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- Chrunch_Houston
Health Care for Everyone
- Thread starter Danoff
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- Rule 12
- GTP_Famine
And that's all that "a government" should be. Not what we understand by the term today - just the people.
Well... I got married in California if that helps?Are you sure you aren't an American, not a current American, but an old school American.
I'm not sure I live in America anymore.
HenrySwanson
(Banned)
- 2,942
- United Kingdom
Did that impromptu "poll" taken about government health care when Sanders was at that fox debate mean much? Are American attitudes shifting away from the private insurance model? I'll try to find the article that highlighted this
I think if it was the UK it would have ended because of premature death
- 20,976
- NJ/USA
- Blitzbay
- Blitzbay
It's funny. After leaving my job earlier this year I also lost my health insurance and because keeping the same plan would have cost me $850 (and I didn't know that I needed to elect something within 60 days), I now am ineligible to purchase health insurance until the end of the year. So the downside is that I really cannot afford to visit a doctor until then.
The upside? Somehow my medication costs LESS than it would have had I still been on that plan.
The upside? Somehow my medication costs LESS than it would have had I still been on that plan.
- 5,051
- Netherlands
The statement suggest more then 2. I dont think it is fair to assume that based on 1 anecdotal case.
While I found some evidence suggesting that there are canadians frustrated with waiting lists and wealthier people wanting to avoid waiting lists altogether. Evidence actually suggests the opposite:
https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-d...-america-overseas-health-care-just-canadians/
https://www.newsweek.com/caravan-am...an-border-get-affordable-medical-care-1417582
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/...-swarming-the-border-to-get-better-healthcare
https://www.vox.com/2016/10/9/13222798/canadians-seeking-medical-care-us-trump-debate
Danoff
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I don't need to.
63,000 left Canada to get surgery outside of the country in 2016. Here's another report of similar numbers in 2014.
Here's another example specifically to the US (is 3 enough? do you want more):
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/canadian-medical-tourism_n_5949b405e4b0db570d3778ff
Two groups of people really. One group is people without resources looking for government care (America to Canada). The other group is people who have resources and who have been deprioritized by the Canadian government because, for example, while they might be wheelchair bound, they're not dying. That group is willing to buy quality of life for money (Canada to America). My particular anecdote was of the latter. They fled the Canadian healthcare system despite the fact that they are terrified of Trump and are in multiple categories that he routinely makes discriminatory statements toward.
FPV MIC
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- GT-MIC
I find this all a little odd. We have a healthcare system here in Australia where everything is almost free. If you're in need of hospital care it is free. For non-life threatening surgery there's always a waiting list (like Canada), but if you don't want to wait you can choose not to and pay a surgeon of your own choice, in a hospital of your choice, and skip the cues completely (like America). Or you can choose private health care and not have to deal with the public system at all, depending on your level of cover. Can't this be done in Canada without having to leave the country?
Danoff
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It's slightly more complicated than that, since the restrictions are actually on charging for services which are provided by the national system. But basically that means that if you're wheelchair-bound for like a knee injury, and you have the money and want to get back on your feet, you are instead required to wait for your turn (which could take a year or more) and not pay. It would be illegal for someone to charge you to do it sooner. This prompts tourism to the US. The wikipedia article on this highlights some high-profile examples of such medical tourism. Most of the reason for the restriction is to avoid an appearance of inequality. They don't want the "free" system to be the "poor" system, whereas the rich go get good care at their own expense. As a result, everyone has the poor system.
- 11,882
- Marin County
Moral of the story is that if you have a good amount of money you're fine if you live in Canada or in the US. No good option in Canada? Go to the US for treatment.
If you're poor, you really don't belong in the US. Also, being poor isn't a great option in Canada, but marginally better on balance. Being poor is just not advisable, generally.
Danoff
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It is what some high profile Canadians do. Though I think in some cases they end up paying extreme rates to do it and run the risk of prosecution back at home (probably they'd be fine though, because I think the restriction is on charging for service rather than paying for it). Then you have folks like like my relative who was put on a waiting list for something she felt could kill her (but wasn't killing her at the moment). And rather than wait for her life to tick by, or pay gobs and gobs of cash to do it on travel, she immigrated to the US, got a job, health insurance, and got the procedure done in much less time (even with the immigration step).
Edit:
I honestly cannot remember her exact medical condition. It was some kind of thing in her head that needed surgery. She was have extreme bouts of vertigo, waking up vomiting like... every other week or something. She was scared to drive, and was miserable. She was expecting to die basically, but her doctors in Canada felt that she was stable enough (despite the compromised standard of living) to wait for care. I forget how long she was supposed to wait. Anyway she got the surgery here.
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- 410
- Wisconsin
- hogger129
I feel like socialized health care will just pay for free coverage for people who don't want to work. More free money for lazy or irresponsible people. It's bad enough all the wastes of welfare we have now. This will bankrupt the system.
