HFS's Cars

[TVC]

If you get a prelude try to get one with 4WS.

 

[homeforsummer]

@Boz Mon - I'm thinking UK mpg, so early thirties to the gallon should be achieveable. Apparently the 4th gens are more economical than the 5th gens too (makes sense - lighter, sleeker, smaller frontal area) and 35mpg combined over here is achievable apparently.

Yeah, I was looking at them before I got the Saab. Super awesome, individual, but like yourself, I wasn't prepared to spend $25k on one, that's almost double what I brought the Saab for.

$25k AUS is about £12k at the moment, second hand ones are much cheaper. The cheapest in the UK are going for about £4.5k at the moment, though I'd be wary of getting one that cheap so I'd add another £1k to that to be safe. Well, I would if I had any of that money

If you get a prelude try to get one with 4WS.

Is there any specific reason I should try and go for 4WS? I've heard both positive (good in certain situations) and negative (not good in others, heavy, more to go wrong) things about it, so I've been unusure if it's any good or not.

 

[YSSMAN]

I'd personally avoid 4WS.

Sure, its a neat trick. Yes, there are performance advantages to it. But, the problem is, if it breaks... Big bucks. HUGE bucks. There is a reason why they didn't make it an option very long in the second and fifth generations, and that would be it.

 

[Boz Mon]

Not sure, but there may be 5th gens in the UK with 4ws, I know the JDM 5th gens had it for awhile

 

[homeforsummer]

As far as I'm aware, all UK VTis of any 4th or 5th gen had 4WS (though I might be mistaken), which does play on my mind a little. Would be very nice to have the VTi, but at the end of the day the cost is important to me and I'd like to not have things that could potentially go wrong in an expensive fashion. Especially as I've had a bit of a money crisis today.

 

[niky]

4WS would be nice, but when going for cars of a certain age, it's always a KISS proposition. Less stuff that can break, less headache. Hell, if I could buy a Honda Integra with no ABS and wind-down windows... I would...

 

[homeforsummer]

If I could buy an Integra full stop I would Damn Honda not officially importing them... (well, apart from the expensive Type R)

 

[Pupik]

The 5th gen autos are the only ones you need to steer clear of. It has a "sport shift" auto that fails, and there aren't many shops that can service them. The 5th gens have some minor differences from 97-98, and 99-01 this should not have any influence on your purchase.

From my experience at Honda, the warranties for the automatic transmissions on some Preludes were extended to ~109,000 miles. I replaced two for Preludes (an '00 and a '01) that were making odd shifts or a light appeared on the dash. The customer paid nothing, but they were without a car for about 10 days each, since Honda special-orders each transmission for every car that exhibits a problem, even though a batch of 98-03 Accord/Prelude/Odyssey autos are suspect.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure if that benefit carries over to Euro-spec cars.

 

[Boz Mon]

From my experience at Honda, the warranties for the automatic transmissions on some Preludes were extended to ~109,000 miles. I replaced two for Preludes (an '00 and a '01) that were making odd shifts or a light appeared on the dash. The customer paid nothing, but they were without a car for about 10 days each, since Honda special-orders each transmission for every car that exhibits a problem, even though a batch of 98-03 Accord/Prelude/Odyssey autos are suspect.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure if that benefit carries over to Euro-spec cars.

I am pretty sure that the 97-98 5th gens were SOL on this warranty extension

 

[mustangGT90210]

I can vouch for 4th gen(92-96) Preludes. I drove a '92 Si with an H22 swapped in. Goes like bat out of hell, looks great, stable feeling, seats are great, shifter is wonderful, dashboard is a love it or hate it thing, I love it. If one of these showed up in my price range, I'd be all over it in a second. H22 engined 'Ludes over here do 0-60 in ~6.5 seconds, H23's in about 7.5-8.0 I believe.

JUMP ON IT!

 

[Boz Mon]

Oh, I forgot about the 4th gen seats, they are possibly the greatest things ever....

 

[homeforsummer]

I really like the dashboards in the 4th gen Preludes, actually. They never seemed to get much praise from the press for some reason, but owners seem to love them. The 5th gen isn't nearly as interesting, though I do like that interior for different reasons (cossetting, better equipped, probably in better nick than most 4th gens by now).

Are the 4th gen seats good then? They look an odd shape, I quite like it.

