Health Care for Everyone

  • Thread starter Danoff
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No, you asked only about cost or spending - true cost or true spending? That's not a question about my view, that's a factual question you can find on the internet, again, if you cared. And the true cost and true spending, yes, the U.S. is ripping itself off.

As best I can tell it was your statement. You didn't cite it so I assume that you did the research yourself. I was merely asking you to qualify your statements.

Here's a nice thread on this on another board.

First of all, you should qualify that thread with an

EXPLICIT LANGUAGE WARNING

Secondly I thought this was interesting, right off the top.

Where's my ****ing affordable health care, you ****ing ****? [lame]
My wife recently had to quit work due to a degenerative neurological condition-slash-brain deformity. For the curious, she's got seven-year-old, basically untreated RSD progressing on one side of her body, and the back of her brain is hanging out the bottom of her skull. This has made it increasingly more difficult for her to work. In January, we decided it was better that she stay home, rest, recuperate, etc, and try to lead some semblance of a fufilled life than put herself through the agony and shame of attempting to lever herself out of bed every morning to make it in to the office, and only make it half the time.

We figured that I'm making enought for the two of us to live on, she's probably eligable for disability, and once I'm done with school, I should be making more than enough for her to look for a satisfying carreer that she can physically handle. In the intervening couple of years, her only job is to try to get better.

The only thing we were concerned about is health insurance. See, she worked for a large public agency that, while currently underfunded and laying people off, is big enough to negotiate a relatively sweet deal for the employees. Sure, the out-of-pocket has doubled in the past three years, but compared to what everybody else is getting, it's not too bad.

I work for a company with less than twenty employees. While the straight-up pay and up-front tuition is nice, they're getting absolutely KILLED on insurance costs. Understandable, of course. Our pissant little business can't really bring a lot of pressure to bear on any of the three local insurance providers to get a better deal.

So anyway, I went to get my wife's monthly prescription refills yesterday. I paid $342.something in co-pays. $342!!! I realize that a lot of people have it a lot worse, and maybe the fact that this is a particularly tight month is exaggerating the effect, but come-on, that's a metric ****-ton of money.

Sure, $342 is a lot of money, but the guy's wife has a "degenerative neurological condition-slash-brain deformity". That's pretty freaking serious (right?). He should be expecting to pay at least that much if not more to pay for health care to cover that.

What does this guy think goes on around here? If his wife gets a "degenerative neurological condition-slash-brain deformity" then that's not supposed to impact his checkbook? Tough luck for the rest of us but we have to pay up for his wife's "degenerative neurological condition-slash-brain deformity"? I don't think so.

Dude, its your wife's health, perhaps it's worth a little more than $300 a month to take care of her.
 
It's true. I can have deep sympathy for the couple's plight without feeling compelled to provide health care for them. On the flip side, if I got sicker or injured I would not expect anyone to feel compelled to help me. I don't expect to be insulated from life.
 
Duke
It's true. I can have deep sympathy for the couple's plight without feeling compelled to provide health care for them.

That's helpful...

"Oh I'm sorry for your pain but... *shrugs* I just don't feel like helping to pay for it."

On the flip side, if I got sicker or injured I would not expect anyone to feel compelled to help me. I don't expect to be insulated from life.

Just because you wouldn't EXPECT anyone to help doesn't mean that there won't be people who feel compelled to help (be it financially, physically etc). How can anyone be so detached???
 
Just because you wouldn't EXPECT anyone to help doesn't mean that there won't be people who feel compelled to help (be it financially, physically etc). How can anyone be so detached???

If you feel compelled to help, nothing is stopping you. Give all the money you want. You can go volunteer to handle all of her medical bills - but that's a little different then forcing someone to help, or feeling entitled to everyone else's help like this guy does.
 
MrktMkr1986
That's helpful...

"Oh I'm sorry for your pain but... *shrugs* I just don't feel like helping to pay for it."
You keep cutting this apart from its other half: "I appreciate your concern, but that's life. I'll get by." Of course I appear to be a monster since you repeatedly imply that nobody is willing to take responsibility for their own lives.
How can anyone be so detached???
Because I expect to shoulder my own burdens. I don't cry out at the injustice of life when I see somebody richer than I or smarter than I or prettier than I or stronger than I or more talented than I.

I've played the hand I was dealt. It was not a terrible hand at all but many have had better. I work for what I need and want and have ignored what I'm unwilling or unable to work for.

