How in the Frank Bruno did Forza III do it?

[SlipZtrEm]

Lets be honest Turn 10 or MS have made a massive mistake in trying to introduce casual racers and forgetting the hardcore loyal fanbase. Prior to FM3 being released I said this short term gain could mean long term loss and thats exactly how its panned out. Many have left FM3 and are seriously wary of purchasing another racing game from Turn 10. For example the racing team that I belong to was formed back in the FM1 days. The grand total of TRC members currently playing FM3 stands at zero and many have even traded FM3 in.

Meh. On my main GT board (a small, tight-knit group of guys), many of them got rid of GT4 long ago, never bothered picking up GT5P, and all have FM3. And they all enjoy it. You can throw examples like that out for either side, it's pointless and proves nothing.

Lets not delude ourselves the Forza franchise is not even close to challenging GT. I say this based on sales because FM3 sold 2 million copies and GT5P sold 4.9 million copies. Only when the forza franchise sells similiar amount of copies can it be a real competitor against GT.

As Scaff pointed out... sales by year tell a different story. FM3 isn't even a year old yet and it's sold 2 million? I want to know who would view that as anything other than a success.

Still I think deep down Turn 10 know this already. Cast your minds back to E3 2009 when Turn 10 were very arrogant in their presentation and this was followed by the community manager offering free cars if the FM.Net community voted for FM3 in a meaningless poll. Why did they behave in this manner? simple answer is because deep down they knew FM3 cannot compete against GT5 and had to resort to other tactics!!

You mean when they said something along the lines of "upon release, FM3 will be the definitive console racer"? I don't know the exact words, but I've seen something very similar to that tossed around here a few times. I don't see what's wrong with that... not only was it technically true (it all depends on what their criteria is in deciding that)... but seriously, who wouldn't say that about their big, upcoming release? Who has ever gotten up for their presentation to tell the crowd "this game is entirely... adequate. Nothing more!"

I will add all of the above is based on my opinion without any facts!

No way!

 

[Kinetic]

Meh. On my main GT board (a small, tight-knit group of guys), many of them got rid of GT4 long ago, never bothered picking up GT5P, and all have FM3. And they all enjoy it. You can throw examples like that out for either side, it's pointless and proves nothing.



As Scaff pointed out... sales by year tell a different story. FM3 isn't even a year old yet and it's sold 2 million? I want to know who would view that as anything other than a success.



You mean when they said something along the lines of "upon release, FM3 will be the definitive console racer"? I don't know the exact words, but I've seen something very similar to that tossed around here a few times. I don't see what's wrong with that... not only was it technically true (it all depends on what their criteria is in deciding that)... but seriously, who wouldn't say that about their big, upcoming release? Who has ever gotten up for their presentation to tell the crowd "this game is entirely... adequate. Nothing more!"





No way!

those stats are taken why out of proper context due to the fact it was bundled with pretty much every xbox console except the bare bones package. Those are all included as sales, the price you can buy Forza 3 for 2nd hand for about 10 quid which pretty much proves how much this was given away

 

[cobraagent90]

those stats are taken why out of proper context due to the fact it was bundled with pretty much every xbox console except the bare bones package. Those are all included as sales, the price you can buy Forza 3 for 2nd hand for about 10 quid which pretty much proves how much this was given away

Truth be told, Forza 3 didn't sell as much as its predecessors and for that reason MS decided to promote the game with bundles. Anyway, sales matter to the developpers and publishers not to gamers

 

[Kinetic]

exactly, for a game less than a year old to be £17.00 on play, seems like it needs some stimulus, just tired of sales stats constantly being thrown up.

 

[Spagetti69]

If GT 5 was bundled with a playstaion, people here would say it made people want to buy a playstation.

Forza gets bundled with an xbox and people say it's because they can't get rid off forza.

Weird.

 

[Kinetic]

If GT 5 was bundled with a playstaion, people here would say it made people want to buy a playstation.

Forza gets bundled with an xbox and people say it's because they can't get rid off forza.

Weird.

No, now you're making assumptions on nothing

 

[Spagetti69]

Truth be told, Forza 3 didn't sell as much as its predecessors and for that reason MS decided to promote the game with bundles

sorry cobra just using this as an example.

I'm not assuming nothing.
I'm not gonna go searching for posts where people say GT5 is a system seller, but there are such posts believe me.