 

[Boz Mon]

Going from a 4th gen to a 5th, I miss the 4th gen seats so much

 

[homeforsummer]

Had a close look at this today:

BMW 318ti Compact. Didn't catch the mileage, or the year, but I'm going back to test drive it on tuesday morning. Price is around £1.7k, a little over my budget. At first glance, previous owner had a dog (hair in the boot), there's no stereo, there are lots of little rust spots on the arches and randomly about the car (nothing major), a badly touched-up spot on the passenger door about the size of a dime, the official toolkit and first aid box are missing, and the dealer doesn't have any service history for it. The test drive will be pretty much to decide whether I like the 318ti as a car, rather than to be interested in that model itself. The dealer was a little too pushy too, I reckon he thinks I'm a dead cert for buying it

I also saw this today, and drove it for ten mins too:

1994 BMW 316i Compact (earliest of this model). Smaller engine (1.6 8v with just over 100bhp instead of 1.9 16v with 140bhp, though only 25nm less torque and at 600rpm lower too, so not that bad. Much better condition, virtually no rust at all (literally, a couple of bubbles on a rear arch). Lots of service history (last serviced in November), records of at least 9 MOTs. Clean as anything. Drove nicely, clutch and brakes felt good, accelerated well, nice steering, gearbox felt pretty good, and the whole thing felt very well screwed together. No rattles at all. 97k miles, and price was £1200. Dealer was a nice bloke, no hard-sell at all.

It's very tempting indeed, but I'm not nearly ready enough to put my car for sale yet, and I'm no way part exchanging it as I'll only get about £500 max for it rather than nearer £1k. I'm going to step up a gear with fixing stuff that needs doing on the Ford and keep searching for Compacts to see how they feel generally. Ideally I'd like a 318ti rather than a 316i if I got a Compact, but I'd certainly reconsider based on condition.

As for other cars, it's amazing how difficult Preludes and EK Civics are to come by, without travelling half way down the country. All the 1.6 Corollas are 5dr so not my cup of tea, and the few MX5s I've seen have either been a bit too rusty for my liking, or equipped with awful mods (tasteless alloys, nasty aftermarket steering wheel/pedals/gearknob) - so basically they've been "projects" which isn't really what I want.

Keeping my eyes peeled though. Would definitely like to try a Civic/Corolla/Prelude/MX5 just to compare them to the BMWs. Keeping my eyes peeled.

 

[Jondot]

You have no idea how much I want a Roadie . On fuel and insurance costs over a year, it's cheaper than virtually all the cars I'm looking at (about £50 less a year than a 1.5 Civic EK). It's just such a pity the initial purchase price is so high, even if you take into account the price of selling my current car.

I know! It's even comparatively cheap to insure for me. Actually, having said that, it's about a grand more than a SportKa...

 

[homeforsummer]

I know! It's even comparatively cheap to insure for me. Actually, having said that, it's about a grand more than a SportKa...

There's no way I'd get the SportKa over a Roadster. Don't get me wrong, I like the SportKa a lot (I even like the StreetKa) but the Roadster is my idea of perfect transportation at this stage in my life. Well, not completely perfect obviously because I can't afford one, but you know what I mean. There are only three other cars that spring to mind that would be tempting at that price point (roughly £5-6k) - Ford Racing Puma, Audi A2 and the Honda Insight.

But yeah, £1500 budget so the above will have to wait for another day

 

[YSSMAN]

I'm extremely intrigued by the Puma, so if I were you, I'd be giving it a look. I have a strange obsession with the Honda Insight as well, something that I had been secretly considering before buying my Celica. The fuel economy rocks, people here have been saying that 70+ US MPG is easy to come by (a major plus if you do a lot of highway driving), but even then, the 30+ US MPG in the city is beyond awesome as well.

RE: The BMWs

I'm not sure how I feel about them. If you dig it, I'd say go for it. But in the eyes of most BMW folks, it seems like they're a bit "iffy."

 

[Leonidae]

Personally I'd do bit more scouting about the 318ti's. there could be a private seller instead of used car lot, that is willing to sell better example for reasonable price. And, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the 18/1.9l engine bit more fresh design than the 1.6l? and the 1.8/1.9l units have chain instead of timing belt, so one less thing to worry, dunno how the 1.6l units are..

 

[Rotary Junkie]

1.8/1.9l units have chain instead of timing belt, so one less thing to worry

Chain-driven OHC setups can still very easily have issues and eat themselves... Chains last a bit longer though in theory.

 

[homeforsummer]

I'm extremely intrigued by the Puma, so if I were you, I'd be giving it a look. I have a strange obsession with the Honda Insight as well, something that I had been secretly considering before buying my Celica. The fuel economy rocks, people here have been saying that 70+ US MPG is easy to come by (a major plus if you do a lot of highway driving), but even then, the 30+ US MPG in the city is beyond awesome as well.