I don't see it as society's job to protect me from calamity, be it naturally random or self-induced. I was given life - I've got nothing else I can ask for, let alone expect or demand. It's up to me to survive it.

I save money instead of spending it all. I'm reasonably careful and prudent in most of my buying decisions. I buy life and disability and health insurance and I budget for things they don't cover. I invest for my retirement. I plan for my future and allow contingency for things over which I have no control. I keep enough money in the bank to go without a job for a minimum of 90 days.

I could go out this afternoon and buy a nice car for myself. But I drive a well-worn, 10-year-old Neon that needs paint. It does its job and doesn't need to be replaced. I live within my means.

In short, I think ahead. I don't expect and don't want anybody to do that for me.

If a tsunami hit the East Coast and wiped out this part of the world, yes I would gratefully accept immediate disaster-relief aid. Dan and I have both already acknowledged the worth of emergency services. I contribute to several charities and I willingly contributed to tsunami relief. But after the immediate need of dry clothes and a few days' food I've already got contingency plans and insurance to reurn my family to its feet. I don't feel it is society's job to do that for me, just because it's easy to assign that responsibility to everybody while ignoring the fact that "everybody" is nothing but a collection of individuals just like me.

Let me tell you a little story:

In the late '80s I lived in St. Louis. During '87 and '88 there was prolonged drought in that area. We had very little rain, crops were difficult to grow, and the Mississippi's water level fell dramatically. It was impossible to move most cargo up and down the river.

Farmers - both small family farms and huge agribusinesses - lobbied hard for, and got, a huge relief package from the government in order to cover their losses and crop failures. This, of course, in addition to the subsidies they were already taking to keep prices up. "Society" paid to insulate these farmers from the circumstances of their own lives.

Someone in the government finally noticed that another group was being hit hard by the drought - river tug operators. River tugs also run the gamut from large logistics firms to small owner-operator families (just like trucking) who have their entire lives invested in a single boat (some even live aboard the tug). Yet these people hadn't said a word, hadn't hired lobbyists, hadn't written letters, etc.

The government took it upon themselves to offer the operators relief money, both individually and through their professional association. Almost unanimously, it was rejected. Most seemed surprised anyone would even consider the idea. The official response from the river tug operators' association ran along the lines of "Thanks anyway, but we consider the recent difficulties as part of the nature of being in this business. When there's too much rain the river's too fast to navigate; when there's not enough rain the river's too shallow. This cycle hasn't changed in some time and so we've learned to expect bad conditions now and then." Of course it was more formally worded, but that was the gist of it.

Bad stuff happens. I'll pitch in during emergencies and I'll accept emergency aid. Note the word emergency there. An 'emergency' is something sudden, drastic, and unexpected.

But I don't see how it's more moral to expect every person to be responsible for every other person in the world on a chronic, life-long basis. I don't want "society" to be responsible for my survival. I would never expect some individual to support me, no matter how wealthy. Society is nothing but individuals - why would I expect or want to have the power of slavery over many individuals if I don't want it over one?

The altruistic 'ideal' renders us all as slave to and master of others combined. I find that frankly horrifying. How much cleaner and better that we each be our own masters, and there are no slaves at all!
 
I guess on health care I turn into a socialist ..I do not see that man expecting something for nothing..I see a guy who's scared for his wife because he may not be able to afford to keep her alive. basic health care in the US should be affordable for everyone. how to get it that way is the question ...not should we. Its a disgrace that the US should be ranked any less than no 1 in the heath care field . if we can afford to go to Iraq and free them and administer the country while and aid people all over the world with defense than the least we should be able to do is guarantee the people of the US good basic affordable health care. f*#k philosophy.
 
I guess on health care I turn into a socialist ..I do not see that man expecting something for nothing..I see a guy who's scared for his wife because he may not be able to afford to keep her alive. basic health care in the US should be affordable for everyone. how to get it that way is the question ...not should we. Its a disgrace that the US should be ranked any less than no 1 in the heath care field . if we can afford to go to Iraq and free them and administer the country while and aid people all over the world with defense than the least we should be able to do is guarantee the people of the US good basic affordable health care. f*#k philosophy.

What procedures must be affordable, medicine, pills, brain surgery? What does affordable mean? Affordable for anyone's salary? Some people make nothing.

I do not see that man expecting something for nothing..I see a guy who's scared for his wife because he may not be able to afford to keep her alive.