 

[Kinetic]

sorry cobra just using this as an example.

I'm not assuming nothing.
I'm not gonna go searching for posts where people say GT5 is a system seller, but there are such posts believe me.

there is a reason why GT5 is £14.50 brand new and Forza 3 is £17.00

 

[Spagetti69]

Ok your right I'm wrong.

 

[Kinetic]

Ok your right I'm wrong.

I'm glad we came to such a non-sarcastic conclusion.

 

[TeamStig]

You mean when they said something along the lines of "upon release, FM3 will be the definitive console racer"? I don't know the exact words, but I've seen something very similar to that tossed around here a few times. I don't see what's wrong with that... not only was it technically true (it all depends on what their criteria is in deciding that)... but seriously, who wouldn't say that about their big, upcoming release? Who has ever gotten up for their presentation to tell the crowd "this game is entirely... adequate. Nothing more!"

Yes, people on an internet forum - who are free to say whatever they want - have probably said the same thing about GT5. But they aren't the creative director of the Forza franchise, are they?

Usually when you take a significant position in a company you show at least a little bit of grace, even towards your competition. Greenawalt didn't call FM3 "the definitive racing game of this generation" once - it was his entire E3 presentation. No, you don't get on the stage and call your game adequate, but you recognize what the rest of the players in the genre are doing (Codemasters, Polyphony, SIMBIN, EA, whoever) and you respectfully disagree. Whenever Kaz is asked about Forza, he doesn't bash Turn 10, and he doesn't go out of his way to negate what they're doing. The most he ever does is stress the sheer scope of his product - which is entirely accurate in the case of GT5 because it will be the largest console racing game ever released (that is not opinion).

Besides, the phrase "the definitive racing game of this generation" is so ambiguous and subjective that it can't be technically true.

 

[McLaren]

Why we don't talk about PD that way?It's oblivious.PD are gods.They don't think about money too much - they make their dreams alive - and money comes "by itself".It's a common rule.I mean they USE MONEY FOR PURPOSE, for their dream.Again.

This is another reason some of you GT fans aren't taken serious.

PD are gods? Really? And this doesn't scream, "I'm a fanboy & I'll never say a negative thing about PD"?

And I'm positive they use a good chunk of their money as profits just as much as any developer.

If GT lacks somewhat - it's only on features that GT do not have at all (damage,on-line), but features that already exist are TOP-NOTCH.(except on-line in GT5P)

So, the awful sound & damage are top notch, huh? Yeah, no. Codies has much better damage & a lot more games have much better audio. They kept the same tire sounds in GT for nearly 10 years.

Reverse on Forza.Forza itself grows up on features that GT don't have, because if the same feature exist in both games - GT will lead without a doubt.(except on-line in GT5P)

Again, proving what a ridiculous post this. If the games have the same feature, GT just automatically wins.

BTW - I'm trying to say that T10 CAN fix those things, but don't fix them because...they don't worry OR maybe holding up for FM4, to make even more money.Again T10 make it for money and ambitions, not because they dream t about that

(I'm not scaming T10 because of nothing, that is a summary of all what I see from what they say, and games THAT I BOUGHT)

Polyphony make GT about money just as much as the next developer. You're oblivious if you think PD just use all the money they make for GT.

 

[zepheadGT3]

When you take into account everything else PD is doing to advance the genre forward, the lack of interior views for 800 cars (800 cars which are still far and away more detailed than anything else you will see on the PS3) is only a minor inconvinience. Yes, it is more immersive - I'll agree with that. But you cannot expect them to model or up-res 1000 cars (even in the space of five years) and include an interior view with all of them. It's just too difficult.

I totally agree, which is why i dont think PD needs to have 20 different versions of skylines... only the regular and V-Spec versions. The same thing applies to almost all other japanese car brands, theres like 5 or 6 versions of the same model! I bet that they could narrow down the total car count to about 600 to 650 cars... okay, it would still take a long time to render interiors for 600+ cars, but i consider that a very important part of the game. Without the interior, the game looses that " driving simulator" feeling PD has proudly called Gran Turismo.

 

[II IVORBIGUN II]

Meh. On my main GT board (a small, tight-knit group of guys), many of them got rid of GT4 long ago, never bothered picking up GT5P, and all have FM3. And they all enjoy it. You can throw examples like that out for either side, it's pointless and proves nothing.







No way!

