How should PD handle Career Mode in GT7
- Thread starter Alterlight
- 66 comments
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- 1,507
- Indonesia
I would like for events to have different level of performances to participate if they can (like drivetrains there, they aren't only about starting cars... they can be just more), but I'd rather if the events are displayed in 1 menu like GT2 (with ofc more than 3 events, GT Sport also had the events exceeding 3).
And probably by this GT can change how the events structured by not (only) using the difficulty level again (Beginner, Extreme,etc.), but players can sort events by other ways (multiple categories), such as car type (ex: Super GT, GT3, etc.), event type (ex: Drivetrain contest, etc.), etc.
- 1,713
- Sydney
- snakebacon97
For such a wide variety of cars, we'll definitely need a variety of events for each of them. All of them. Every car should have some race to do, and the VGTs have been bugging me on that point for years.
When the Mercedes-Benz AMG VGT Racing Series was first added to GT6, I wondered why it didn't have its own... racing series. None of the cars that followed received events, leaving them only as tools for hotlapping. Years later in Sport there were token mission races for the EF7 and the Copen RJ, and then the ridiculous GT League VGT and VGT+ events, with no attempt at racing or balance, besides separating them into Slower than Gr.1 and The Fast Half.
(image source: my 80 minute GT Sport review
)
When the Mercedes-Benz AMG VGT Racing Series was first added to GT6, I wondered why it didn't have its own... racing series. None of the cars that followed received events, leaving them only as tools for hotlapping. Years later in Sport there were token mission races for the EF7 and the Copen RJ, and then the ridiculous GT League VGT and VGT+ events, with no attempt at racing or balance, besides separating them into Slower than Gr.1 and The Fast Half.
(image source: my 80 minute GT Sport review
)Attachments
- 51,196
- Australia
- SpacedustDaddy
Well, to bring it up again, Kaz wanting all players to have that fresh GT experience veteran Players had in the past, it would make sense to have a deep Gran Turismo Mode/Simulation Mode. I do wonder how the separation of Sport Mode and GT Mode will work.
If Players don’t touch Simulation Mode, how will their Level up progress? I guess, pick a manufacturer from your two free cars and just start racing like GT Sport. Enter Nations and Manu with only those cars available. Receive your DWGs and hope you’ve accrued enough Cr. in time, to buy that Gr.1 car for the next Nations event.
If Players don’t touch Simulation Mode, how will their Level up progress? I guess, pick a manufacturer from your two free cars and just start racing like GT Sport. Enter Nations and Manu with only those cars available. Receive your DWGs and hope you’ve accrued enough Cr. in time, to buy that Gr.1 car for the next Nations event.
- 3,035
- Kingston, Jamaica
- pj-gm
- PJwasHere876
Well, to be fair, they are arguably 5/6 in terms of execution of their formula so far, and that's only if you want to be harsh on GT5's repetition of events for A and B Spec and its poor prize car selections.
How much of our opinion on GT Mode being an obsolete format is based on us being seasoned veterans of the series whos tastes have adjusted with age? Millions of people tuned in for each successive iteration for that very format and its mostly solid evolution over time, and each time there were millions more that were intorduced to it with each new game, too. You can see from that point of view, just why PD are still thinking evolution rather than a revolution to the CarPG format they pioneered in the first place.
Back to its waning appeal to long time fans, we are better drivers now, so GT's sub par AI is less of a competent but beatable challenge, and is more of a Minardi simulator. We are bigger fans of motorsport (maybe in large part thanks to playing GT as kids), so we want more realistic progression and challenges akin to what real drivers have, or at the very least some more diverse options for races. We want more cars and deeper customization, which they've already made pretty solid (albeit late) strides in that regard.
I think what I'm getting at in a nutshell is that GT Mode is every bit as Gran Turismo as any other key component of the game is, and shouldn't be seen as an outdated relic of the past, brought forward. Aspects of it that will make it stagnant, or repetitive, or boring can and should be changed, and they can be, without uprooting the entire foundation of the series. PD should improve the AI significantly, PD should provide in depth customization on both the exterior and mechanical side, they should improve sounds, they should lean further into competitive play, they should continue to expand the car roster in a more balanced way, they should better utilize and implement dynamic time/weather features. For many of these things they already are doing that, and the extent to which they do each will determine the quality of the experience and longevity, far more than trying to be something it's not.
