How Did Polyphony Digital Pull Off Graphics and Dynamic weather on PS4

[xMAXIx79]

Omg some here dont understand how Grafic performance scale with Details AND Resolution. A PS5 GT7 runs at 4k some say stable on 60 FPS some say it runs faster then 60 FPS. SO The PS4 support max FullHD you need 50-70% from that PS5 Power for FullHD + some Details lower and GT7 can run on an PS4.
Of cause on a PS4 GT7 want look soo "nice".. but hey it will looking better as GTS or minimum same like GTS.
Than i'm fine with that. Ot will have an over /better Engine for running, maybe it runs better than GTS on a PS4.

SO OR SO i try to buy a PS5 for Standard Price and if i get a Deal, i'm happy with that.

 

[Griffith500]

This post shows a very high fidelity time lapse, that's the kind of detail I haven't seen before.

Flight Simulator is gorgeous obviously but I can see that the visual changes are made by some kind of noise function affecting the lower density fringes of the clouds. They don't change shape, fundamentally.

The Assetto Corsa mod is also definitely very impressive and very pretty, but whole cloud layers just appear.


I would assume the graphical representation can indeed be tuned to suit any computational load independently of the underlying simulation, e.g. in terms of "voxel" density and time resolution also.

Rendering volumetric clouds is very likely out on PS4 though because you have to render them every frame in case of lighting or viewpoint changes. They are computationally expensive. The simulation likely isn't.


Notice that GTSport doesn't have volumetric clouds, the sky is a pure layered texture. You could make that texture dynamic, perhaps driven by the weather simulation, then you can update it however infrequently you want and use tricks to avoid lighting and viewpoint issues, at the expense of any real depth to the effect.

So GT7 on PS4 will have the dynamic skies but they won't feature volumetric clouds, so they won't be as pretty, and also likely will update more infrequently.

 

[Scaff]

The Assetto Corsa mod is also definitely very impressive and very pretty, but whole cloud layers just appear.

Keep in mind that's 24 hours condensed into 60 seconds, as such when running in real-time the cloud layers don't just appear.

 

[regnar]

Maybe I'm wrong, it would seem if the dynamic weather is running at real time it would be less taxing to the system than running at some advanced speed 2X, 4X etc., since the calculation would be spread out over time.

 

[warp9engage]

This post shows a very high fidelity time lapse, that's the kind of detail I haven't seen before.

I was impressed by that bit of footage as well, but I can't see that same smooth cloud morphing, in the more recent State of Play time-lapses anymore, despite the fact that the time is accelerated, at a similar rate, in both clips (observe the Sun's rate of movement). The cloud effects have become choppy now.

Flight Simulator is gorgeous obviously but I can see that the visual changes are made by some kind of noise function affecting the lower density fringes of the clouds. They don't change shape, fundamentally.

Forgive me, but I don't quite understand what you mean by this sentence. What do you mean by the clouds only change in the lower density fringes? To me, it seems the clouds do morph a lot, much like real clouds.

Rendering volumetric clouds is very likely out on PS4 though because you have to render them every frame in case of lighting or viewpoint changes. They are computationally expensive. The simulation likely isn't.

I agree that proper volumetric clouds are out of reach for the PS4 systems. In fact, what I think is being done is, just like you said:

You could make that texture dynamic, perhaps driven by the weather simulation, then you can update it however infrequently you want and use tricks to avoid lighting and viewpoint issues, at the expense of any real depth to the effect.

That's what I think they're doing, even in that PS5 State of Play video. The Trial Mountain time-lapse you showed looks like something proper, but the Spa and Laguna Seca ones are more underwhelming, and look like this process you've put forward.

Maybe I'm wrong, it would seem if the dynamic weather is running at real time it would be less taxing to the system than running at some advanced speed 2X, 4X etc., since the calculation would be spread out over time.

It's all about the amount of times, per unit of time, you update the conditions. The more times per unit of time you update, the more accurate it will be, but also the more calculations will need to be made, in a shorter period of time, and the more processing power will be required. Like Griffith said, the PS4 will have to run at a lower update rate. The question is, did the PS5 also take a hit in order to keep weather equal and fair across platforms.

 

[Griffith500]

I see what you mean about FS but there's definitely something missing by comparison. It still looks like layers fading in and out, with noise.