He is expecting something for nothing. He's expecting society to pick up the tab because he thinks it's worth other people's money to keep his wife alive - but how can he make that decision about other people's property - he has no sense of the cost of accumulating that money... obviously when it comes to his own money he feels even $300 pretty hard, yet he doesn't feel it at all if he steals $500 of someone else's cash.

If I am striken tomorrow with a brain disorder - it's my life. As Duke was saying, we play the hand we have. I'll pay what I can afford to keep myself alive, my family and extended family would probably pay what they can afford, some people might even donate to me if I were a particularly sad case, but beyond what I can provide for myself I expect nothing.

I can't afford a 10 million dollar procedure to save my life. I'm fine with that. A year ago that procedure probably didn't exist and I would have died without any possible hope of a cure, it's existance doesn't make me entitled to be able to afford it.

What wrong are you willing to do to other people to save my life? Are you willing to steal from them? Force them to work to save my life? Perhaps you're willing to shoot one of them. All of them are wrongs committed against an innocent person for the sake of another. My life is not their problem, my disease is not anyone's issue but my own and perhap my family. Duke hit the nail on the head with that excellent post.
 
its a question of being able to do it and not doing it. Its a question of proportion . Its a question of will .We will spend money to send men to the moon and explore mars . We will spend money to protect Europe from the Europeans . We will spend money to feed starving people in Africa . We will spend money on enough weapons to destroy the world 500 times over. But will we spend the money to insure that all Americans can afford basic health care ?
I attatch the same importance to education and health as I do national defense.
Where's my ****ing affordable health care, you ****ing ****? [lame] ETC. ETC.
I do not see him asking for free health care ..He wants to pay a reasonable price for it..he wants to be ableto AFFORD it. No American should die because he cant pay for health care F*&K that.... its wrong ! No friggin wonder you cant get a libertarian elected ! In the real world you do not tell people "screw you you dont have the money go die" . hell of a platform...You are free to die .
" A society is best judged by how it treats its weakest members "
 
I attatch the same importance to education and health as I do national defense.

The first two can be served best by the free market, while the market doesn't provide for national defense or pure research and exploration (which I would argue is part of national defense).

hell of a platform...You are free to die .

That's responsibility. It's responsibility for your choices and your life to be free to die, free to fail, free to starve. Of course charity always plays a big role in these situations. People who feel strongly about these cases (like yourself) should feel free to donate as much as you want - but why do you feel it is right to force me to "donate"?

I do not see him asking for free health care ..He wants to pay a reasonable price for it..he wants to be ableto AFFORD it.

You sidestepped my question. What exactly should he be able to afford? The market value of the service is higher than he wants to pay. If he doesn't pay for the service he's getting he's getting something for nothing. But what should he be able to afford? I argue that there is basically nothing that he has a right to afford, you argue otherwise - so quantify it. A pill? Brain surgery? A rare operation that only one person on the planet knows how to perform - and he wants to charge 50 million dollars? Who decides? And why do they get to decide what the average joe should be able to afford and what the rest of us have to pay?
 
I don't know how you can deny people of treatment that is critical to their well being, simply because they don't have enough money. It's easy to type that they deserve to die because they didn't play their cards in life properly. But when it happens to someone you care about, trust me, you'll start to realize how poor of a system it is. Healthcare isn't a business, it's a critical service.
 
I don't know how you can deny people of treatment that is critical to their well being, simply because they don't have enough money. It's easy to type that they deserve to die because they didn't play their cards in life properly. But when it happens to someone you care about, trust me, you'll start to realize how poor of a system it is. Healthcare isn't a business, it's a critical service.

Ok, so is food then right? And water? And electricity? People need money too so let's give them a job as well.

Healthcare is a business. It's not a critical service. Healthcare used to be putting leeches on you to drain you of blood when you had a fever. Healthcare used to not exist. Today it exists, but it's not like humanity can't do without it - we just wouldn't live as long.

This argument that I would sing a different tune if it happened to someone I love is thrown at me all the time. I would not sing a different tune. My parents spend all of their money as soon as they get it - living hand to mouth, blowing cash on everything they want right now. They seem not to have care in the world about retirement, which is now very near them.

I love my parents, but they're going to have a miserable retirment because of poor choices they made earlier in their lives. They're going to have to deal with that. They won't be able to afford great health care in their old age and will die a little earlier than they otherwise would have. That was their decision - they'll get to live (die) with it.

