Help Me Plan My Car Life (new car search @post 290)

[Danoff]

Also, you could probably rebuild a 13b 2 or 3 times for the cost of rebuilding an air-cooled 911 engine once. Find a good mechanic and treat the car well, and it will be fine.

Mostly I haven't had any good experiences driving turbos (granted I haven't had many experiences at all). Is there anything similar (in terms of turbo feel) for me to try short of finding an FD? Seat time in all of the cars I'm interested in seems to be my big problem.

I think if I were to buy an FD, it would be one which had been well-preserved, so much of the long term maintenance/mods that need to be done would have been done.

Any GTP members have an FD that I can fly out and drive a bit? I'm very gentle with cars, check the manual transmission technique thread.

 

[Danoff]

Am I seriously going to sit here and let this Ford GT go for peanuts?

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2006-ford-gt-16/

5 min left.

Edit:

I can't bring myself to bid... but I also am really struggling to make peace with not bidding here.

 

[Joey D]

That GT weirdly has a bunch of miles on it when compared to others for sale. I know it's weird to think 9,000 is "high" but many of the cars for sale have less than 1,000 miles on the clock. Still, at $250,000 that's a good price, especially if someone wants to actually drive it instead of putting it in a climate-controlled garage.

Given the username of the person who bought it though, I sincerely hope it was Deadmau5.

 

[Danoff]

Still, at $250,000 that's a good price

No joke.

This also piqued my interest.

 

[McLaren]

No joke.

This also piqued my interest.

Might be worth it. Original NSX values on the exotic auction market look promising, of course miles playing a big part. But a ‘91 Formula Red w/ 57k on the odo did manage $71k in Vegas at Barret a few years back.

 

[Danoff]

Might be worth it. Original NSX values on the exotic auction market look promising, of course miles playing a big part. But a ‘91 Formula Red w/ 57k on the odo did manage $71k in Vegas at Barret a few years back.

The problem with bidding on that one is the exchange. I've got mine where I want it, and I don't particularly want to sell it. But I don't want two just to have a Zanardi. First world problems I suppose.

Edit:

Bottom line, I should have bought a Zanardi to begin with.

 

[Crash]

I think there might be some deals coming in the next few months.

--

I've mentioned 60s-70s Alfas before, but what do you think about an Alfa Romeo Montreal specifically?

 

[McLaren]

The problem with bidding on that one is the exchange. I've got mine where I want it, and I don't particularly want to sell it. But I don't want two just to have a Zanardi. First world problems I suppose.

Edit:

Bottom line, I should have bought a Zanardi to begin with.

If yours is where you want it & you don't want to sell it, then the only reason to snag a Zanardi is purely investment. Keep it tucked away for the next 3-5 years, do a quick maintenance check, sell it for a hefty profit. Otherwise, depending on how attached you are & its condition, you could sell yours for a nice chunk of change on its own. I don't know your mileage, but I know it's a red/black example & like the Vegas example, this is another Formula Red with around 50K miles asking $75K out of CA.
https://www.cncexotics.com/details-...n_top_3_2l_manual-used-jh4na2169vt000116.html

 

[Danoff]

If yours is where you want it & you don't want to sell it, then the only reason to snag a Zanardi is purely investment. Keep it tucked away for the next 3-5 years, do a quick maintenance check, sell it for a hefty profit. Otherwise, depending on how attached you are & its condition, you could sell yours for a nice chunk of change on its own. I don't know your mileage, but I know it's a red/black example & like the Vegas example, this is another Formula Red with around 50K miles asking $75K out of CA.
https://www.cncexotics.com/details-...n_top_3_2l_manual-used-jh4na2169vt000116.html

I'm in the low 50ks for mileage. It's a '93 manual. It is where I want it, but the fact that I should have just spent more, gotten the Zanardi, and had a better investment, and sliiightly better ride will probably continue to irk me.

That being said, the Zanardi sold for $135k, and honestly, it's 95% the same car as mine. Just costs twice as much. If I'm being completely forthcoming here, there is something nice about having the less valuable version of the car. Because it's lower-stress.

I think there might be some deals coming in the next few months.

