Help Me Plan My Car Life (new car search @post 290)

[Danoff]

The B10 V8 was I think the first car that made me aware of Alpina. Any V8 E39 would be lovely, but I had misgivings over the steering feel of the M5 I drove, and it's my understanding all the V8s used the same recirculating ball steering. Suppose it comes down to whether one would derive more enjoyment from an E39 with eight cylinders or one with great steering...

You have a point though. Perhaps a better E46 replacement than fun occasional-use car.

I drove the 330i just now and I can't bring myself to let it go. It's sooooo good for me specifically. I think that I could probably have more fun with a 997, but I should probably keep the cars that I intend to really consume to cars that are basically not costing me anything, and the E46 is that. I can throw my kids in the back (with the extra doors) and they can mash goldfish crackers into the seats and kick the back of the seats in front of them and I don't have to feel bad about it. That would not be the case with a 997 or a B10 or whatever.

Maybe when they're grown (and I've given the 330i over as a first-car learning tool for them when they're 16, which is still 13 years away for my youngest) then I can consider something sportier for everyday use.

Edit:

I say everyday use, but really my primary car these days is the van. The 330i gets very little mileage annually, but it still is nice for handling 1 kid (1 carseat) at a time.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

There was a person on the zhp forum that moved to an M5 and ended up selling the M5 due to the steering feel.

 

[mustafur]

What about a DC2 Integra Type R, the JDM version will be open to import next year as a 25 year old car as the first DC2R came out in 1995.

Sure it's FWD but it's objectively the best FWD Sports car ever made, the Acura version that are already in America are a bit overpriced due to the supremely low numbers(Although I don't see those going down in price as they are LHD) but the early JDM versions are starting to creep up in price and the pre 98 Versions had an Option to delete all Airbags and ABS, Power Steering etc so it's a very pure experience.

 

[Danoff]

What about a DC2 Integra Type R, the JDM version will be open to import next year as a 25 year old car as the first DC2R came out in 1995.

Sure it's FWD but it's objectively the best FWD Sports car ever made, the Acura version that are already in America are a bit overpriced due to the supremely low numbers(Although I don't see those going down in price as they are LHD) but the early JDM versions are starting to creep up in price and the pre 98 Versions had an Option to delete all Airbags and ABS, Power Steering etc so it's a very pure experience.

The Integra R is certainly an option. I think I'd get the LHD version though. But if the price could flatline or tank due to imports coming soon, perhaps now is not the right time. I do question whether a RHD version is as appealing given that once you go RHD you open up R33s and R34s.

 

[homeforsummer]

There was a person on the zhp forum that moved to an M5 and ended up selling the M5 due to the steering feel.

It doesn't surprise me. It's the only real area where that car doesn't quite feel right (which is why my ideal E39 would probably have to be some kind of Alpina with a six-cylinder instead).

Integra R a good suggestion. Can't see there being any real advantage to waiting for a RHD import when they sold them in the US anyway - though in an ideal world you'd probably want to find a set of the red Recaros, the Momo steering wheel and proper titanium gearknob, none of which the US version got as standard, to my knowledge (at least, none of the ones that come up on BaT seem to have those items). The US-spec front bumper is also a bit grim if I recall, so maybe just the bumper too...

Rest of it's pretty much perfect though. Really is one of those cars that makes you question whether a "sports car" needs to be rear-wheel drive, or have an open top. If there are any cars I've ever driven better than a DC2 R, I can't immediately think of them off the top of my head, and I imagine I could count them on one hand.

 

[daan]

The Eunos Cosmo, I hadn't ever heard of it, despite @Eunos_Cosmo's screen name. I'm watching a video now. My first thought was, not a chance. But I'm coming around fast. That's actually a really cool car.

 

[Famine]

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A triple-rotor Eunos Cosmo is in my lottery garage.

 

[mustafur]

The Integra R is certainly an option. I think I'd get the LHD version though. But if the price could flatline or tank due to imports coming soon, perhaps now is not the right time. I do question whether a RHD version is as appealing given that once you go RHD you open up R33s and R34s.

The Price difference between ITRs and Any GT-R is absolutely massive though, you could get a pristine JDM version in 4 Door(the rarest one) and still have enough money to buy another 2 door before you get to a GT-R price point.

Another interesting point with the DCX ITRs is Honda made every single one at a loss, the Welding was done by Hand rather then machine as Seem welding reduces weight so they had specialists do it at a high cost.