If I were stricken with a rare disease that I could not afford. Let's say the disease costs $500,000 dollars to treat. I would try to get a loan for the amount, and if I weren't able to? If there were no charity coming to me? I would die. And I would be fine with that. That's what I earned. I was dealt a raw hand (an early death) and I wasn't able to overcome it in the 24 years I've been on this Earth. So I would die. Would I feel entitled to every possible course of action that anyone on the planet could take to save my life? No. If my wife were dying, would I change my tune? No.

Health care is a business. You are not entitled to anyone else's productivity. You have no right to force a doctor to save your life, you have no right to steal someone else's property to save your life, and I also do not have that right.
 
You can base the cost as a percentage of income before a subsidy kicks in . Anything that is life threatening should be covered( period ) along with basic care. Elective surgery would not. the subsidy would come into play for those that are uninsured or underinsured . A flat tax on income would pay for the program. it would not be difficult nor expensive to subsidise care for everyone. It also would not be free . There is such a thing as middle ground. No one in the US should be told you can not afford to live because of health care .
If I were stricken with a rare disease that I could not afford. Let's say the disease costs $500,000 dollars to treat. I would try to get a loan for the amount, and if I weren't able to? If there were no charity coming to me? I would die. And I would be fine with that. That's what I earned. I was dealt a raw hand (an early death) and I wasn't able to overcome it in the 24 years I've been on this Earth. So I would die. Would I feel entitled to every possible course of action that anyone on the planet could take to save my life? No. If my wife were dying, would I change my tune? No.
If this is what is is to be a libertarian are you not suprised you fail to get elected ? the average guy see 's space shuttles flying around being paid for with his money . The same guy cant afford a doctor ...you have problems.
 
You can base the cost as a percentage of income before a subsidy kicks in . Anything that is life threatening should be covered( period ) along with basic care. Elective surgery would not. the subsidy would come into play for those that are uninsured or underinsured . A flat tax on income would pay for the program. it would not be difficult nor expensive to subsidise care for everyone. It also would not be free . There is such a thing as middle ground. No one in the US should be told you can not afford to live .

So then I assume that you think we should fund a food and shelter program for the poor as well with tax dollars (rather than charity)? Since not being able to afford food would be life threatening...

At least you're not advocating that we have a socialized heatlh care system. You're talking about giving free services to poor people, but leaving the rest of it in the market - that's much better than forcing everyone to go to government run hospitals and offices.

I understand that you don't want to see people suffer. But do they have a right not to suffer? You can give them your money, but where do you get off giving them my money, or my neighbor's money? Just because you think their need deserves it... Perhaps I don't want to fund a drug addict. Perhaps I don't want to give my money to someone with a gambling problem, or an alcohol problem, or who was convicted of beating his wife, or convicted of armed robbery, or who prays to Satan, or who prays to Jesus Christ. Perhaps, for whatever reason, I am morally opposed to helping one of your charity cases. Why do you feel that I should be forced to help? You, afterall, are free to do so.

If this is what is is to be a libertarian are you not suprised you fail to get elected ? the average guy see 's space shuttles flying around being paid for with his money . The same guy cant afford a doctor ...you have problems.

You mean he doesn't want to pay more than $300 for pills for his wife's neurological disease. You mean that he doesn't want to pay as much as he does for a doctor - not that he can't afford it. And if he can't afford it, then he barely pays for the shuttle, he barely pays for any of the services he uses (as do I). Something like 80% of all income tax is paid for by the top 5% of earners.

So you mean to say that he sees the shuttle flying around that other people paid for and thinks "their money should have gone to me".
 
danoff
Ok, so is food then right? And water? And electricity? People need money too so let's give them a job as well.

Healthcare is a business. It's not a critical service. Healthcare used to be putting leeches on you to drain you of blood when you had a fever. Healthcare used to not exist. Today it exists, but it's not like humanity can't do without it - we just wouldn't live as long.

This argument that I would sing a different tune if it happened to someone I love is thrown at me all the time. I would not sing a different tune. My parents spend all of their money as soon as they get it - living hand to mouth, blowing cash on everything they want right now. They seem not to have care in the world about retirement, which is now very near them.

I love my parents, but they're going to have a miserable retirment because of poor choices they made earlier in their lives. They're going to have to deal with that. They won't be able to afford great health care in their old age and will die a little earlier than they otherwise would have. That was their decision - they'll get to live (die) with it.