--

I've mentioned 60s-70s Alfas before, but what do you think about an Alfa Romeo Montreal specifically?

I kinda don't like Alfa on the whole. Lack of reliability can be a real drag. I don't need huge reliability (I don't need to put a lot of miles on it), but I don't like constant problems.

 

[homeforsummer]

If yours is where you want it & you don't want to sell it, then the only reason to snag a Zanardi is purely investment.

Given everything that's happening at the moment I'd not be too keen to label anything an investment. That aspect of the market has been slowing down for a while now and even before Covid kicked off a lot of cars were falling short of prices people were paying a year or two ago. I think it could be why some of those cars above look like surprising value.

Main reason to buy anything at the moment is if you want it and want to enjoy it. That way something not gaining in value (or even shedding value) will still be worth it.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Given everything that's happening at the moment I'd not be too keen to label anything an investment. That aspect of the market has been slowing down for a while now and even before Covid kicked off a lot of cars were falling short of prices people were paying a year or two ago. I think it could be why some of those cars above look like surprising value.

Main reason to buy anything at the moment is if you want it and want to enjoy it. That way something not gaining in value (or even shedding value) will still be worth it.

It's hard to ignore this. Yeah I've been sensing a slowdown as well. From a long-term perspective...I don't know how much value cars will hold for most people. I'm quite certain there will always be car enthusiasts, but how many? With the boomer cohort, you could reasonably expect nearly every male (and many females) to have some interest in cars - as well as the funds to procure them and inflate values. Gen X? Probably not as many. Millenials? Way less. Gen Z? Even fewer. All of that is to say I can easily see a scenario in the future in which there is far less demand for "classic" cars than there has been over the last 20 years....the monied boomer era...and, as they leave this place, a flood of supply too. And even if the younger generations do in fact develop a passion for classic cars, I'm not sure they'll ever have the money to sustain the inflated valuations/appreciation, nor the space to store them. I've often wondered whats going to happen to all the antique cars (pre-60s) and muscle cars from the 60s after the boomers are gone. I don't think anyone wants them as badly as the Boomer generation has, and I certainly don't think Millenials or GenZ are going to be paying large 6-figure sums for numbers matching obscure Americana. Maybe Gen X...but they're more into the 80s so whatever.

 

[McLaren]

Given everything that's happening at the moment I'd not be too keen to label anything an investment. That aspect of the market has been slowing down for a while now and even before Covid kicked off a lot of cars were falling short of prices people were paying a year or two ago. I think it could be why some of those cars above look like surprising value.

Main reason to buy anything at the moment is if you want it and want to enjoy it. That way something not gaining in value (or even shedding value) will still be worth it.

I thought that too, but the high end market isn't really taking that big of a hit. I'll share an exert from an exotic dealer who gave his insight & follows the exotic auction market even closer than I do.

Yes, the world has changed but we are still selling rare, incredible cars. We sold our Miura SV, a 512BBi, our Diablo 6.0 SE, 550 Maranello all within the last 16-17 days. The volatility of equity markets, the amount of spare time during quarantine, I am sure its a mixture of things. If you have a fair offer, we are always willing to work on our pricing to build relationships with clients, but don't expect any fire sales on our specific inventory.

In addition, our business is very different from most, it is a labor of love, a passion protect. We buy cars we love, very high quality, low mileage examples. These are the cars I believe, and many collectors believe will continue to do well.

I do believe things will get worse, before they get better. We don't know if this will pass next week, next month or in 3 months, but we are still selling and buying good quality cars at fair prices. Passion conquers all, and no collector should be buying their dream car based on the value next week or next month.

The results of good cars on BringaTrailer and RM Sotheby's Palm Beach online sale, further validate my belief.

I will add that this particular dealer also deals in very specific, optioned vehicles & therefore, usually commands high dollar asking prices. For example, his mentioned Diablo 6.0 SE sold for $635,000. He turned down an offer over $800,000 for his SE30 Jota. He has also fielded the sales of multiple LP640s in the $500,000+ range just because they were stick shift cars, moving his last 4 very quickly despite well over Murcielago values. I would acknowledge that Curated is just one dealer selling cars (in a bit of a niche approach), but I have seen it happening in your area of the world as well. I have watched DK Engineering move a TDF LaFerrari, 575 GTC, & 2 PTS Carrera GTs within' 2 weeks as well. It could be argued DK approaches its inventory the same way Curated does, taking specific cars in a different region, but they aren't struggling either.