- 1,778
- Florida, USA
With the career mode you need seasons, with a season there would be structured order from getting from beginning to end, future content cars/tracks would be added to new seasons, instead of being tacked on, they could be incorporated in a logical manner to progress through that season. Season wouldn't be locked, you could jump to other seasons.
- 51,196
- Australia
- SpacedustDaddy
Seasons and or tiers. Also, an end is optional. Maybe some players only want to race karts or rally cars as a career and never touch LMP. Players should have the option to continue in each discipline or move to faster cars or drop back to slower cars.
I’d love to just race my avatar in a Super Taikyu series… forever. Gr.4 may be my only option for a similar type series. Therefore, an in-depth or structured Career, for my chosen Gr.4 path, should be calculated for me.
I’d love to just race my avatar in a Super Taikyu series… forever. Gr.4 may be my only option for a similar type series. Therefore, an in-depth or structured Career, for my chosen Gr.4 path, should be calculated for me.
- 11,143
- Central Coast, NSW
- Com_Fox5
- EelX 5
Finishing GT mode has always been optional. The only forced requirement I can think of is GT4 restricting Extreme Events to having to beat the GT World Championship and GT6 restricting online to needing an A licence.
Aside from that you never were forced to buy an LMP and win the GT World Championship, that's only for the credits. If you wanted to stick to lesser events and have your dose on that, you can. If there's enough variety in events for Gr. 4 cars (instead of just dumping them in 1 series or multiple series that are the same just different Tracks) then that should be enough
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- 3,035
- Kingston, Jamaica
- pj-gm
- PJwasHere876
What you're saying sounds like an ultra-realistic progression of a racing driver, ending with specialization into their desired category of racing. We might as well go all the way, coupled with things like going back to school because your middle class family can't fund your career anymore, concussion protocol after a crash, and streaming on twitch between race weekends.
You could always race whatever series or events you like in GT, and ignore progression altogether. Perhaps what you want is more of a sandbox, to customize your experience to your liking, because uprooting the entire mode to be a hyper realistic race driver progression is just not what Gran Turismo has ever been about. It will probably be doomed on arrival if, instead of focusing on making gamers in love with cars and car fans in love with racing, it focused on just making racing fans happy and racing drivers feel represented.
I agree that GT isn't allowing you to tailor your experience to the class of racing you like the most, not only because of limited options for customizing events, but also because the car and track count is heavily biased toward certain categories. But the game is and has always been about giving you a taste and collaboration of all genres of racing, as opposed to the life of a racing driver itself. I don't think a massive shift in the entire framework is going to be well received at all.
- 51,196
- Australia
- SpacedustDaddy
I didn’t say anything about being forced. I’m responding in addition to the post above mine about a beginning to end of a season. I’ll go back to Forza. Once a tier was completed, the player could start again, but the races randomised again. Though the player had to start from Econo boxes and move up. An option to start from karts and stay in karts, while the races continue to randomise. So I can do the structured tier from beginnig to end with an option to keep going and never end.
- 16,325
- Melbourne
- ScottPuss20
- CheetahsMeow
- 11,143
- Central Coast, NSW
- Com_Fox5
- EelX 5
Yes but not impossible.
GT4 got it the closest. Events had a lot of variety and style to them to make them standout. The main issue was the grinding if you didn't know or were capable of getting the Zonda LM Race Car straight away. Repeating DTM over and over for cash was very tiresome.
That's why I think expanding and improving on GT4s is the way to go for career
- 13,887
- Adelaide
- Neomone
Yeah, but these are professional developers. This is literally their job, to come up with a game that is fun. That this is difficult is assumed, because if it was easy then everyone would have done it already. Expecting a game that is fantastically engaging long term for all players is probably unreasonable, but they can almost certainly do better with the engagement of the single player aspect than they have in the past.
Their previous solution was "more content", which was well received in 2004 with GT4 but not so much in 2013 with GT6. I think they're going to need to step it up for GT7, regardless of how hard a problem it might be. A giant list of races is going to go down like a ton of bricks.
If I remember, Project CARS 2 did something like this for it's career and it was pretty good. Of course, that game had all sorts of other issues but the career structure was quite nifty in both allowing for zero-to-hero journeys as well as complete freedom to race whatever you like as much as you like.
- 51,196
- Australia
- SpacedustDaddy
Yes. Looking at the Career screen now, players can choose a formula ford(formula rookie) type car, kart or Ginetta Junior. Also, an option to start in tiers 5, 4 and 3. So, if players want to skip entry level series, they can.