If I were stricken with a rare disease that I could not afford. Let's say the disease costs $500,000 dollars to treat. I would try to get a loan for the amount, and if I weren't able to? If there were no charity coming to me? I would die. And I would be fine with that. That's what I earned. I was dealt a raw hand (an early death) and I wasn't able to overcome it in the 24 years I've been on this Earth. So I would die. Would I feel entitled to every possible course of action that anyone on the planet could take to save my life? No. If my wife were dying, would I change my tune? No.

Health care is a business. You are not entitled to anyone else's productivity. You have no right to force a doctor to save your life, you have no right to steal someone else's property to save your life, and I also do not have that right.
Well, it seems there is no way to change your mind on this, because we both clearly have a very different value placed on a human life. I don't care what you think, but in my opinion, everyone should be entitled to recieve the basics of life as long as they are (or already have, in the case of retirement) contributing members of society.
 
Well, it seems there is no way to change your mind on this, because we both clearly have a very different value placed on a human life.

That's right. I value it whereas you seem to not.
 
The way the welfare or " workfare" system is set up in the US today no one needs to starve. Those that are unable to provide food for themselves and thier familys need to be helped to provide for themselves. if you are born in the US you should be able to expect a minimum of food and shelter until you can provide for yourself . ONLY BECAUSE WE CAN DO IT . We are not a poor country. Would you like to see all the social programs in this country be disolved ?
BTW ...What are missing here ?
Your response :
So you mean to say that he sees the shuttle flying around that other people paid for and thinks "their money should have gone to me".
my quote:
If this is what is is to be a libertarian are you not suprised you fail to get elected ? the average guy see 's space shuttles flying around being paid for with his money . The same guy cant afford a doctor ...you have problems.
You do see the HIS MONEY part right ? Voters slash taxpayers ?
Now lets talk again about who's words are being twisted.
 
I don't value human life? What are you smoking? I'm the one who doesn't want to leave people out in the cold when they have a serious illness that requires costly treatment!
 
my quote:

If this is what is is to be a libertarian are you not suprised you fail to get elected ? the average guy see 's space shuttles flying around being paid for with his money . The same guy cant afford a doctor ...you have problems.

You do see the HIS MONEY part right ? Voters slash taxpayers ?
Now lets talk again about who's words are being twisted.

The average guy doesn't pay for but a tiny portion of the government he enjoys. The average guy accounts for (I'm guessing) 5% of all income tax? Maybe 10? So he didn't really pay for the shuttle, other people did, and he won't pay for his doctor's fees, other people will. The average guy gets a nice ride, which is why the average guy advocates expanding govenrment services - he doesn't pay for them and he doesn't mind screwing his neighbor.

I don't value human life? What are you smoking? I'm the one who doesn't want to leave people out in the cold when they have a serious illness that requires costly treatment!

I didn't say people should be left out in the cold whne they have a serious illness. I would donate to charity (if it weren't forcibly taken from me). Others would donate to charity. If they didn't donate then yes, people are heartless and the dude would die.

I value his life, but not above principles. You do not seem to value the lives of the people who would be stolen from to pay for this guy's medical treatment - medical treatment that he refuses to work for. I value life, I value his right to control his life and others' rights to control theirs. You on the otherhand refuse to let him take responsibility for his decisions and refuse to let others enjoy the fruits of theirs.

I value life and the liberty of life. You do not seem to.
 
Ev0
I don't know how you can deny people of treatment that is critical to their well being, simply because they don't have enough money. It's easy to type that they deserve to die because they didn't play their cards in life properly. But when it happens to someone you care about, trust me, you'll start to realize how poor of a system it is. Healthcare isn't a business, it's a critical service.
I don't expect treatment I can't afford, whether it's critical or not. Right now I'm suffering with a hernia until I can afford the time and money to get it corrected.

My father died 8 years ago from cardiopulmonary cancer. There were additional treatments available that may have saved or prolonged his life. We couldn't afford them. Or, more accurately, we could have afforded them but it would have left my mother without provision for her future. He chose not to do that.

Don't tell me I'll change my tune when it's someone I care about.
Ev0
Well, it seems there is no way to change your mind on this, because we both clearly have a very different value placed on a human life. I don't care what you think, but in my opinion, everyone should be entitled to recieve the basics of life as long as they are (or already have, in the case of retirement) contributing members of society.
I place the utmost value on human life. I intend to work as hard as necessary to keep myself and those I love alive. I value life a lot.