The only consistent thing I have seen between these 2 & some others is that the vehicles they're selling are very rare-optioned cars. One could believe a lot of these specific cars are coming back on the market because owners need money but the fact they are getting exactly what they're worth in very short time frames, pandemic or not, shows the market for them is still very strong & the cars will remain safe investments given how fast they're coming & going through the market. I think at the time Danoff shared the Zanardi, it was bidding around $90,000 which I felt was a great deal because the last example I saw come up for sale, moved at $155,000. BringaTrailer's Zanardi cleared the listing at $135,000 in the end giving me the conclusion that that particular NSX encompasses the investment potential that those mentioned exotics have.

It appears to me that if the market is slowing down, even with exotics, the rarer examples, whether they're already a Carrera GT (which is softening) or a 1st gen. NSX, will always remain healthy cars to buy into. It certainly can't hurt that 1st gen. NSX values were already slowly creeping upwards under the radar over the last couple years. But just to add a little more insight into the older NSXs slowly being absorbed into a higher tier market (why by my view, the Zanardi would've been a safe investment), there are currently 2 NA1 NSX-Rs & a NA2 Type S Zero coming into market soon. The 2 NA1s are projected $200,000+ & the Zero is projected at would be a record-setting $275,000-$300,00 for a NSX. Of course, until any of the 3 actually sell, I acknowledge them specifically, solidifying my personal views isn't anymore validated than what yours may be.

 

[Danoff]

I thought that too, but the high end market isn't really taking that big of a hit. I'll share an exert from an exotic dealer who gave his insight & follows the exotic auction market even closer than I do.

I will add that this particular dealer also deals in very specific, optioned vehicles & therefore, usually commands high dollar asking prices. For example, his mentioned Diablo 6.0 SE sold for $635,000. He turned down an offer over $800,000 for his SE30 Jota. He has also fielded the sales of multiple LP640s in the $500,000+ range just because they were stick shift cars, moving his last 4 very quickly despite well over Murcielago values. I would acknowledge that Curated is just one dealer selling cars (in a bit of a niche approach), but I have seen it happening in your area of the world as well. I have watched DK Engineering move a TDF LaFerrari, 575 GTC, & 2 PTS Carrera GTs within' 2 weeks as well. It could be argued DK approaches its inventory the same way Curated does, taking specific cars in a different region, but they aren't struggling either.

The only consistent thing I have seen between these 2 & some others is that the vehicles they're selling are very rare-optioned cars. One could believe a lot of these specific cars are coming back on the market because owners need money but the fact they are getting exactly what they're worth in very short time frames, pandemic or not, shows the market for them is still very strong & the cars will remain safe investments given how fast they're coming & going through the market. I think at the time Danoff shared the Zanardi, it was bidding around $90,000 which I felt was a great deal because the last example I saw come up for sale, moved at $155,000. BringaTrailer's Zanardi cleared the listing at $135,000 in the end giving me the conclusion that that particular NSX encompasses the investment potential that those mentioned exotics have.

It appears to me that if the market is slowing down, even with exotics, the rarer examples, whether they're already a Carrera GT (which is softening) or a 1st gen. NSX, will always remain healthy cars to buy into. It certainly can't hurt that 1st gen. NSX values were already slowly creeping upwards under the radar over the last couple years. But just to add a little more insight into the older NSXs slowly being absorbed into a higher tier market (why by my view, the Zanardi would've been a safe investment), there are currently 2 NA1 NSX-Rs & a NA2 Type S Zero coming into market soon. The 2 NA1s are projected $200,000+ & the Zero is projected at would be a record-setting $275,000-$300,00 for a NSX. Of course, until any of the 3 actually sell, I acknowledge them specifically, solidifying my personal views isn't anymore validated than what yours may be.