Mentioned above about Seasons and someone also mentioned Calendars. We have an option for Short(3 Dates) and Full(5 Dates)calendars.
PD can still utilise the Beginner, Professional, Endurance levels, but they can create good Careers by adding some of those Seasonal type events to virtual calendars. The same way we have races set up for FIA, the Career should be exactly that. It could allow players to return to those seasons as suggested above or never end with updates or algorithms, etc.
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- 1,507
- Indonesia
And you'd encourage them to stay still due to it being hard instead of making an effort to do that?
What "more content" in GT6 (career-wise)? GT6 had half of GT4's total number of events, as well as others feeling that the career is too short. Though I know that long doesn't mean good career (quality over quantity, and long can be achieved by padding or such), I do hope that developers won't cut game length due to the gamers now having little time to complete it. Though yeah like before, you don't need to be a "professional" to come up with good and creative ideas, just that the workers are the one that has the device to try work on it.
Like above I'd like for GT to not (only) structure events using the difficulty level again, but players can sort events by other ways (multiple categories), such as car type (ex: Super GT, GT3, etc.), event type (ex: Drivetrain contest, etc.), etc.
GT always had a calendar system and I do want for it to be evolved and expanded (it's mostly for Used Cars cycle), but I'd want for it to not change the game structure overall. What I'd do for the calendar system is to give only more advantage to the players, like browse, buy cars, repair, do other stuff, etc. when you for example Suspend Championship; and the calendar system's difference to previous game is primarily only about more and varied numbers of the days to be skipped (where iirc GT4 skips 1 day for most activities). Other advantage I would give is also pseudo-shortcuts via clicking the calendar on Status Window; clicking on any date when opening a calendar (and right away by clicking the date in Status Window), to advance the time into that day, or to jump into the next event right away without accessing the event menu.
Though I'd give an addition in season system (after a year ends, by random, some events stay the same, but some events undergo changes, be it in tracks, regulations, etc. Bringing back too GT2's random course-like system for this) or motorsport races (probably FIA yeah like you said) set on a fixed date. And also using B-Spec team management crew upgrade is done so there can be more activities to be done between the races (less days to take activities).
- 51,196
- Australia
- SpacedustDaddy
Certainly. If the Career were fictional Wednesdays & Saturdays or weekends only, incorporate that with the UCD or advancing days, what have you. I have no problems as what you’ve suggested.
It’s all about options for players(Samus is probably the biggest advocate for this). It can still be Sunday Cup, but options and a structure to change upon completion. Tahiti Maze, Trial Mountain and High Speed Ring can always Be the Beginner races. However, adjust difficulty, number of laps, same cars or same class cars or multi-class. If the conditions are fixed, once completed, randomise the conditions next time the player enters that event. Whatever.
It’s all about options for players(Samus is probably the biggest advocate for this). It can still be Sunday Cup, but options and a structure to change upon completion. Tahiti Maze, Trial Mountain and High Speed Ring can always Be the Beginner races. However, adjust difficulty, number of laps, same cars or same class cars or multi-class. If the conditions are fixed, once completed, randomise the conditions next time the player enters that event. Whatever.
- 105
- United Kingdom
- Jack-17AB
Whilst the ‘seasons’ concept would be good and add a different sense of realism to the game I’d prefer it to be separate to the standard GT league as I like to dip in and out of different series as I feel.
In GT7 I’d love to see the classics return like clubman cup, but also see more circuit variations added to events so there are 4-5 per series rather than 2-3 mostly as in GT6. More championships would be good too (using 25-1 points).
24minutes endurance events were a poor implementation in GT6 so for Le Mans for example if like to see 1, 4, 12, and 24h options.
That said, if there are custom races then the breadth of GT mode isn’t so crucial.
In GT7 I’d love to see the classics return like clubman cup, but also see more circuit variations added to events so there are 4-5 per series rather than 2-3 mostly as in GT6. More championships would be good too (using 25-1 points).
24minutes endurance events were a poor implementation in GT6 so for Le Mans for example if like to see 1, 4, 12, and 24h options.
That said, if there are custom races then the breadth of GT mode isn’t so crucial.
- 51,196
- Australia
- SpacedustDaddy
Career and Championships can co-exist.
An adjustment to endurance racing, can be an option.
session
PD need to use Career as introducing new players to specific disciplines in motorsports and offering options to veteran players.