 

[Danoff]

The 911 is such a versatile car. When compared to, for example, an M3 Sport Evo, the 993, 964 or 930 (turbos or not) are so much more usable. The 964 RS America seems like the best... uh... affordable?... version within those categories, from a value perspective. What do I mean by usable? I dunno. The Evo seems like what someone called a point A to point A car. You don't take it anywhere, you just go for a ride and put it back in the garage. The 911 kinda blends in in such a way that you could take it out to just about anything, and even park it in a parking lot. But that is the reason that it doesn't feel like such a special car. Both pro and con.

Of course I have other cars that work for my needs, so point A to point A is just fine.

So what do we think, 20 years from now how do these cars look? Let's take any of those 911s vs. the M3. I'm guessing the M3 is worth twice as much (or more). And that means it doesn't need to do as much.


Edit:

Just reading back through this thread, it's a huge list of posts from me arguing for the M3 and people trying to talk me out of it.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

I think you need to drive a 993/964 back to back with an E30 M3. I think you will appreciate the specialness of even ordinary 911s. No other car ever made, IMO, can match the 911 in the way that it blends design and engineering into something that is simultaneously a tool and a work of art. It's like Porsche managed to peg the scale of both useful and special at the same time. You sit in the driver seat, perfectly positioned to drive. There's no compromise to the driving experience, yet somehow also no compromise to the design. They are just so harmonious. That is the enduring appeal that I think is so difficult to explain. That said, E30s look pretty cool.

 

[Danoff]

I think you need to drive a 993/964 back to back with an E30 M3. I think you will appreciate the specialness of even ordinary 911s. No other car ever made, IMO, can match the 911 in the way that it blends design and engineering into something that is simultaneously a tool and a work of art. It's like Porsche managed to peg the scale of both useful and special at the same time. You sit in the driver seat, perfectly positioned to drive. There's no compromise to the driving experience, yet somehow also no compromise to the design. They are just so harmonious. That is the enduring appeal that I think is so difficult to explain. That said, E30s look pretty cool.

A great 911 would be a complete full-circle for me. I started my car life with a 1971 VW air-cooled Beetle, which I loved driving (and I wish it had brakes).

The problem with your line of reasoning, not that it's wrong, is that honestly I'm going to be absolutely in love with the driving experience of either of the above (or many of the aforementioned cars). The driving experience is likely to be absolutely phenomenal regardless - which makes me wonder which one will cost the least. There are so many Porsches and they're all so wonderful. BMW may never recapture its E30.

(you are right about seat-time of course)

 

[Danoff]

Ok so that RSA kinda defeats the point. I like that it's NA, but the back seat delete is such a problem for me in 911s. That's part of what makes the car special. The next problem is the sunroof option, holy hell. Deleting the back seat to lose weight but adding a sunroof? Give me a break.

If I were to go RSA (and again, the back seat delete bothers me), it would have to be a no-sunroof, yes LSD version. Because that's the only configuration that makes any actual sense.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Ok so that RSA kinda defeats the point. I like that it's NA, but the back seat delete is such a problem for me in 911s. That's part of what makes the car special. The next problem is the sunroof option, holy hell. Deleting the back seat to lose weight but adding a sunroof? Give me a break.

If I were to go RSA (and again, the back seat delete bothers me), it would have to be a no-sunroof, yes LSD version. Because that's the only configuration that makes any actual sense.

993 Turbo.

(I'm sitting here trying to think of a sexier car than a 993 Turbo...the only one I can think of is a 993 GT2...but those are true unicorns. I saw one once....it was so, so lovely. That was back when they were just really fast Porsches, not holy grail collector cars...)

 

[Danoff]

993 Turbo.

(I'm sitting here trying to think of a sexier car than a 993 Turbo...the only one I can think of is a 993 GT2...but those are true unicorns. I saw one once....it was so, so lovely. That was back when they were just really fast Porsches, not holy grail collector cars...)

993 Turbos are pretty far up the food chain on prices. Turbo S is borderline out of my reach. How sure are we that these are not on the way down?

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

993 Turbos are pretty far up the food chain on prices. Turbo S is borderline out of my reach. How sure are we that these are not on the way down?

I agree it's hard to look at air-cooled 911 prices and not see a bubble similar to the 60s muscle car barret jackson thing from 10 years ago. Be lucky?

