Heel and Toe Shifting

[wnffe]

if you watch the Drift Bible, it's actually a technique used called the "Shift Lock".

Basically you go into turn in 3rd gear as you're turning into turn.
then you downshift to 2nd WITHOUT Rev-matching. (clutch in, down to 2nd, clutch out, no gas).

What it does is shock or Upset the drive-train. Each gear can go a certain speed. In 3rd gear at 3krpm you are going 45mph. In 2nd gear at 3krpm you are going 20mph. To do 45mph in 2nd gear you have to be in 5krpm. So rev matching going from 3rd/3krpm(45mph) you blip/press the throttle when clutching/shifting-down to 2nd gear so the engine is now in the 5krpm range in 2nd gear which is ALSO 45mph. This creates a SMOOTHE transition from 3rd to 2nd gear. No drive-train shock, or upseting the balance of the car/tires/etc.

So if you're in 3rd gear and just down-shift to 2nd gear. The Engine isn't in the Correct rpm range for that speed. Doing so when the clutch engages the Engine needs to "catch-up" to the correct rpm so it puts drag/resistance on the drive-train. Doing this in a turn when your tires are already reaching their maximum grip level, will put extra force and push it past it's limit where the tire begins to slide/drift.

I hope that helps anyone and very sorry if this went off topic. 👍

[all of the gear/rpm range is just for example. Each cars Gear Ratio and final Drive determine it's speed in a certain gear at a certain RPM.]

-Robert

Yes, I love this 'shift lock' technique for drifting (although it'll damage your drivetrain easily irl).

GT5P simulates this very well for RWD cars as long as the 'clutch' is activated. The rear wheel will slightly lock and without proper heel and toe, it will initiate a drift. You don't want this in racing of course..

And it gets worst when ABS is turned off because you can brake in shorter distance. The car is less stable under braking as more weight transfer to the front means the weight is much much lighter at the rear, thus the rear wheels lock much easier on revs apart from locking from the brakes itself.

So, yes...as long as the clutch is activated, heel and toe does really help me getting better times in GT5P racing since it makes the car more stable...👍

 

[AutoAki]

Yes, I love this 'shift lock' technique for drifting (although it'll damage your drivetrain easily irl).

GT5P simulates this very well for RWD cars as long as the 'clutch' is activated. The rear wheel will slightly lock and without proper heel and toe, it will initiate a drift. You don't want this in racing of course..

And it gets worst when ABS is turned off because you can brake in shorter distance. The car is less stable under braking as more weight transfer to the front means the weight is much much lighter at the rear, thus the rear wheels lock much easier on revs apart from locking from the brakes itself.

So, yes...as long as the clutch is activated, heel and toe does really help me getting better times in GT5P racing since it makes the car more stable...👍

So you say GT5P does simulate real clutch working?

With DFP, if I switch gears down, and accidentally switch one gear too much, it wont lock my rear-tyres... it only sounds terrible when engine is banging against limiter, but it wont spin like in real situation would do.

 

[wnffe]

So you say GT5P does simulate real clutch working?

With DFP, if I switch gears down, and accidentally switch one gear too much, it wont lock my rear-tyres... it only sounds terrible when engine is banging against limiter, but it wont spin like in real situation would do.

It won't work with DFP because 'auto-blipping' is on forever. As I said, it only works when 'clutch is activated'..if you are using G25 or equivalent!! Not with DFP for sure..

Get a G25 or something similar if you want that to work. The clutch will not be progressive but it is adequate for heel and toe..

 

[MrKipling43]

I tried this last night and, providing that you've activated the clutch (depress clutch, put in correct gear, press triangle to kill the engine, release clutch to start engine) heal-toeing does make a difference to your corner entry.

It's far smoother if you rev match.

 

[AutoAki]

I tried this last night and, providing that you've activated the clutch (depress clutch, put in correct gear, press triangle to kill the engine, release clutch to start engine) heal-toeing does make a difference to your corner entry.

It's far smoother if you rev match.

...so it is possible to make car to spin example in Suzuka hairpin, if you push clutch down early... let rpm's go down... select 1st gear and lift clutch while turning?

Then I've misunderstanded opinions that some peoples have said about how 'arcade-style' clutch is working in GT5P. This new info sounds to me, that when PD adds progressivity to clutch, it's quite near perfect then.

 

[wnffe]

...so it is possible to make car to spin example in Suzuka hairpin, if you push clutch down early... let rpm's go down... select 1st gear and lift clutch while turning?