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- 9,401
- Western Sydney
- mustafur
But it doesn't and is objectively cheaper.
The people your talking about is such a low percentage of total population it isn't enough to make it more expensive, besides how many people you know like to even go to the doctor, people would rather do anything else with their time, just because something is free doesn't mean everyone will abuse it because they have nothing better to do.
My Dad had a mild Heart attack and needed to get Open Heart surgery in 2015, being the type of person that hates to make a fuss he took over a week to even tell anyone it happened but from the moment he notified the doctor he had surgery within 2 weeks, he could still live without it for a longer period but he was able to skip the queue, apart from the medications(which are subsidised on a price that is already subsidised compared to the US) everything didn't cost a cent.
It's all well and good having Better care, but actually having care in the first place without bankrupting your family goes along way.
Australia does have the Private option though if you want to go in that direction and if you do that your Fees are subsidised(as your paying tax on a public service your not using at that point).
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Danoff
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I think you would probably find that to be generally the case with circumstances that are "typical". We paid tiny amounts (like $100 or something) for childbirth in a hospital. I think the bills were something like $30k or more for each one, but insurance handled it. The thing is, these institutions are set up partly with childbirth and heart attacks in mind. They sail through diagnosis, approval, and treatment. I'm glad that your dad didn't have to wait any longer than he did to get care. Heart attacks can reoccur though, so I'm not surprised that he got prioritized above other people who were waiting. When you say "skip the queue", you mean people were waiting and waited longer because of your dad. I understand the concept of triage, they probably did the right thing. What I mean to say here is that your case is common, obvious, and routine.
It doesn't take much to get out of the norm when it comes to medicine though, and when it does, you suddenly find yourself with doctors disagreeing. I at one point had two doctors telling me I didn't need a brain MRI, and one telling me that it was essential. Eventually one of them flipped and I had the MRI, which turned out to be normal. Any time diagnosis is unusual, paperwork starts to look odd, and people stop signing off. Also the immediacy of the problem can get lost when it's not something that a reviewer is extremely familiar with. This was the case with my relative. It wasn't "normal" so it didn't sail through, it didn't get recognized, and her day-to-day coping wasn't considered to be on par with what other people were deal with. So she was given a back seat.
It's tempting to say that she should have been given a back seat, since other people were more important. But the only reason she was given a back seat was the the government's healthcare budget was set, so if more people need care, they wait.
All of this also greatly diminishes the impact to someone's life that sitting around with a non-life threatening injury can have. Needing to get around in a wheelchair and in pain for a year while you're waiting for knee surgery can have a huge impact on your life. And it's just not going to rise to the level of priority that a life-threatening emergency can have. So if you have a fixed healthcare budget, some of those knee surgeries get put off. And people truly suffer because of it.
Healthcare is a personal decision. It has to be. You're the only one who can know what it is worth, and whether the money should be spent now, or you can wait for care.
- 9,401
- Western Sydney
- mustafur
It can be tough, but you also have the option of Private health here(which includes private hospitals) if you want extra peace of mind, the option is still there for those that can afford.
The way it is with doctors if something doesn't feel right you just got to keep changing doctors, it comes off as a very subjective profession sometimes until something is actually found, I know this first hand with my manager at my last job, he had chronic headaches for months until it became unbearable and he went to the doctors and they couldn't find anything so he just kept changing doctors until he got to his 4th one that told him he had skin cancer that spread to his brain, thankfully he is still alive although it is still critical, but shows you that when it comes to this stuff your dedication to making sure you know what it is is vital to understand the issue.
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Not surgery only, but medical treatment. In the conclusion it is speculated that the main reasons are to avoid waiting times, more advanced technology/treatment and higher quality facilities.
One of the sources I posted says there are 250.000 americans leaving the country to outside the USA. And that is mainly people who can afford to seek medical treatment abroad. But I already highlighted that although it has its fault, the american system is not better.
Danoff
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Whether it's better depends on what aspect of it you're looking at. The American system is undeniably better at certain things, especially when compared to Canada, but arguably when compared to (perhaps nearly) all countries. There are certainly aspects of the American system that are quite poor too.
America has a higher population than Canada (10x higher), so I'd expect the US numbers to be higher.
- 5,051
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The ones who do seek treatment abroad are more likely to have a higher income. Even the report suggested one of the factors is to avoid the long waiting lists. While do I believe american healthcare itself is great. Its cost is much higher then other countries. People in a wealthy country should not have to chose between enormous debt or life-saving/altering treatment.
Danoff
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What's your point? They're less important?
That is literally why my relative fled Canada. She was concerned about dying on the waiting list, and definitely was not willing to accept the quality of life on the waiting list.
That is one of the bad things about the US system.
No one can make the decision but them.
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Danoff
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How on earth do you come to that conclusion?
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