If you speed up the time steps of the game, your simulation won't necessarily follow suit at the same intervals. It may become unstable or not yield the correct results, so it is likely that it's more computationally expensive to fast forward the simulation itself. Perhaps accelerated time might eschew volumetric clouds to compensate? Implying of course the simulation is gpu based.

Maybe some of the sparser skyscapes don't warrant the volumetric approach, or the specific volumetric rendering technique is underwhelming with smaller, wispy clouds? In any case it's actually the lack of smooth transitions that ruins the effect, to my eye. Hopefully that's always an option.

Time will tell

 

[Chris30]

See it would probably be a lot of coding/data involved in trying to plan the weather. And would the game start to lag on the ps4. Hope not, cause I want to keep this, when it dies, then i'll upgrade it to a ps5, but I don't want to change anything right now. What does flight simulator mean? Hopefully PD will work something out.

 

[Vspectra]

That's what I think they're doing, even in that PS5 State of Play video. The Trial Mountain time-lapse you showed looks like something proper, but the Spa and Laguna Seca ones are more underwhelming, and look like this process you've put forward.

The clouds in the SoP are volumetric. It would not be possible to have the clouds looking this full with volume and gradually and dynamically lit by the sun like this if they were just flat skybox textures looping across the sky like in GT5/6.

 

[JDMKING13]

The clouds in the SoP are volumetric. It would not be possible to have the clouds looking this full with volume and gradually and dynamically lit by the sun like this if they were just flat skybox textures looping across the sky like in GT5/6.

I think I’m going straight to Suzuka when I get GT7 start my session early morning and drive til it gets dark!!!

 

[s0cks]

I don't think I ever even look at the sky when racing, haha. Amazing how worked up some people are getting over something that really has little bearing on the racing experience - the clouds that is, not the rain.

Dynamic weather is only on select tracks anyway, and it shouldn't be that CPU intensive once you have the model worked out. You just bang in a few variables and the algorithm figures out the weather for the race. It might be taxing on the GPU to render accurate clouds, but as this isn't a flight sim and you're always viewing it from the ground, I'm sure they have some tricks up their sleeve to keep performance good.

Even the night to day cycle is only available on certain tracks that have 24hr races.

Also remember that this is apparently an online only game. Which suggests they could potentially outsource computations to the cloud for weather and track moisture.

 

[Vspectra]

I don't think I ever even look at the sky when racing, haha. Amazing how worked up some people are getting over something that really has little bearing on the racing experience - the clouds that is, not the rain.

Dynamic weather is only on select tracks anyway, and it shouldn't be that CPU intensive once you have the model worked out. You just bang in a few variables and the algorithm figures out the weather for the race. It might be taxing on the GPU to render accurate clouds, but as this isn't a flight sim and you're always viewing it from the ground, I'm sure they have some tricks up their sleeve to keep performance good.

Even the night to day cycle is only available on certain tracks that have 24hr races.

Also remember that this is apparently an online only game. Which suggests they could potentially outsource computations to the cloud for weather and track moisture.

Kaz actually confirmed all tracks have dynamic procedural cloud formations, just not all tracks have rain. And all tracks have dynamic time progression from morning to evening, but not all tracks have full 24h time. imo having actual 3d clouds being rendered for dynamic time and weather is a really great addition and adds quite a bit to changing the track atmosphere throughout the race, you won't ever get the exact same skies repeated over again either.

 

[Yard_Sale]

Yea but still…

I’m never looking at clouds in awe…wether I’m racing on the interwebz or IRL.

Still I think it’s cool tho. Hopefully PD’s decision to make 3D clouds didn’t pull valuable horsepower from the operating system that could have been used more wisely

 

[Griffith500]

I love a cloud, me. I think you're missing out

3D clouds don't tax the operating system, that's pure GPU fare right there. And this is PD, they will go the extra mile to optimise their stuff to make sure they have the headroom for pretty graphics.

Quite often the complaints about the way the games work have nothing to do with computational power anyway.

 

[Lord Protector]

Maybe I'm wrong, it would seem if the dynamic weather is running at real time it would be less taxing to the system than running at some advanced speed 2X, 4X etc., since the calculation would be spread out over time.

Maybe it is spread out, and once it calcutes enough data, weathet gets updates.

 

[Ramosis]

Cloud is the new tree.