With regard to the Puma, I'm no longer really interested in the standard model (given that it's essentially based on my car, I expect that it'll eventually have all the same problems I'm having, just more expensive to correct). The Racing Puma is just a car that I'd like to own one day, but I'd need at least triple my current budget to own one. Ditto the Insight, but they also suffer from being even more rare than the RP, and even more in demand thanks to how well high-mpg cars do at the moment. Which has pushed the prices up. I'm sure early Insights were valued at £3k a couple of years back, but I haven't seen one for sale for less than about £5.5k recently.

RE: The BMWs

I'm not sure how I feel about them. If you dig it, I'd say go for it. But in the eyes of most BMW folks, it seems like they're a bit "iffy."

I'm aware that they're an acquired taste, and that a lot of people seem to dismiss them as not being a "real BMW". But then there are still plenty of people who consider a Porsche 924 or Boxter, or even a watercooled Porsche, to not be a "real Porsche", and I tend to think of these people as idiots, so those sort of comments on the Compact don't really phase me.

As far as non-judgemental iffiness goes, from what I've heard they're generally better built than the normal E36 models because BMW had already had the opportunity to iron out any little problems in the two years prior to the Compact being launched. And as far as the white car I drove goes, for 15 years old it was immaculate and drove very nicely.

Personally I'd do bit more scouting about the 318ti's. there could be a private seller instead of used car lot, that is willing to sell better example for reasonable price. And, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the 18/1.9l engine bit more fresh design than the 1.6l? and the 1.8/1.9l units have chain instead of timing belt, so one less thing to worry, dunno how the 1.6l units are..

You're right about the engine designs. The 316i with the actual 1.6 engine was sold for four years, before the 316i gained the 1.9 unit. It didn't gain any power with that engine but torque is 15Nm higher and produced 1400rpm lower, again an 8v engine. The 318ti is 16v, has a cam chain as you mentioned, and develops a fair bit more power but not significantly more torque until the 98> model. With regard to the 1.6's longevity, I can't believe it's too bad as I think it's essentially the same unit as powered the E30 316i, and there are plenty of those on much more than 97k miles.

If I went down the BMW Compact route I would prefer the 318ti, but it'd be foolish to discount ones in as good condition as the one I drove yesterday just because of the engine.

 

[slidesquad#1]

In all seriousness, just get out and drive as many examples of cars in your budget, and settle on whichever one you like best. From what you say, you're not interested in going fast, you're not taking it to the track etc, you just want solid reliable A to B transportation. For your requirements, does the 40 odd horsepower (i.e. the disparity between the 316 and 318 BMWs you're looking at, really make that much of a difference? Personally, if that was my criteria for a car, I'd pay much much more attention to how the car in question has been looked after than what the quoted horsepower and torque figures were a decade ago. Things like longevity, as mentioned in your last post are also quite heavily dependent on how the car has been treated over the years, and from personal history, I'd say it probably plays as much of a role, if not more, in terms of reliability as the improvements made by the manufacturers over time.

When looking at cars on a limited budget, you're giong to be extraordinarily lucky if you can find one without a few niggling issues here and there, and the best way to minimise that is by physically checking out and driving as many cars as you can that meet your requirements.

Then again, I'm not the best person to talk about thorough research and test driving before buying.
My first car: We were driving to look at a Nissan Bluebird. Saw this Mazda Eunos parked outside a house with a For Sale sign. Had a test drive. Turned up to see the Nissan in the Eunos. The Bluebird "wasn't quite right for me".

My old Legacy wagon: My dad was thinking of selling it. Threw a number at him, car was mine.

The Evo: I was contemplating getting rid of the wagon because it seemed the engine was on the way out. One of my dad's mates, who imports cars, mentioned he had an Evo coming over. Drove it. Bought it.

But to reiterate my point, ignore the figures and such to a certain extent, and just test drive more cars. You're going to come across something you'll like.

 

[homeforsummer]

In all seriousness, just get out and drive as many examples of cars in your budget, and settle on whichever one you like best. From what you say, you're not interested in going fast, you're not taking it to the track etc, you just want solid reliable A to B transportation. For your requirements, does the 40 odd horsepower (i.e. the disparity between the 316 and 318 BMWs you're looking at, really make that much of a difference? Personally, if that was my criteria for a car, I'd pay much much more attention to how the car in question has been looked after than what the quoted horsepower and torque figures were a decade ago. Things like longevity, as mentioned in your last post are also quite heavily dependent on how the car has been treated over the years, and from personal history, I'd say it probably plays as much of a role, if not more, in terms of reliability as the improvements made by the manufacturers over time.