 

[Danoff]

@Eunos_Cosmo and anyone else tracking this weird thread

Why a 993 Turbo is not the right car for me

So on the face of it, the 993 turbo looks like a pretty great selection for me. It's in my price range, it will probably hold its value or go up, and it's a fantastic car that handles really well, is small, has a back seat, looks great, and is decently reliable. What's not to love? A masterpiece of a car.

So I'm the guy that made the slow car fast thread. Just about a month ago I managed a really great drive in the NSX. I managed to get a curly q on-ramp (270 degrees) open twice in a row and blasted that sucker onto the freeway. I redlined it, pushed the tires, heel-toed, the works. It was a glorious drive - the best I've had in the car. It was also too fast a couple of times, and difficult to find a place to stretch its legs. The NSX is almost too much car for me. I think it might actually be if I were at sea level. Most of the time I can't tap its potential on public streets.

I'm not a track-day guy, at least not with my road cars. For one, I hate the notion of driving a car to the track and hoping that it will be able to get me back home (partly because I've removed a serpentine belt with a cone at the track - what was a cone doing at the track? I don't know, I think they only had like one and I managed to hit it). So if I were to do track days regularly I'm trailering a car there. But the track car is so much better if you ruin the car for the road. Flywheel too light? Yes. Rock-hard suspension? Yes. H-harness? Yes. Etc. etc., you know my shtick. Ok, so back to the 993 Turbo.

Would I track it? No. If I were going to track a car I'd build one specifically for that purpose, probably a high-mileage NSX or E36 M3. Not only would a 993 Turbo be too valuable to me to want to put it on the track, I'd very much worry about killing myself with it. It's too much car for my pedestrian driving capabilities at the track. Hell, it's almost as much car as one could imagine at the track.

Is it a good road car? Not for me. I'd never tap the potential of a 993 Turbo (or Turbo S) on the road. Sure, I could own it and just use part of it, but there is something less than satisfying about that. There is a real part of me that prefers the MR-2 over the NSX because I can access the car on the road.

So I could own a 993 and use it lightly, and never really tap it. And that would be totally fine, because I have other cars that I could drive. But I could alternatively own valuable cars that are slower, more accessible, and would better suit my personal driving desires. I know this is going to sound bonkers but I might take a base version of any of the M3s (not exceeding E46) or a 964 or 930 over a 993 Turbo. Less car, but maybe more fun. And rare and valuable versions of those slower cars exist, I just have to move backward in time.

 

[homeforsummer]

I didn't see when the 993 Turbo was first mentioned, but given what I know you like about cars, I'm surprised you considered it in the first place over say, a regular 993, or a 964, or even a 996 in the other direction. For anyone who enjoys feeling like they're getting the most from a car on the road, it's rare that the high-performance model in a range will really offer that, particularly when it's the high-performance version of a high-performance car!

I know it varies depending on where you are in the world, but for me the lower end of the hot hatchback market is about the limit of what you can really extend on the road (in terms of cornering, not just straight line speed) without doing something antisocial/illegal/dangerous. And even then, it's borderline. Say, 200, 250hp. Maybe something a bit quicker if you're fortunate enough to live near say, a particularly empty mountain road.

It sounds like an E30 M3, or a basic 964 Carrera or similar would be ideal. Both probably fall somewhere between your MR2 and NSX in terms of performance, but with similar or greater levels of interaction and probably greater investment potential.

I'd throw the Integra R back into the mix too, given your fondness for the RSX, and given it too is a driver's car that you can really exploit at sensible speeds. Though prices over there seem to be getting a bit silly, and I'm not sure the market isn't just going to come tumbling in on itself at some point soon.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

I'd throw the Integra R back into the mix too, given your fondness for the RSX, and given it too is a driver's car that you can really exploit at sensible speeds. Though prices over there seem to be getting a bit silly, and I'm not sure the market isn't just going to come tumbling in on itself at some point soon.

Well, starting next year, the 1995 Integra Type R will be eligible for importation into the US. I'm not sure we have much precedence to determine what happens then in terms of prices (most JDM unicorns were simply not previously available in the US when they became eligible) but I could see a scenario where the JDM cars undercut the prices of the USDM cars, putting downward pressure on the USDM cars which are somewhat less desirable anyways (depending on ones attitude towards RHD vs LHD).

 

[TheCracker]

It sounds like an E30 M3, or a basic 964 Carrera or similar would be ideal. Both probably fall somewhere between your MR2 and NSX in terms of performance, but with similar or greater levels of interaction and probably greater investment potential.