 

[warp9engage]

About pulling off dynamic weather on PS4, I remembered there was a game, with a pretty ambitious weather system, that did just that, and it released the same year as GT Sport: Project CARS 2.

PCARS 2 had the LiveTrack 3.0 system, which included things like:

• weather databases that allowed for the same weather conditions, of the date specified, to be replicated;
• accurate night skies based on location;
• accurate seasons based on location;
• accurate amounts of daylight depending on the location and time of year;
• dynamic track temperatures that are affected by things like amount of sunlight, shade, rain, cars driving over each area;
• dynamic drying line;
• dynamic puddle formation;
• localized rainfall i.e parts of the track where it's raining and parts that are still dry;
• dynamic rubbering of the track;

It's safe to say, all the things PD are doing can be done in the older hardware, and have been done before.

 

[ArR29]

About pulling off dynamic weather on PS4, I remembered there was a game, with a pretty ambitious weather system, that did just that, and it released the same year as GT Sport: Project CARS 2.

PCARS 2 had the LiveTrack 3.0 system, which included things like:

• weather databases that allowed for the same weather conditions, of the date specified, to be replicated;
• accurate night skies based on location;
• accurate seasons based on location;
• accurate amounts of daylight depending on the location and time of year;
• dynamic track temperatures that are affected by things like amount of sunlight, shade, rain, cars driving over each area;
• dynamic drying line;
• dynamic puddle formation;
• localized rainfall i.e parts of the track where it's raining and parts that are still dry;
• dynamic rubbering of the track;

It's safe to say, all the things PD are doing can be done in the older hardware, and have been done before.

It's not even about whether the PS4 could render complex weather system or not, I think OP is more concern about the trade offs. PC2 doesn't run at a stable 60fps on PS4 at all, so I don't think it's a good example of that.

 

[warp9engage]

It's not even about whether the PS4 could render complex weather system or not, I think OP is more concern about the trade offs. PC2 doesn't run at a stable 60fps on PS4 at all, so I don't think it's a good example of that.

When it comes to trade-offs, that will depend on how willing Polyphony is to repeat GT6 performance. That will dictate how hard they may try to push the old hardware for the full visuals.

 

[Scaff]

It's not even about whether the PS4 could render complex weather system or not, I think OP is more concern about the trade offs. PC2 doesn't run at a stable 60fps on PS4 at all, so I don't think it's a good example of that.

It's a perfectly valid example, particularly as PD have had four extra years of development on PC2 and the advantage of being a first party studio.

 

[anthonyfa18]

It's a perfectly valid example, particularly as PD have had four extra years of development on PC2 and the advantage of being a first party studio.

I own Project cars 2 and The weather and car detail and truck detail is so bad. If u put it side by side it’s is just bad. From graphics to FPS count even on a PS4 pro it doesn’t run well. Although I never tried it on my PS5

 

[ArR29]

It's a perfectly valid example, particularly as PD have had four extra years of development on PC2 and the advantage of being a first party studio.

1st party or not is irrelevant when the hardware is the limiting factor.

 

[Scaff]

I own Project cars 2 and The weather and car detail and truck detail is so bad. If u put it side by side it’s is just bad. From graphics to FPS count even on a PS4 pro it doesn’t run well. Although I never tried it on my PS5

I've run it on a Pro and it runs just fine.

Please also don't use textspeach.

1st party or not is irrelevant when the hardware is the limiting factor.

It's not when it comes to extracting the most out of hardware, direct access to it from day one is a significant advantage. As is being involved in the actual development of the hardware.

 

[ArR29]

I've run it on a Pro and it runs just fine.

Please also don't use textspeach.


It's not when it comes to extracting the most out of hardware, direct access to it from day one is a significant advantage. As is being involved in the actual development of the hardware.

A lot of PS3 games developed by Sony's major 1st party studios have inconsistent performance despite having all the advantage, time and resources to develop their games, there's no guarantee to that.

 

[Veinz]

I own Project cars 2 and The weather and car detail and truck detail is so bad. If u put it side by side it’s is just bad. From graphics to FPS count even on a PS4 pro it doesn’t run well. Although I never tried it on my PS5

It doesn’t run well on PS5 either.

 

[Scaff]

A lot of PS3 games developed by Sony's major 1st party studios have inconsistent performance despite having all the advantage, time and resources to develop their games, there's no guarantee to that.