Then I've misunderstanded opinions that some peoples have said about how 'arcade-style' clutch is working in GT5P. This new info sounds to me, that when PD adds progressivity to clutch, it's quite near perfect then.

If you like having fun with drifting..yes, 'Shift lock' and 'Clutch kick' works fine. However, it is not near perfect because the clutch is just on/ off at the moment and there is no damage..

These means the wheel will just lock momentarily during over revs. There is no damage to the drivetrain that will make the gear stuck or completely jammed that makes the car spin out like there is no tomorrow.

And because there is no damage, you can just drop from 4th gear to 1st but it only makes the rear wheels lock very briefly. The engine can only screams without blowing up..

Anyway, dropping from 4th to 1st without braking is just common sense how to destroy a car and of course I don't want to do that irl. It is adequate, it still punishes me if I do it completely wrong (by under or oversteer) and that is enough to keep me improve my real life driving at limit...

I strongly say that the clutch is not arcadish! This is not the clutch like NFS or Midnite Club for sure. Neither it is not as real as LFS'S nor Iracing's, it is good enough to make me smile 👍

 

[AutoAki]

If you like having fun with drifting..yes, 'Shift lock' and 'Clutch kick' works fine. However, it is not near perfect because the clutch is just on/ off at the moment and there is no damage..

These means the wheel will just lock momentarily during over revs. There is no damage to the drivetrain that will make the gear stuck or completely jammed that makes the car spin out like there is no tomorrow.

And because there is no damage, you can just drop from 4th gear to 1st but it only makes the rear wheels lock very briefly. The engine can only screams without blowing up..

Anyway, dropping from 4th to 1st without braking is just common sense how to destroy a car and of course I don't want to do that irl. It is adequate, it still punishes me if I do it completely wrong (by under or oversteer) and that is enough to keep me improve my real life driving at limit...

I strongly say that the clutch is not arcadish! This is not the clutch like NFS or Midnite Club for sure. Neither it is not as real as LFS'S nor Iracing's, it is good enough to make me smile 👍

Thanks... you just ended my considerings about buying 'two weeks used G25', which I saw in second-hand markets forum here in Finland.

Guy who is selling it lives few miles from me, and asks 190€, and he have receipts which shows there is still almost 2years warranty left. I think I can get it some tenths cheaper, and finally end this wheel-fever which I've had almost year!

 

[wnffe]

Anytime mate 👍..I would say.. anybody who likes car control, G25 is worth every penny. 900 degrees and clutch are must have.

But if I just want to race..any steering wheel with good FFB should be adequate...

 

[vr6wantsr20det]

hmm...i must go home and try this tonight. I have definately been using the clutch kick for drifting, but never attempted the shift-lock. I just wish they would put back the power-shifting so we can go from 2nd to 3rd with high revs and lots of wheel-spin.

I didn't think the heel toe-worked because i always have the clutch engaged. Racing/drifting and i will barrel into a turn and just hit the brakes, clutch in/out as i'm down shifting but NOT applying throttle. Never fealt the car get squierrely or unsettled. I will have some fun tonight experiementing. 👍

 

[wnffe]

hmm...i must go home and try this tonight. I have definately been using the clutch kick for drifting, but never attempted the shift-lock. I just wish they would put back the power-shifting so we can go from 2nd to 3rd with high revs and lots of wheel-spin.

I didn't think the heel toe-worked because i always have the clutch engaged. Racing/drifting and i will barrel into a turn and just hit the brakes, clutch in/out as i'm down shifting but NOT applying throttle. Never fealt the car get squierrely or unsettled. I will have some fun tonight experiementing. 👍

As you recall earlier, 'shift lock' (see @4.05 and above). Try and mimic it on a long sweeper, you wont be dissapointed!. I always do it at Eiger's last corner.👍

 

[Zmann42087]

I tried this last night and, providing that you've activated the clutch (depress clutch, put in correct gear, press triangle to kill the engine, release clutch to start engine) heal-toeing does make a difference to your corner entry.

It's far smoother if you rev match.

I disagree. I have a G25 and drive with the clutch enabled. Not heel-toe downshifting really makes no difference.

And if it is making a difference and I'm just not noticing it, it must very very small and not very realistic. Without rev matching your downshifts, traction should be upset or even lost as the drivetrain is shocked and the tires drag a little bit to match the engine speed. You get none of this in GT5 with a G25.

 

[BRracing_Rob_91]

I use this ,is very usefull to me ,but i had dificult to hold down heel and toe.Now i do automaticly .