I would hazard a guess that a nice original 964 Carrera 4 can only increase in value from now on. Without fact checking i would guess that they've already long since reached their lowest value and are now marching back upwards - yet not enough to put them out of reach.

Why the 964 C4 in particular? It wasn't quite as good a drive as the C2, if i recall contemporary road tests correctly, but wasn't far off. The 964 was the first proper modernised 911 but still retained the classic shell and was still aircooled and the 4wd system was the first time Porsche had utilised it in a road car other than on the 959. Plenty of 964's have been used as the basis for resto-mods, a trend that will likely continue, so a good original one without the Cup wheels and mirrors that so many have had added over the years will be a gem right now IMO.

*edit* Yipes! - a tidy, low milage, well cared for one in the right spec - manual coupe with no mods, is now a £60k car! Last time i checked up on them which was about 5 or so years ago they were half that.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

I would hazard a guess that a nice original 964 Carrera 4 can only increase in value from now on. Without fact checking i would guess that they've already long since reached their lowest value and are now marching back upwards - yet not enough to put them out of reach.

Why the 964 C4 in particular? It wasn't quite as good a drive as the C2, if i recall contemporary road tests correctly, but wasn't far off. The 964 was the first proper modernised 911 but still retained the classic shell and was still aircooled and the 4wd system was the first time Porsche had utilised it in a road car other than on the 959. Plenty of 964's have been used as the basis for resto-mods, a trend that will likely continue, so a good original one without the Cup wheels and mirrors that so many have had added over the years will be a gem right now IMO.

*edit* Yipes! - a tidy, low milage, well cared for one in the right spec - manual coupe with no mods, is now a £60k car! Last time i checked up on them which was about 5 or so years ago they were half that.

Yeah 964 values took off like a rocket around 2012-2014. I was watching with great sadness...

I think it was a confluence of Magnus Walker + Singer

In other news: This popped up on my local craigslist (though it's in Dallas...). If I already had a house, I would have bought it today.

 

[Crash]

993 Turbos are pretty far up the food chain on prices. Turbo S is borderline out of my reach. How sure are we that these are not on the way down?

IMO, flatline in the near term, but if you're talking that 30 year horizon, hard to see it not appreciate in the same way that the M3 Sport Evo might.

Ok so that RSA kinda defeats the point. I like that it's NA, but the back seat delete is such a problem for me in 911s. That's part of what makes the car special. The next problem is the sunroof option, holy hell. Deleting the back seat to lose weight but adding a sunroof? Give me a break.

If I were to go RSA (and again, the back seat delete bothers me), it would have to be a no-sunroof, yes LSD version. Because that's the only configuration that makes any actual sense.

I've personally never been huge on the RS America. It literally is a normal Carrera 2 with the ability to delete sunroof, rear seats and/or air conditioning, and with a fixed rear wing. It did not have chassis changes or engine changes. If you do find a true slicktop with none of the options other than a LSD, sure, it's the lightest and most track focused US spec 964 for the road, with a very few Cup examples aside.

When new, RS America started cheaper than the Carrera 2. Now they are more expensive just because they had a different badge that was applied to a more limited number of cars from the factory.

--

I think the E30 M3 compared more aptly to the 964 Carrera 2/4/RS America, or 993 Carrera 2/4, while the E30 M3 Sport Evo compared more aptly to things like the 964 Carrera RS or 993 Carrera RS/GT2. If you're looking at the Sport Evo in terms of it as the peak of E30 M3, and its rarity and desirability, the contemporary Carrera RS are probably better comparisons on the 911 side than just your ho hum run of the mill base spec 911.

 

[Danoff]

I'm still trying to find the right day to rent the local 964 ragtop to get some seat time.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

You know...a Subaru 22b would sure be a tasty 3-box treat and quite a departure from your NSX in terms of experience - in a good way. Based on this, they're currently valued at around $100k. (That's a couple years old, so they've probably increased since then). I don't think we've yet hit peak JDM (which I think is what happens after the current Porschemania ends, will coincide with the presumably large Gran Turismo car enthusiast cohort hitting middle age with some disposable income) so I'd imagine some of these specials have a lot of room to grow. The more "legendary" the car was in Gran Turismo 1-3, the more value I'd suspect they'll end up having. It helps that 22bs are reportedly awesome to drive and quite sexy.