I see what your saying but you only have to look at the numbers on the leaderboards and online hoppers to see what im saying is correct. On FM3 some leaderboards have only 700 entries and yet on the same track on FM2 this number is over 200,0000. We then have the online hoppers and embarrasingly for Turn 10 these numbers are often below 1000. Finally here in the UK our Game stores are full of pre-owned copies of FM3.

Whatever the fanboys say on either side you only have to look at the Forza/Xbox forums to know FM3 has been a disappointment compared to FM2.

 

[JDMKING13]

I see what your saying but you only have to look at the numbers on the leaderboards and online hoppers to see what im saying is correct. On FM3 some leaderboards have only 700 entries and yet on the same track on FM2 this number is over 200,0000. We then have the online hoppers and embarrasingly for Turn 10 these numbers are often below 1000. Finally here in the UK our Game stores are full of pre-owned copies of FM3.

Whatever the fanboys say on either side you only have to look at the Forza/Xbox forums to know FM3 has been a disappointment compared to FM2.

👍 I hate those damn hoppers. I remember in Forza2 how you can always find a race online what was T10 thinking?

 

[II IVORBIGUN II]

This is another reason some of you GT fans aren't taken serious.

PD are gods? Really? And this doesn't scream, "I'm a fanboy & I'll never say a negative thing about PD"?

And I'm positive they use a good chunk of their money as profits just as much as any developer.


So, the awful sound & damage are top notch, huh? Yeah, no. Codies has much better damage & a lot more games have much better audio. They kept the same tire sounds in GT for nearly 10 years.

Again, proving what a ridiculous post this. If the games have the same feature, GT just automatically wins.

Polyphony make GT about money just as much as the next developer. You're oblivious if you think PD just use all the money they make for GT.

I think your missing the point he was making. Obviously PD make money out of GT but it isn't their main objective. The main objective for PD is to make a top quality racing game and of course by doing so they make alot of money. However this wasn't the case for Turn 10. For starters they ignored their main fanbase and changed FM3 to appeal to the casual racers because they thought this would increase sales. Also I wished they had spent more time fixing the bugs than releasing DLC.

Just an observation but would you defend Turn 10 as much as you do if they weren't from the USA? I have many friends from the US and one thing I notice about americans is they don't like to admit that another country can do something better. Lets be honest any country will struggle to compete against Japan for many reasons. The people of Japan are very clever, workholics, well educated. No coincidence that the very best always comes from Japan.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Just an observation but would you defend Turn 10 as much as you do if they weren't from the USA? I have many friends from the US and one thing I notice about americans is they don't like to admit that another country can do something better. Lets be honest any country will struggle to compete against Japan for many reasons. The people of Japan are very clever, workholics, well educated. No coincidence that the very best always comes from Japan.

Cool, we're now arguing using stereotypes as a foundation. Progress!

 

[II IVORBIGUN II]

Cool, we're now arguing using stereotypes as a foundation. Progress!

Just an observation but of course I also know americans who hate Turn 10. However the majority who defend Turn 10 are usually from the US.

Still I admit it was a rather silly post by me.

I noticed you didn't respond to my post about the leaderboards and the online hopper numbers!

 

[Spagetti69]

Would you say the Japanese are quiet, shy retiring types that like to stay out of the spotlight?

 

[Greycap]

Without the interior, the game looses that "driving simulator" feeling PD has proudly called Gran Turismo.

Is it possible to lose something that doesn't exist? Because if interior modelling makes the driving simulator feeling the feeling has never been there (give for GT5P) but on the other hand GT1-2-3-4 certainly had the feeling yet didn't have cockpits.

 

[Zer0]

Just an observation but of course I also know americans who hate Turn 10. However the majority who defend Turn 10 are usually from the US.

Same about the fact that US is the first market of Xbox. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[Akira AC]

yeah is more like a racial thing,"xbox is better because it breaks every time you pass six hours of playing but that is OK because its american made,pure american design"

 

[JDMKING13]

Is it possible to lose something that doesn't exist? Because if interior modelling makes the driving simulator feeling the feeling has never been there (give for GT5P) but on the other hand GT1-2-3-4 certainly had the feeling yet didn't have cockpits.

👍 I love cockpit view but the physics are what makes GT the best IMO.