 

[wnffe]

I disagree. I have a G25 and drive with the clutch enabled. Not heel-toe downshifting really makes no difference.

And if it is making a difference and I'm just not noticing it, it must very very small and not very realistic. Without rev matching your downshifts, traction should be upset or even lost as the drivetrain is shocked and the tires drag a little bit to match the engine speed. You get none of this in GT5 with a G25.

It's there. The effect is just small apparently. You really need to feel it. I know it is really difficult to feel oversteer in the game because of no real force... Using low grip N tyres and setting the suspension super soft will make the effect slightly greater (Partly because of bad suspension model I suppose).

I would not say it is not realistic though, otherwise the 'shift-lock' would not be possible in GT5P. Saying that, so many years ago I had damaged 3 of my previous cars on different track days. All were drive train related damages which cost me fortunes.

Why? Mostly because I was so stubborn not to heal & toe. My reason was, it does not make much different as long as shifting is completed in straight line. I have very limited knowledge back then, just pure stupid bravery. I had only notice the difference until one day I spun badly changing gears in corner. So, even in real life driving at the limit I still felt that way. The effect was not so great unless you make very bad gearing or shifting in corners.

Sorry..please excuse my bed time story..I think I'm getting old..haha
👍

 

[vr6wantsr20det]

I was playing around last night in the Time Trial mode on Eiger. I was using the Rx7 and N3 tires. Let me just say i have new found respect for the "stock" cars. I'm always drifting in the "drift mode" since i can play with suspension/power/weight settings. But the Rx7 was a blast bone stock. (think i'm just getting better).

Anyways the shift-lock DEFINATELY works, i tried it a bunch of times. For me anyways when i went into turn in 3rd gear, clutch-in, down to 2nd, clutch-out without blipping the throttle, and you could hear the tires jerk/squeel and the rear-end start to slide. From there just applied throttle and through the turn drifting i went! I noticed with the stock settings having to do a lot more clutch kicks to keep the car sliding in certain section. But good time overall.

The heel-toe also seemed to help a "little" in turns. I tried just down shifting on the brakes without the heel-toe and the rear-end seemed a little less stable. The heel-toe did seem to improve the stability of the car into the turn, but it wasn't a HUGE noticeable difference. It could also be in my head.

on a side note i picked up the Tunned Lotus 111r and that little car is a beast. I just left stock settings, i just upped the power to MAX and that thing can move. The heel-toe seemed to help the MR car keep the rear-end in line a bit better. The lift-off oversteer on that car can get pretty serious, especially when applying brakes. When i didn't heel-toe it fealt like it wanted to slide/drift a lot easier (needed more steering to correct). Once again it could be in my head but overall, the whole heel-toe action seemed to add to the racing/driving experience so even if it didn't help, i enjoyed doing it. 👍

 

[wnffe]

Yeah..stock setting is the way to go for me..More fun since there are more weight shifting throwing around..love that stock RX-7 too but I go even further extreme turning the steering angle to 31 degrees, as in its real life...Now that is 'bone stock'!!

Feels very real as far as I remember driving it sometimes ago...erm..although heel & toe feels a lot lighter with G25!
👍

 

[seckcimike]

I only heel-toe when i have to be on throttle after the turn, but rather than that i dont...

Just a tip! you want to improve your skills on shifting with the clutch, buy a clio/tuned and race in arcade london! small track;a lot of shifting

 

[PaganiC12]

I have a question regarding the G25.

What does the clutch do? Do you need to use it in order to change gears with the H-shifter?

Thank you.

 

[Kryz11]

You can either enable clutch or not.
If you do enable it, you need to press on it to change gears, if you mess up while pressing on gas and change gears, you will have a penalty to go into N (nutral)

The clutch only works as in ON and OFF button. It s not sensitive yet in GT5P.

 

[PaganiC12]

You can either enable clutch or not.
If you do enable it, you need to press on it to change gears, if you mess up while pressing on gas and change gears, you will have a penalty to go into N (nutral)

The clutch only works as in ON and OFF button. It s not sensitive yet in GT5P.

Amazing!

I just bought a PS3, order GT5P, and am looking at getting a Logitech G25 soon!

Thanks for the information, and I'll be sure to keep on posting on gtplanet.

 

[Jay]

The clutch only works as in ON and OFF button. It s not sensitive yet in GT5P.

Sure it's not real sensitive but it is not a on and off button.