Sunday Cup is pretty much a track day. The Track day should be more about respectful driving. Learn the basics of driving around a circuit with others.
One take could be, there’s No need to “win”. The reward should be Clean Race Bonus and Credits for completion. Not necessarily finishing P1->last placing. Some might just want to jump in and start racing Side by side. No problem with that. However, maybe start from the pit box and see if a player can better their previous time of the time set by AI during the two to three lap or whatever laps session.
Sunday Cup could have the option: “Race or Time Trial or Track Day”
An adjustment to endurance racing, can be an option.
session
PD need to use Career as introducing new players to specific disciplines in motorsports and offering options to veteran players.
Sunday Cup is pretty much a track day. The Track day should be more about respectful driving. Learn the basics of driving around a circuit with others.
One take could be, there’s No need to “win”. The reward should be Clean Race Bonus and Credits for completion. Not necessarily finishing P1->last placing. Some might just want to jump in and start racing Side by side. No problem with that. However, maybe start from the pit box and see if a player can better their previous time of the time set by AI during the two to three lap or whatever laps session.
Sunday Cup could have the option: “Race or Time Trial or Track Day”
- 1,507
- Indonesia
Well, I thought I'm too nostalgic if I'd want for the evolved calendar to not change GT's structure and mainly done to only giving advantages to players. Though many events have pre-set car class like Boxer Spirit...
The seasons are meant to be implemented into any events, so it's not about creating a different section for event, but evolving the existing ones; why keep the GT League intact, it's quite barebones (not having championship race is also one of the reason). But yeah 4-5 is what games like GT4 had and I'd not want for games to be minimized due to players not having time.... there are no limits on how long you complete a game. GT4 also had max. race of championship being 15 in Formula GT, also most big championship consist of 10 races.
So the Endurance events have minimum (still long) to maximum time limit with different prizes?
I don't know why people only bring up Sunday Cup constantly tbh, the Time Trial or Track Day option can be selected on Course Selection menu, for GT4 it's the one with From the East as one of the themes, and it's likely the GT World for GT7.
- 51,196
- Australia
- SpacedustDaddy
Those boxer spirit and Z car and M Power family races are fine. They can be kept. This is all about refining what they’ve done in the past to freshen it up.
Sunday Cup is ever present in the series. I think it’s also been the farming race in GTS. Just responding to the person that brought it up as an example.
If Sunday Cup is going to be a players first introduction to racing, even before they choose Arcade Practice/Time Trial, it could still be freshened up. It could still be use your first car and beat the AI. It could also be drive your first car and experience a non-competitive track day environment with other cars.
Then, it becomes, how are players rewarded?
Race:Gold/Silver/Bronze=TME Evo/GTI/S660 or whatever.
TT: Gold/Silver/Bronze=Mazda RX-V road car/Mazda MX-5 TC/Mazda MX-5 ND
Track Day: ZL1/Camaro SS/‘69 Camaro
If GT7 are going back to carousel rewards cars, we’ll see.
- 4,975
- Connecticut
- Ridley-X4
There are some events from prior GT games that may have quite a bit of overlap, but I think there are ways to make them stand out from each other if they were to somehow appear alongside each other. For example, I think the Italian Avant Garde event from GT3 could appear alongside La Festa Italiano, where the former could feature Italian Gr.3 cars, while the latter would feature road-going Italian cars.
I'm also really hoping for both manufacturer events like in GT4, but also events where the typical opponents are much more similar, if not the exact same as the eligible models you can enter. Then there's the idea of events that are simply fun ideas, like the 1000 Miles event from GT4.
Finally, there's another thing I wanted to mention: the idea of events using a time limit rather than lap count for duration. I know that there are some Endurance League events in GTS that use this format, but I was thinking there could be Professional and/or Extreme League events in GT7 that could do this, too, albeit with a lower time limit. Basically, you could take some of the half-hour endurances from GT6, and place them in GT7's Professional/Extreme League instead.
Ninja edit: I really miss actual championship events, too, where you don't have to win every race, but you can return to the races you didn't win for 100% completion. Plus there's the factor of actually doing them in sequence, too - one after another. Formula GT, anyone?
EDIT: Ultimately, I'd like the career mode to encourage players to use as wide of a variety of cars as possible, even if it means having multiple cars from the same class, automaker, country, or even with the same model name, like multiple models of Corvette. I, for one, would love a "Group C Championship" that makes you use the Group C cars within Gr.1, perhaps in the Extreme League.