Here's the issue with your system: define "contributing". Define "basics". A ditch digger contributes to society. Does he contribute enough to offset the value of a brain surgeon who can cure the laborer's wife? Who decides?

And once you start that, where do you stop? Food and shelter are much more important and immediate needs than health care. And if health care is a necessity, isn't transportation?

As soon as you shift from emergency-aid to chronic charity, you open up this entire problem. And you immediately make every human being a potential slave to every other human being with a 'need'.
 
danoff
I didn't say people should be left out in the cold whne they have a serious illness. I would donate to charity (if it weren't forcibly taken from me). Others would donate to charity. If they didn't donate then yes, people are heartless and the dude would die.

Why take that risk? Is it worth the life of another human being?

I value his life, but not above principles.

So principles take priority over human life. That is quite disturbing.

You do not seem to value the lives of the people who would be stolen from to pay for this guy's medical treatment - medical treatment that he refuses to work for.

First of all, wouldn't it be safe to assume the person WAS working before they needed medical treatment? What if market prices dictate that even though he is a hard working citizen he STILL wouldn't be able to afford a particular procedure.

Why are you valuing the life of elite above that of the poor?

I value life, I value his right to control his life and others' rights to control theirs. You on the otherhand refuse to let him take responsibility for his decisions and refuse to let others enjoy the fruits of theirs.

Someone's been reading too much Heinlein.

I value life and the liberty of life. You do not seem to.

You also value the life and liberty of the elite.
 
Try running for office by telling the average guy he's a freeloader like you just did. :) it may even be partialy true ...but you try to tell him his taxes cant go towards his health instead of a space shuttle. before you can change anything you have to at least get elected. :)
 
Try running for office by telling the average guy he's a freeloader like you just did. it may even be partialy true ...but you try to tell him his taxes cant go towards his health instead of a space shuttle. before you can change anything you have to at least get elected.

Ah yes, the tyranny of the majority. Middle class and lower class people make a majority that remove the rights of the rich at will because they are allowed to under our system. It isn't moral and it doesn't work well. This is why a flat tax is so critical. People must all see their paycheck decrease when government gets bigger.
 
Sometime you just have to choose the right battles to fight. if you go at everything all or nothing you will lose ALOT.
 
Sometime you just have to choose the right battles to fight. if you go at everything all or nothing you will lose ALOT.

I'm not talking about what can be done or what the public will bear here - that's a different discussion. I'm talking about what is right.
 
Well most times the winner decides whats right. :) Its all good as a philosophy to follow but the actual implementation is a tough sell. It seems it wont work unless everyone is indoctrinated into that philosophy . or you can ignore the ones who are not or will not go along with the program.
 
danoff
I'm not talking about what can be done or what the public will bear here - that's a different discussion. I'm talking about what is right.

By YOUR definition of right? What gives you the right to tell me what is right and what it wrong?
 
MrktMkr1986
So principles take priority over human life. That is quite disturbing.
Then I assume human life takes precedence over principles. Fine. Now I can kill you and take your money to live on, and repeat as often as necessary to stay alive. Or I can enslave you and force you to work for me... or 'society'.

Human life takes precedence over prinicples, after all.

Here's a little secret - principles are a big part of what separates human life from animals and savages.
ledhed
Try running for office by telling the average guy he's a freeloader like you just did. :) it may even be partialy true ...but you try to tell him his taxes cant go towards his health instead of a space shuttle. before you can change anything you have to at least get elected. :)
Remember - the public will always vote themselves bread and circuses.
 
Duke
Then I assume human life takes precedence over principles. Fine. Now I can kill you and take your money to live on, and repeat as often as necessary to stay alive. Or I can enslave you and force you to work for me... or 'society'.

Human life takes precedence over prinicples, after all.

Here's a little secret - principles are a big part of what separates human life from animals and savages.

So who gets to define these principles then?
 
Each person has the right to own their own life and pursue their own happiness, consistent with not infringing on that same right for others.

Ta-da! Done. And self-stabilizing, too, thanks to that contingency.
 
Duke
Each person has the right to own their own life and pursue their own happiness, consistent with not infringing on that same right for others.

Ta-da! Done. And self-stabilizing, too, thanks to that contingency.

To me, denying someone life saving healthcare is robbing them of the right to life.
 
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