 

[juniordee]

Sure it's not real sensitive but it is not a on and off button.

Yes it is. Even though it's in the shape of a pedal and that you have to press on it, it is still an ON / OFF button (or ON / OFF pedal if you prefer).

 

[GTP_Tzayed]

Hey guys,

So I was the first response post in this thread, and I clearly said that there are no engine inertia effects in the game, and as such, heel toe makes no difference.

I'd like to officially change my mind. Shift lock definitely happens, and heel toe can make a difference.

I'd also like to say that the G25 clutch is not an on/off button. Stop the car, clutch in, press the gas. Engine revs up to bounce off the limiter. Now let the clutch out impossibly slowly. The bouncing will decrease, and the revs will hold at slightly lower revs.

 

[vr6wantsr20det]

Hey guys,

So I was the first response post in this thread, and I clearly said that there are no engine inertia effects in the game, and as such, heel toe makes no difference.

I'd like to officially change my mind. Shift lock definitely happens, and heel toe can make a difference.

I'd also like to say that the G25 clutch is not an on/off button. Stop the car, clutch in, press the gas. Engine revs up to bounce off the limiter. Now let the clutch out impossibly slowly. The bouncing will decrease, and the revs will hold at slightly lower revs.

really? i gotta try this again when i get home tonight. It defiantely feels like an on/off switch instead of having a range of travel/friction like slipping the clutch in real life. The shift lock definately works. I was drifting the Ferrari F430 last night and the shift lock made for some sweet angle/initiation drifts.

It's fun using the clutch in gt5p to give a more realistic/interactive experience. But i didn't find that you could "modulate" the clutch. I will give another shot, maybe it's just very limited in it's range.

 

[GTP_Tzayed]

really? i gotta try this again when i get home tonight. It defiantely feels like an on/off switch instead of having a range of travel/friction like slipping the clutch in real life. The shift lock definately works. I was drifting the Ferrari F430 last night and the shift lock made for some sweet angle/initiation drifts.

It's fun using the clutch in gt5p to give a more realistic/interactive experience. But i didn't find that you could "modulate" the clutch. I will give another shot, maybe it's just very limited in it's range.

If you weren't searching for it, you'd never find it. It's sensitive to start take up, but full friction happens very quickly.

99% of believing a clutch has modulation is due to the real life vibrations and changing pressure. Neither are available here.

 

[seckcimike]

hmm...i must go home and try this tonight. I have definately been using the clutch kick for drifting, but never attempted the shift-lock. I just wish they would put back the power-shifting so we can go from 2nd to 3rd with high revs and lots of wheel-spin.

I didn't think the heel toe-worked because i always have the clutch engaged. Racing/drifting and i will barrel into a turn and just hit the brakes, clutch in/out as i'm down shifting but NOT applying throttle. Never fealt the car get squierrely or unsettled. I will have some fun tonight experiementing. 👍

If you have g25, higher the feedback as much as u can, so u get the max feeling.

 

[GTP_Tzayed]

If you have g25, higher the feedback as much as u can, so u get the max feeling.

There is no feedback from the pedals in the G25.

... Unless you are talking about the steering effects from it getting all squirrelly.

 

[seckcimike]

There is no feedback from the pedals in the G25.

The wheel lol!, ur a funny one hahah

 

[vr6wantsr20det]

The wheel lol!, ur a funny one hahah

I was going to say, the feedback on the wheel wouldn't have any relation to the clutch feel/modulation. The FF on the G25 wheel is great in my opinion, coming from the original DFP, the pedals are great too, especially in Live For speed where the wheel is a bit more compatable. I'll do some experimenting tonight with GT5p and the clutch. I will bounce off the limiter and super-slowly release the clutch...see what happens as suggested. 👍

-Robert.

 

[seckcimike]

As i was saying i the steering wheel is the only way to really feel out the car!!!!

 

[vr6wantsr20det]

As i was saying i the steering wheel is the only way to really feel out the car!!!!

amen to that. It definately takes time getting used to Over/Under-Steer by the wheel and force-feedback alone. Which is why when i play i'm flyinig around the track, and when my friends jump on, they're flying OFF the track.

[edit]-You guys are correct, there is a bit of clutch modulation. I used the Integra Type-R. Pinned the Tach and slooooowly released the clutch. As it engaged the car start to move a bit and the rpm started dropping. So i played with it a bit and it definately works. It's not a very easy thing to notice, since most people (myself included) put the car in first, floor it and drop the clutch. But if you slip it there is a little bit of modulation there.