EDIT2: I wonder what events have been seen in trailer footage so far? I think there was a French Hot Hatch event seen in the release date trailer, for one.
EDIT3: There also seem to be a "Euro Hot Hatch Week." Both this and the French Hot Hatch Challenge seem to have a PP limit of 300.
I'm also really hoping for both manufacturer events like in GT4, but also events where the typical opponents are much more similar, if not the exact same as the eligible models you can enter. Then there's the idea of events that are simply fun ideas, like the 1000 Miles event from GT4.
Finally, there's another thing I wanted to mention: the idea of events using a time limit rather than lap count for duration. I know that there are some Endurance League events in GTS that use this format, but I was thinking there could be Professional and/or Extreme League events in GT7 that could do this, too, albeit with a lower time limit. Basically, you could take some of the half-hour endurances from GT6, and place them in GT7's Professional/Extreme League instead.
Ninja edit: I really miss actual championship events, too, where you don't have to win every race, but you can return to the races you didn't win for 100% completion. Plus there's the factor of actually doing them in sequence, too - one after another. Formula GT, anyone?
EDIT: Ultimately, I'd like the career mode to encourage players to use as wide of a variety of cars as possible, even if it means having multiple cars from the same class, automaker, country, or even with the same model name, like multiple models of Corvette. I, for one, would love a "Group C Championship" that makes you use the Group C cars within Gr.1, perhaps in the Extreme League.
EDIT2: I wonder what events have been seen in trailer footage so far? I think there was a French Hot Hatch event seen in the release date trailer, for one.
EDIT3: There also seem to be a "Euro Hot Hatch Week." Both this and the French Hot Hatch Challenge seem to have a PP limit of 300.
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- 11,143
- Central Coast, NSW
- Com_Fox5
- EelX 5
One thing I do want to see in career is Mandatory Pit Stops for higher tier races.
They tried doing that in GT3 and GT4 with longer races and tyre wear but it can easily be exploited by just using Harder Tyres and never pitting.
I've seen GT Sport have races where you are required to use certain sets of tyres per race, forcing you into a pit stop. I'd love to see that for difficult Championshops in career, adding a layer of strategy
They tried doing that in GT3 and GT4 with longer races and tyre wear but it can easily be exploited by just using Harder Tyres and never pitting.
I've seen GT Sport have races where you are required to use certain sets of tyres per race, forcing you into a pit stop. I'd love to see that for difficult Championshops in career, adding a layer of strategy
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Just as long as they don't bring in the accelerated wear and fuel usage. I hated that in GTS, not that I raced online mind you. If the races aren't long enough for realistic tyre and fuel wear to matter, PD shouldn't use them, instead of having them wear down 9x faster than reality or something stupid.
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- 51,196
- Australia
- SpacedustDaddy
Which is why I’m hoping they were able to implement the collected track surface data.
That wet surface indicator, in the HUD, is an aid to show where optimum grip is on the track. A multiplier won’t be needed if certain tracks are more abrasive than others and at what time of day the ambient & track temperature comes into play.
That wet surface indicator, in the HUD, is an aid to show where optimum grip is on the track. A multiplier won’t be needed if certain tracks are more abrasive than others and at what time of day the ambient & track temperature comes into play.
- 11,143
- Central Coast, NSW
- Com_Fox5
- EelX 5
I don't mind that. Some races reach the middle ground where they are too long to be engaging and not long enough to require Pit Stops.
Imposing Mandatory Pits via the amount of what tyres required and having tyre wear increased for that to matter would add a lot of strategy to it.
Granted, they don't need to increase tyre wear for imposing Mandatory Pits but I wouldn't mind if they did that also, just so the strategy isn't exploited to be, use the hardest compound for 1 lap then Dash with the softer one
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Sure, 2x wear and fuel can be OK, maybe 3x at a push, but they took it to extreme levels in GTS with some of the events I saw. This IS still meant to be a simulator.
If people don't fancy longer races then they can do what many other devs do now, let people choose the race length themselves. 100% down to 10%, with prize money reduced to match of course.
That's what it's all about these days, choice. If people want to run through career mode with no races more than 5 laps and no wear, give them the option. If other people want their races to be 10 laps / 20 minutes minimum, up to several hours long, with fuel and tyre wear, let them as well.
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