When looking at cars on a limited budget, you're giong to be extraordinarily lucky if you can find one without a few niggling issues here and there, and the best way to minimise that is by physically checking out and driving as many cars as you can that meet your requirements.

Thanks for the advice, much appreciated 👍 You've more or less described what I'm doing anyway, though it's always nice to hear people's opinions on things hence the little updates when I start looking at new stuff or want feedback on a particular model.

Regarding performance, you're right in that it's not my number one priority like it might be for some, but at the same time it doesn't mean that I'm not interested in performance at all, otherwise I'd be quite happy going for a dull repmobile or another city car. Everything I'm looking at is a fair bit faster than my current car, and coincidentally my main choices at the moment all have similar performance. Knocking 4-5 seconds off the benchmark 0-60 time and adding around 20mph or so to the top end is a welcome increase but I'm not fussed about anything quicker than that, for now. Having that little extra performance is something that might keep me interested in the car for a little bit longer - useful to consider when I'm intending to buy something that'll last me another 5-6 years.

BMW 318ti

Just got back from testing the blue one on the previous page. Not a long drive, but got a chance to open it up a little and there were also a few roundabouts along the route to get an impression of how it drives. Found out the age of this one - R-reg, so 97/98, and 110k miles on the clock, so about 13k more than the 316i I drove the other day. Felt equally tight, as it should, and accelerated nicely too.

Interesting to realise how similarly weighted the steering is compared to my car, despite the power assistance. It's lighter and you get a bit less feel when you're cornering hard, and obviously at an absolute standstill it's lighter, but everywhere else it feels similar, which I like. Quicker rack though, obviously.

I won't be buying this particular 318ti (too many niggles - no stereo, a little too much over my budget, wobbly gearknob, too many marks on the paint etc) but the model itself interests me so I'll try and test a few more.

Still need to find Civics/Preludes/Corollas/MX5s too. If there are any near me then they aren't advertised online...

 

[homeforsummer]

Not a bad car for £995, is it? Drove it yesterday morning for a good 15-20mins. It's another 316i, about 109k miles on the clock, good service history again like the white one, and not too many blemishes again either. Bit of broken trim in the passenger footwell, a broken glovebox handle and the bonnet struts are a little weak, but otherwise it's another Compact in very nice nick. Could do with a jolly good valet inside though, as you can see from the 3rd pic.

Finally sourced a Civic and an MX-5 nearby - a 1.5 VTEC LS and an early 90s 1.6 Eunos Roadster respectively, so going to have a look at both tomorrow, to break up the chain of BMWs I'm looking at! The garage that has the Civic in also has... a 318ti Sport compact (with a highish spec too) so I may even have a look at that too.

 

[YSSMAN]

A thousand quid seems reasonable for a car like that, but I guess my primary concern would be what kind of repair costs would be associated with the car after buying it... Especially if the struts might be going bad.

Give that Miata a look, I have to admit I'm a bit impartial. Overall, I think that may make you happier by day's end.

 

[Leonidae]

Pfft.. bonnet struts aren't that bad, bit of searching in the web will get you new ones rather cheaply. some TLC and few quids should restore the stern German atmosphere in the cabin as well. Best thing is that it has low miles and original alloys that seem to be unscathed. Paint seems the be in good shape as well, and if it isn't, bit of wax and labour takes care of that. while it's not a rocket with approx 100hp, the driveability is in its own class, somewhat even with Miata/MX-5 I dare to say.

 

[niky]

Early 90's Eunos? Certainly not the one with the 90 or so horsepower? Slow as government... but still awful fun once you get going.

 

[Leonidae]

if it's the 1.6l Eunos, avoid it.

 

[homeforsummer]

A thousand quid seems reasonable for a car like that, but I guess my primary concern would be what kind of repair costs would be associated with the car after buying it... Especially if the struts might be going bad.

It does seem that "they're all like that, sir". Each Compact I've tested so far has had either weak bonnet or boot struts - I think they're probably just not quite up to the task of holding a heavy boot/bonnet after all these years.

As for repair costs, obviously they're something I'd be hoping not to have too many of, but there were a bunch of bills for general service items in the service history book, and from independant garages the prices don't seem much more than my current car.

Give that Miata a look, I have to admit I'm a bit impartial. Overall, I think that may make you happier by day's end.

I'm definitely gonna have a look. I had a snoop around it the other day but in the ten minutes that I was there, nobody approached me. I'm not keen on hard sell but it's preferable to being ignored...