This is an interesting perspective. You're further into this world than I am. I had been thinking that it was clear that the market was softening for cars much like for stocks. If stocks are an investment during a downturn, then I think it's still safe to consider certain cars an investment if they can hold their value as well or better than stocks.

I had always viewed certain cars as being more diversified investment than stocks. A rare and desirable car, like a Ford GT or any of these others, continues to be rare and desireable in a market downturn. And what's more, the demand for them is international, meaning that it is, to at least an extent, hedged against a local downturn. What I'm still learning to realize is just how interconnected world markets are, so I'm only starting to understand the degree to which cars are connected to market downturns in that those downturns affect all economies and all buyers.

Honestly it's nudging me toward a heavier investment in real estate.

That being said, I do think that new generations of car enthusiasts will continue to discover driving, and will continue to be interested in older more analog cars. I personally wouldn't invest in old muscle cars, I think @Eunos_Cosmo may be right about the aging demand for that one. But there are other cars that seem to transcend generations. I think it has to represent more than nostalgia. I needs to represent something interesting that can't and won't be recreated.

 

[homeforsummer]

I thought that too, but the high end market isn't really taking that big of a hit. I'll share an exert from an exotic dealer who gave his insight & follows the exotic auction market even closer than I do.

Rare models are certainly a little more insulated, and the real high-end stuff - F1s, F40s - will I think be pretty much untouched unless something even bigger than Covid happens.

But anything below say, $100k? I'm not so sure. I'd not like to be the guy who paid $60k or whatever it was for that Integra Type R on BaT last year. I dunno whether you listen to the Collecting Cars podcast either (run off the back of an online auction platform, with Chris Harris as one of the hosts) but they were noting that 550 Maranellos that were selling in 16/17 for £120k are now more like £70k, and that's before Covid even got started.

Something will always be worth whatever someone pays for it and there's a certain level of investor/collector (delete as appropriate) who'll always have the means to pay for something at an inflated rate. But the whole market has been riding the back of a bubble for quite some time now, and bubbles don't last forever. Throw in whatever effects Covid ends up having, the general demonisation of cars, regulations, the completely separate credit bubble, younger generations having less spending power, and the market is looking pretty shaky outside the really high-end stuff.

Now I don't care if a few monied toffs lose their shirt, but I'd prefer my friends on this forum didn't - so I'd always recommend buying something to enjoy rather than to sit on and expect it to be worth more in say, five or ten years. In a stabler moment in history I'd say go for it on something like the Zanardi @Danoff. Today though? I'd be looking at whether you think it'd give you any more enjoyment than your current NSX, and whether that extra enjoyment would be worth the extra money up front, and the risk of losing that extra investment longer-term.

In effect, it's the NSX-R problem - and I know you have thoughts on whether those are worth it...

 

[Danoff]

Something will always be worth whatever someone pays for it and there's a certain level of investor/collector (delete as appropriate) who'll always have the means to pay for something at an inflated rate.

I'm not sure that's a fair statement. If that were true, then a car that fetches $2M at auction should have fetched $2B. The pockets are not constant, and they're not endless.

 

[homeforsummer]

I'm not sure that's a fair statement. If that were true, then a car that fetches $2M at auction should have fetched $2B. The pockets are not constant, and they're not endless.

There's a sensible limit of course, but there are a lot of people around with astonishingly high budgets who won't think twice about joining the next hyper-inflated bidding war. Again, I'm not sure it's happening at the moment - and by that I mean the last year or so rather than right this second - but the last five years or so have seen a lot of records broken and re-broken.

 

[Danoff]

There's a sensible limit of course, but there are a lot of people around with astonishingly high budgets who won't think twice about joining the next hyper-inflated bidding war. Again, I'm not sure it's happening at the moment - and by that I mean the last year or so rather than right this second - but the last five years or so have seen a lot of records broken and re-broken.

Sure, well the value of currency goes down and down, and the economy grows and wealth is accumulated. Downward pressure can still exist, even at the highest price points, but I am interested to track values across this little economic blip (or grand canyon).