The PS3 isn't the PS4 and the ease and advantages of working on the PS4 is well known.

'What about the PS3' isn't the argument you think it is.

 

[05XR8]

PC2 also had advanced physics and detailed damage to work with over GTS. Doesn’t that account for performance?

 

[Scaff]

PC2 also had advanced physics and detailed damage to work with over GTS. Doesn’t that account for performance?

It certainly does, but even with that, on a PS4 Pro PC2 will run at pretty much a locked 60fps (and I've verified that via video capture and frame rate analysis).

DF found it to run at between 1360p and 1440p holding as near as damn it 60fps, with full stormy conditions and full grids.

"The same dynamic set-up is also present on PS4 Pro, which is given full support for this sequel, with both resolution and performance boosts over base hardware. Our measurements suggest that the game features a target resolution of 1440p, but this drops to 1360p during demanding moments, such as racing under stormy conditions with the full quota of 32 cars in play. It's an improvement over base hardware when viewed on a UHD TV, but it isn't enough to pass as native 4K, and the scaled image can look quite rough at times. Opinion on this will vary according to taste, but Project Cars 2 on Pro does support downsampling, so 1080p display users may get the better deal here.

When it comes to delivering a nigh-on solid 60fps gameplay experience, PlayStation 4 Pro mostly delivers, regardless of whether you're playing on a 4K or 1080p display. Frame-rates rarely waver from the desired target, and outside of stormy stress tests with upwards of 16 cars in play, the game holds firm at 60fps, providing a smooth and responsive racing experience."

Project Cars 2 runs best on PlayStation 4 Pro

Project Cars 2 reviews have dropped, the Forza Motorsport 7 demo arrives today and Gran Turismo Sport is en route. It's…

www.eurogamer.net

GTS on a PS4 Pro delivers 1800p/60fps or 1080p with 8xMSAA, but doesn't have to deal with the depth of physics, grid counts or anything like the same level of particle count in wet weather as PC2.

GT Sport on PS4 Pro: 4K impresses, but what about 1080p support?

UPDATE 25/5/17 1:00pm: Sony has been in touch to point out additional 1080p features in Gran Turismo Sport for PS4 Pro …

www.eurogamer.net

So those saying it doesn't run well on the PS4 Pro (and as a result the PS5), are quite frankly talking bollocks. That GTS looks better is no surprise as that's the direction of compromise PD clearly went with, but that doesn't mean that PC2 doesn't run well, rather more that peoples personal bias is coming to the fore (note I don't think this applies to yourself).

GT7 will be trading the damage, physics, by the looks of it particle volume and I think grid size for visuals. That combined with more time and a better understanding makes me quite confident that GT7 can run well on the PS4 Pro.

Now on the base PS4, that's a different matter

 

[Pete_J_C]

here's a vid about the new Horizon: Forbidden West game



completely different genre displayed in this vid obviously, but considering how good PD are at pushing the hardware to it's limits, this should put anyone's worries to rest. after all, horizon has a lot more dynamic stuff going on, much larger zones etc etc

 

[anthonyfa18]

If you like buying physical games, the PS4 version of GT7 will come on two Blu-ray discs according to ShareGameplay.
Gran Turismo 7 has a minimum file size of 110 GB on PS4 and PS5, so you may want to start clearing your hard drive to create some space in time for the launch. This is nearly three times larger than GT Sport’s original file size at launch. However, GT Sport’s file size has increased to around 110 GB with updates

Gran Turismo 7 will come on two discs for PS4

 

[Scaff]

If you like buying physical games, the PS4 version of GT7 will come on two Blu-ray discs according to ShareGameplay.
Gran Turismo 7 has a minimum file size of 110 GB on PS4 and PS5, so you may want to start clearing your hard drive to create some space in time for the launch. This is nearly three times larger than GT Sport’s original file size at launch. However, GT Sport’s file size has increased to around 110 GB with updates

Gran Turismo 7 will come on two discs for PS4

That's most likely the PS4 install size, not a single cross generation PlayStation title has been the same size on both platforms.

The Kraken compression on the PS5 conbined with the SSD has seen sizes reduce by as much as 70%.

I don't think GT7 will reduce by that much, but it certainly will be the smaller of the two.