Pfft.. bonnet struts aren't that bad, bit of searching in the web will get you new ones rather cheaply. some TLC and few quids should restore the stern German atmosphere in the cabin as well. Best thing is that it has low miles and original alloys that seem to be unscathed. Paint seems the be in good shape as well, and if it isn't, bit of wax and labour takes care of that. while it's not a rocket with approx 100hp, the driveability is in its own class, somewhat even with Miata/MX-5 I dare to say.

Paint is good. No rust and doesn't even seem to be stone-chipped too much. Wheels were clean too, again, didn't seem to be scuffed.

Early 90's Eunos? Certainly not the one with the 90 or so horsepower? Slow as government... but still awful fun once you get going.

if it's the 1.6l Eunos, avoid it.

As far as I'm aware, the Japanese Import Eunos never had the 1.6 90bhp option. They simply discontinued the 1.6 when the 1.8 came out. I think only the European market got the de-tuned 1.6, from 1994 onwards. So the Eunos I'm going to look at should be the 120bhp version. In fact, the ebay ad says 110bhp, though I can't see any evidence on the internet to back up this particular figure.

There's no reason per se to avoid the 1.6.

- EDIT -

Just got back from driving a few more. Finally got to drive a Civic after hunting around for one for ages, and it was actually the exact model I'm interested in too, the 1.5 VTEC. For those interested, the VTEC is more geared for economy, with a switchover at 2500rpm, where the lower rev range is a kind of lean burn mode (Specifications on wiki). A little green "eco mode" light comes on when you're cruising in 3rd/4th/5th at less than about 2000rpm. That said, it also feels quite quick. The red-line is still over 7k rpm and the gears seem quite long - when I opened it up a bit, 2nd gear took me to over 70mph with a bit more to go too. All the controls felt pretty good (especially the gearshift), even the steering, which I'd been led to believe was a Honda weak point. I could certainly live with the performance (10s to 60) and certainly live with the economy (Honda quote 43mpg on average). The particular model I drove had a fair bit of rust on the trailing edge of the rear arches, which looks like a bit of a collection spot for water and road crap. But at £995, I wouldn't mind having to spend a bit more to repair it, and it was clean everywhere else. Pic below is from the ad, didn't manage to take a pic myself:

At the same garage was the BMW 318ti I mentioned further up the page. It was the Sport model, so had a very good level of equipment: Leather seats, ///M bodykit, wheels and steering wheel, ///M sport suspension, aircon, and traction control. Very good condition inside and out, the seats were fantastic (sports seats, as well as being leather trimmed). On the drive, it felt great. Best steering of anything I've driven before - direct, quick, great feel, perfect weighting (the wide tyres and uprated suspension probably helped this). Best gearshift of the four Compacts I've driven, felt nice and tight. Great engine too. Tramlined more than the others, again probably due to the tyres and suspension. The only issues I could find were that the airbag warning light didn't extinguish the whole time I drove it, and that it was wearing some complete no-brand tyres, can't remember the make but I'd never heard of them before. Also, it's at the high end of my price range - just under £1500. Pics below:

Lovely, isn't it?

I now have a plan for my car too. I'm taking it home (at uni at the mo) in a few weeks. By then, I will hopefully have sourced and fitted a non-leaky sunroof, and cleaned the interior (thanks to some tips from Moglet). I'm then leaving it at home where it'll get a new sump cheaply from a local and trusted garage, and a general tidy and clean. It'll then get listed as a classified ad on ebay at a competitive price, and I'll write a spiffing ad for it to raise it above the general crappy standard of ebay adverts. Hopefully then, within the next month or so I'll be car-less for the first time in over six years, and then I'll finally have the money to actually buy something

 

[Leonidae]

Oh my, that black Ti is a gem.. she's well worth of her price, go for it!

and when I said that you should avoid the 1.6l engine, I really meant it. google the engine code. That engine has plenty of design flaws that might end up being expensive sooner or later.

 

[homeforsummer]

Oh my, that black Ti is a gem.. she's well worth of her price, go for it!

I'm in the unfortunate position of not actually having the money at the mo, otherwise I would! It really was a nice car, and it's even pretty insurable. The only thing that I would have to check out is the seriousness (or lack thereof) of the airbag warning light being constantly lit.

and when I said that you should avoid the 1.6l engine, I really meant it. google the engine code. That engine has plenty of design flaws that might end up being expensive sooner or later.

Really? Could you possibly send me a few links to these pages/articles, because I can't seem to find any myself. The engine code for the NA MX-5 1.6 is B6P, and the only stuff I can find is saying that if anything, the engine is quite over-engineered for it's application, being non-interference, with oil-spray cooling for the pistons, and being a naturally-aspirated version of a turbocharged engine (from the contemporary 323 Turbo), so basically having a block and head that's designed for much more power.