I think that I should have bought a Zanardi. It's more in-line with my goals than the standard car. That being said, the standard car is doing a pretty admirable job. I bought my car for $41k. At the time, a Zanardi would have fetched around $80k. Now the stanard cars are going for $60k and Zanardis are going for $130. That's ballpark, of course... it depends on mileage etc.

I just felt like anything approaching $80k was an insane figure (at the time). I had enough trouble bringing myself to spend $41k on a car, let alone $80k!!! Pure insanity. Now I'm starting to think that $200k is not unreasonable, but I'm in a different position financially. If I had it to do over again, I'd have bought the Zanardi. Not because it's so much better. It's not really. I'd have bought it because I'd like to have more invested in NSX in general.

The Type-R is a different story.

On my list of things to do is to rent an SMG E46 M3 to see if I might like a CSL. I also need to drive an integra, and probably a number of other cars. Social distancing sucks.

 

[Danoff]

So just as an update to this thread, I have not driven an integra yet, but I've basically come to the conclusion that the Integra Type R is the right choice for me (thanks @homeforsummer). Apparently finding a manual integra to test drive is damned near impossible. There is currently a Type R in Pennsylvania and another in California. Neither seems like the right one. There's a "regular" integra on bring a trailer right now which is also in Pennsylvania.

I'm not entirely sure I'm going to drive one though. If I find the right one on bring a trailer (or elsewhere) I might just find a way to get there and test drive the one I ultimately buy. We'll see if the opportunity presents itself.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

In other news, a "normal" E30 M3 has just sold at auction for $250,000

 

[Danoff]

In other news, a "normal" E30 M3 has just sold at auction for $250,000

It's probably one of the most pristine examples in existence anywhere. I was watching that one. This integra type r closes in an hour:

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2001-acura-integra-type-r-34/

It's not the one for me though.

 

[Rallywagon]

I need to stay off that site... that said, an Integra is what you've decided on aye? Haven't totally followed this thread and just now getting caught up. Can't say a Honda would ever be my choice, but if i had to go fwd Honda it would be that or a Prelude

 

[Danoff]

I need to stay off that site... that said, an Integra is what you've decided on aye? Haven't totally followed this thread and just now getting caught up. Can't say a Honda would ever be my choice, but if i had to go fwd Honda it would be that or a Prelude

Yea I'm developing a bit of a japanese collection it seems. I love the way 90s hondas feel. I really liked my RSX-S, and I think the integra R has a lot of that 90s honda character without being quite as... serious as the NSX. Not that the NSX is particularly serious, but it's more serious than an integra.

With the E30 M3 I just kept comparing it to the NSX and thinking... I would just get an NSX. It's so much better. Basically I would take either the NSX or even the MR2 over the E30 pretty much every time. And based on the fact that they're easier to maintain, the E30 just seemed like it didn't make much sense. I liked the feel of the E30 325 I drove better than the M3 because it... I dunno... it sparked more joy.

Anyway I think the integra R is that (I still haven't driven one), and it's rare and collectible. So I'm like 90% sure it's the one.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Yea I'm developing a bit of a japanese collection it seems. I love the way 90s hondas feel. I really liked my RSX-S, and I think the integra R has a lot of that 90s honda character without being quite as... serious as the NSX. Not that the NSX is particularly serious, but it's more serious than an integra.

With the E30 M3 I just kept comparing it to the NSX and thinking... I would just get an NSX. It's so much better. Basically I would take either the NSX or even the MR2 over the E30 pretty much every time. And based on the fact that they're easier to maintain, the E30 just seemed like it didn't make much sense. I liked the feel of the E30 325 I drove better than the M3 because it... I dunno... it sparked more joy.

Anyway I think the integra R is that (I still haven't driven one), and it's rare and collectible. So I'm like 90% sure it's the one.

Are you aiming for a pristine example or a driver? Just curious. I see them pop up for sale around me every few months (there must have been a lot sold out here originally. In fact, if you're interested in overpaying for a badly modified AND salvage-titled car, theres one available now!

https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/cto/d/alameda-beautiful-acura-integra-type/7164649759.html

I'm sure he's of the "I know what I got!" variety of sellers. Seriously, I've seen clean, stock sub 80k mile cars sell for that money recently, this guy is out of his mind.