 

[II IVORBIGUN II]

yeah is more like a racial thing,"xbox is better because it breaks every time you pass six hours of playing but that is OK because its american made,pure american design"

Never forget when my friends 360 packed up and he went to the supermarket to buy a new one. Upon returning home and plugging his 360 in he recieved RROD within 5mins!

Im currently on my 6th 360 in the space of 4yrs. When the cheap, plastic crap finally packs in I won't be purchasing another. My 360 days will be over once GT5 is released.

 

[Akira AC]

Never forget when my friends 360 packed up and he went to the supermarket to buy a new one. Upon returning home and plugging his 360 in he recieved RROD within 5mins!

Im currently on my 6th 360 in the space of 4yrs. When the cheap, plastic crap finally packs in I won't be purchasing another. My 360 days will be over once GT5 is released.

I finish them already and thank god I didn't get the RRD,I guess it was because I keep the thing cooling down each 2 hours of gaming,very annoying but at least it didn't broke, I still very amazed with god of war III,that game is superb, I still believe that is way better to play MW2 on xboxlive,but to be hones I really got hook by uncharted 2 and GOW III,and Forza 3 was a bit disappointing but a great game,now I looking forward for ps3,I don't like RPG very much but here in Japan is an insane amount of those things, I got 3 mates with ps3 and all of them with games like final fantasy or nine night warriors(or whatever the name is),and erotic games as well,no even COD4 or GTA 4,so I have to get those games by my own and go to Tokyo to get them, which is a waste of money but at least you can test new stuff there,either that is also what I am looking forward to play some GT,at least the Japanese public like that game a lot and I will finally get some decent racing to it,lets hope that the Japanese drivers be less like an ass on online racing.

 

[eSZee]

They actually did for a while there b/c they listened to the community unlike PD who ignored us until GT5 finally got around.

When I played FM3 they had a few fixes for the game. Not all were liked by the fans but some things had to be sacrificed in order to fix other things.
They, T10, think or know that fans just want more and more cars, which even this forum proves, so they release more cars and let the errors stay. New cars sort of keep the game fresh, error fixes, like dash and visual fixes, don't really do that IMO.

 

[Cobra_NZ]

Well dave_sz, I believe:

If public user lobbies was part of FM3 online mode. In fact if the FM2 online mode with more robust, streamlined and optimized code was kept.

If all the car model (and indeed the aero upgrades), errors were corrected as these were reported by the fan base of FM2 and FM3.

If all the cockpits were of similar quality and all had working instruments.

If there were backfire pops and flames.

If the PI system was engineered better.

If there were offline leader boards.

If DG, T10 and MS were honest about the LOD switch and that stupid sequence before every race was left out in the first place.

If the driver sitting, steering, gear changing and pulling handbrake animations were not so rubbish.

If the cockpit POV was adjustable like in TDU.

If T10 just spend more money and time on QC.

Well FM3 would have been a big success! But it wasn't. Hopefully lessons learned, we'll see...

EDIT: I forgot to mention the invisible pit crew and the fact that, in FM2, all the paint jobs, tunes and even decal groups can only be bought locked.

 

[TeamStig]

I totally agree, which is why i dont think PD needs to have 20 different versions of skylines... only the regular and V-Spec versions. The same thing applies to almost all other japanese car brands, theres like 5 or 6 versions of the same model! I bet that they could narrow down the total car count to about 600 to 650 cars... okay, it would still take a long time to render interiors for 600+ cars, but i consider that a very important part of the game. Without the interior, the game looses that " driving simulator" feeling PD has proudly called Gran Turismo.

Agreed, axing all of the models that don't need to be there would be a welcome change to GT. The good news is that with so many trims of the same car, just small tweaks need to be made to the interior of each one (replacing cloth with leather, different colors, thats sort of thing - but the overall layout of all the components stays the same).

 

[Devedander]

Is it possible to lose something that doesn't exist? Because if interior modelling makes the driving simulator feeling the feeling has never been there (give for GT5P) but on the other hand GT1-2-3-4 certainly had the feeling yet didn't have cockpits.

This is valid if you only consider the GT series and as you said ignore GT5P (which BTW to be honest I think really did a huge part for the "cockpit movement").

Once you go outside that world, cockpit view including working dials even sometimes have been around for quite a while:

One of my old favorites (track editor and driver look to apex were even in this one!)

 

[shadynader]

Lots of people, including me, played cockpit view long before GT was conceived too. It doesn't mean they, or I, didn't enjoy the first 4 installments now does it?