 

[VXR]

1995 RS2? Reaches the US import threshold next year, and at 320bhp it's not going to be too fast, too often. Plus, accelerating to 30 faster than a McLaren F1 is kinda neat.

 

[Danoff]

https://www.sportscarmarket.com/profile/2004-bmw-m3-csl

About 840 CSLs were made LHD. Can't be imported for another 9 years or so.

People are swapping manual transmissions into them. 4 people apparently.

 

[McLaren]

Est. between 6-10 in the US somehow. Miami + 2 more on the East Coast, 3 in NorCal have been reported in the last 5 years. Someone on one of the BMW forums projected it'd probably cost you $10-20K to get one in the states by undisclosed means.

 

[Crash]

https://www.sportscarmarket.com/profile/2004-bmw-m3-csl

About 840 CSLs were made LHD. Can't be imported for another 9 years or so.

People are swapping manual transmissions into them. 4 people apparently.

I think the Competition will command a premium but trend similar to E46 M3. If you really want a special E46 M3, look at Europe only M3 CSL. Not legal to import until late next decade though.

 

[Danoff]

Yea, but I didn't know they existed in LHD. That's a big deal.

Ok so I can't get my head off of the RX-7. I know it's a painful ownership experience, but man... so beautiful.

Rotary is such an interesting technology, and so uncommon. And the FD is a legendary car on its own, adding the rotary in the mix is another step of special. Somehow I need to get seat time still in a 964 911, an E30, and maybe an FD? I know what the E46 feels like.


Edit: There's one on turo not too far off for... ugh... $1000/day. Holy hell.

 

[Rallywagon]

The FD is a great car, very lively and spirited. Sounds really good too. I dont know that owner ship is all that painful. You do need to know the quirks. Making sure that everytime you start the car, you let the engine warm up fully before turning it off again for example. Checking your oil every gas tank refill. When driving, at least once every drive give it a good run through the RPMs. A turbo timer is highly recommended. Some reversible mods, adding a fat oil cooler and better radiator is as well. Simple things like that go a long way to keeping a rotary going. I've had 2 FB Rx7s, and have a 12a set aside for a build. Both my cars were over 150k miles before I sold them.
A word of caution though. Getting lower mileage or having one with a rebuild from a known, reputable rotary shop is key. In all rotaries, if driven like a normal sports car is by the normal **** driver, the rear rotor housing tends to get chattered up really bad across the the lower sections of the face, particualry around the exhaust port. Especially in turbo rotaries, as the exhaust and turbo(s) tend to sit closer to the back, and its position in the engine bay traps more heat. Be sure the mechanic doing the repurchase inspection has rotary knowledge and checks for pitting or chattering in the rear housing. If its light, you should be good, but should probably get the housing resurfaced. But it can get to the point that the face surface has fully flaked away. At that point the housing is toast.
Oh, and, definitely join Rx7Club.com. a good group and probably the best resource for info.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

The FD is a great car, very lively and spirited. Sounds really good too. I dont know that owner ship is all that painful. You do need to know the quirks. Making sure that everytime you start the car, you let the engine warm up fully before turning it off again for example. Checking your oil every gas tank refill. When driving, at least once every drive give it a good run through the RPMs. A turbo timer is highly recommended. Some reversible mods, adding a fat oil cooler and better radiator is as well. Simple things like that go a long way to keeping a rotary going. I've had 2 FB Rx7s, and have a 12a set aside for a build. Both my cars were over 150k miles before I sold them.
A word of caution though. Getting lower mileage or having one with a rebuild from a known, reputable rotary shop is key. In all rotaries, if driven like a normal sports car is by the normal **** driver, the rear rotor housing tends to get chattered up really bad across the the lower sections of the face, particualry around the exhaust port. Especially in turbo rotaries, as the exhaust and turbo(s) tend to sit closer to the back, and its position in the engine bay traps more heat. Be sure the mechanic doing the repurchase inspection has rotary knowledge and checks for pitting or chattering in the rear housing. If its light, you should be good, but should probably get the housing resurfaced. But it can get to the point that the face surface has fully flaked away. At that point the housing is toast.
Oh, and, definitely join Rx7Club.com. a good group and probably the best resource for info.

Also, you could probably rebuild a 13b 2 or 3 times for the cost of rebuilding an air-cooled 911 engine once. Find a good mechanic and treat the car well, and it will be fine.