 

[Danoff]

Are you aiming for a pristine example or a driver? Just curious. I see them pop up for sale around me every few months (there must have been a lot sold out here originally. In fact, if you're interested in overpaying for a badly modified AND salvage-titled car, theres one available now!

https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/cto/d/alameda-beautiful-acura-integra-type/7164649759.html

I'm sure he's of the "I know what I got!" variety of sellers. Seriously, I've seen clean, stock sub 80k mile cars sell for that money recently, this guy is out of his mind.

I'm looking for what most people would call pristine. Stock, or as close to stock as possible, sub 60k mi, well maintained. No accidents, no repaint. I'm not waiting for like... sub 10k mi though. Not that pristine. So depending on who you talk to I'm looking for a pristine example, or a driver.

I'm ballparking about $50k for whatever I find.

 

[Rallywagon]

Ahh, I think my issue is we likely have big differences in driving "personality" if you will. I haven't bought a FWD car since 06 (we do have a Mazda now, but that was the wife's purchase, not mine) and would much prefer the M3 over the NSX or MR2. Rally racing and Targa Newfoundland were what really pulled me at a young age back in the late 80s and 90s. Fwd and MR engined cars tend to not slide enough for my taste.
Not keen on a lotus 7 or Aerial Atom?

 

[Danoff]

Ahh, I think my issue is we likely have big differences in driving "personality" if you will. I haven't bought a FWD car since 06 (we do have a Mazda now, but that was the wife's purchase, not mine) and would much prefer the M3 over the NSX or MR2. Rally racing and Targa Newfoundland were what really pulled me at a young age back in the late 80s and 90s. Fwd and MR engined cars tend to not slide enough for my taste.
Not keen on a lotus 7 or Aerial Atom?

I do not know what you'd prefer out of an E30 M3 over the NSX. The handling is worse, feedback is worse, interior is worse, sound is worse, it's slower, it's way less reliable, it's less attractive, shifting is worse, instruments are worse, materials are worse.

It does have a back seat! And it's easier to get in and out of. That's about it.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

I do not know what you'd prefer out of an E30 M3 over the NSX.

The availability of shops to take your BMW to

 

[Rallywagon]

The availability of shops to take your BMW to

I turn my own wrenches so no worries there.

I do not know what you'd prefer out of an E30 M3 over the NSX. The handling is worse, feedback is worse, interior is worse, sound is worse, it's slower, it's way less reliable, it's less attractive, shifting is worse, instruments are worse, materials are worse.

It does have a back seat! And it's easier to get in and out of. That's about it.

If all of those things were going into consideration, I wouldn't go with any of those cars. I'd buy something practical.
If I'm buying an NSX I'm clearly getting a car for a very specific reason.. motorsports. I'd rather get the M3 as an NSX, and med engined cars in general, don't like to slide. They like to grip until the snap oversteer. An M3 on the otherhand will slide and neutral steer a lot better. But, that being said, neither of those would be my first choice anyway. I would get a lotus 7 or a first gen rx7 and modify it.

 

[Danoff]

If I'm buying an NSX I'm clearly getting a car for a very specific reason.. motorsports.

We're coming at this from very different places then.

I'd rather get the M3 as an NSX, and med engined cars in general, don't like to slide. They like to grip until the snap oversteer. An M3 on the otherhand will slide and neutral steer a lot better. But, that being said, neither of those would be my first choice anyway. I would get a lotus 7 or a first gen rx7 and modify it.

Maybe you're talking about drifting.

Having driven the M3 and NSX in fairly rapid succession, I definitely felt that the NSX was the better handling car, more willing to slip and more communicative about the slip. It does sound like it's not the best for drift setup, but I'm looking to drift (or race) either car.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

I turn my own wrenches so no worries there.

In all seriousness, there is a huge BMW following which allows those shops to exist. That's why that E30 M3 above also was able to reach $250,000 (assuming it's been paid).

Several months ago, a guy started a youtube channel to document his restoration of older BMWs on the side. It took off a bit and now he's most likely going into it full-time.