How to install a better catalyst without technically breaking the law?

[White & Nerdy]

Due to the idiotic reverence with which catalytic converters are treated in U.S. law, it's apparently illegal to even temporarily remove (for replacement or to get it out of the way, apparently) one that isn't ruined. Which could get in the way of installing new headers and true dual exhaust, or just replacing an old, restrictive converter with a newer, freer-flowing version.

So, how do you legally get a stupid old converter to the point where it needs replacing, without ruining the rest of the car?

 

[Slash]

If the rest of the exhaust needs replacing, then you can replace it with a system that is designed to replace an OEM cat. Usually most are OEM replacements and legal, otherwise they wouldn't be selling them.

If the car is older than 1996, you don't need one, period. All the car requires at that point is a safety inspection.

 

[White & Nerdy]

I thought that wasn't the case though. I figured I read somewhere that, if a car came with emissions equipment, it had to have it forever, no matter how old it is.

If what you're saying is true though, I'm in the clear.

 

[Slash]

I thought that wasn't the case though. I figured I read somewhere that, if a car came with emissions equipment, it had to have it forever, no matter how old it is.

If what you're saying is true though, I'm in the clear.

My truck is a 1985. The engine was originally an emissions legal, ECU controlled, carbureted 4.9L Inline 6. All of that junk has been removed. The engine has been changed 3 times. I do have cats and mufflers on it now with a V8, but just because of the circumstances at the time the exhaust system was put on (a misunderstanding basically). That's besides the point. It's older than 1996 and is/was an ODBI vehicle. All smog, emissions and everything else junk wise has been removed, in fact it was removed before that law was even made.

Anything after '96, it has to remain. For example, you can't install an engine either older than the model year, or one other than one offered stock in said vehicle, because it has to meet the emissions of that engine stock, since it was an available factory option.

Basically, if the car is older the '96, you can do whatever the hell you want to it as long as it passes a state safety inspection.

 

[White & Nerdy]

So Hot Rod magazine's LS7 swapped Camaro was technically illegal? Also, if you accidentally ruined the engine in, say, a 1999 Cavalier, you couldn't put in an identical engine from a 1998 Cavalier because it's technically older?

 

[Slash]

So Hot Rod magazine's LS7 swapped Camaro was technically illegal? Also, if you accidentally ruined the engine in, say, a 1999 Cavalier, you couldn't put in an identical engine from a 1998 Cavalier because it's technically older?

Possibly, depending on the year of the engine and Camaro. You can technically do anything you want to a car, but wether its street legal or not is a totally different story. I want to put a smog 400M V8 in an '05 V6 Mustang. 100% not street legal.

You could put one in it as long as the generations are the same and huge advancements haven't been made that drastically change the engine. 99% of the time, no one is going to even notice if it's one year older, so if you did it yourself and took it to get inspected, it would likely pass as long as its mated with the ECU perfectly.

 

[White & Nerdy]

It was a 5th gen and was, as far as I know, a brand new car when the swap was made, and the engine was probably from a brand new Corvette. Very similar engine (both LS series), so it might have still been legal. But what does that mean for aftermarket LS engines with no donor car?

Also, does that mean you can't use a complete aftermarket ECU setup in a post-1996 car?

Emissions law splits more hairs than my job as a stocker, and needs to be radically simplified, preferably in a modification-freindly direction.

 

[Slash]

It was a 5th gen and was, as far as I know, a brand new car when the swap was made, and the engine was probably from a brand new Corvette. Very similar engine (both LS series), so it might have still been legal. But what does that mean for aftermarket LS engines with no donor car?

Everything I'm telling you is coming from my experience as a vehicle safety and emissions inspector for New York.

If it matches the factory ECU, or can be paired with it or use another ECU that is 50 state legal, it may be legal for street use. It is a very fine and touchy subject with a lot of gray area where it tends to lean depending the shop you go to. If the ECU isn't ODBII and the computer can't read it, it will immediately fail.

Also, does that mean you can't use a complete aftermarket ECU setup in a post-1996 car?

No, as long as the ECU meets federal standards. Most will tell you what state it is legal in. Same as a lot of aftermarket engine parts such as ignition and carbs. The MSD ignition system I have has a panel in the inner fender that says what system my vehicle is equipped with and that it's legal in all 50 states. When you buy, the box or ad should specify.

Emissions law splits more hairs than my job as a stocker, and needs to be radically simplified, preferably in a modification-freindly direction.

It can be quite hairy. Even I'm not 100% on everything....there is a lot of gray area.


Here's is NY's laws...they are some of the strictest besides CA...so you should be clear on something like this.

Ince the vehicles age surpasses 26, at least in NY, you can do what you want. Other states the 1996 law applies. This is kinda of why our truck has cats ATM. Just to shut them up.

The Emissions Inspection - Drive New York Clean

The 1990 Federal Clean Air Act requires New York State to conduct an inspection program to help reduce harmful emissions from most gasoline-powered passenger cars and light-duty trucks. The emissions inspection is done at the same time as the annual safety inspection. Vehicles that fail the emissions inspection may not be able to become registered or, if already registered, the registration may not be renewed.

Registration Based Enforcement (RBE)

Inspection records are transmitted electronically to DMV from the inspection stations. Vehicles subject to emissions inspection must have a valid inspection record on file with DMV before a registration may be renewed. Registration renewal invitations mailed to motorists contain a warning message if there is no record of a valid inspection on file for the vehicle when the invitation is issued. If the vehicle has passed inspection but DMV does not have the record, the motorist may bring the inspection receipt issued by the inspection station as proof of passing the inspection, if renewing in a DMV office; if renewing by mail, a copy of this receipt may be included as proof of inspection.

Some vehicles are exempt from the emissions inspection program. Your passenger car or light truck does not have to be inspected for emissions if it is:

• Less than two model years old;
• 26 model years old or older;
• Registered with historical plates; or,
• Electric-powered only.

Most vehicles with diesel engines are also exempt. However, diesel-powered vehicles that are registered at more than 8,500 lbs. and are registered in the New York Metropolitan Area (NYMA) counties of Nassau, Suffolk, Rockland, Westchester, or one of the five counties within New York City, are subject to annual emissions inspection. All diesel-powered vehicles over 8,500 lbs. maximum gross weight (MGW) operated in New York State, even if registered elsewhere, are subject to roadside inspections. These safety and equipment inspections are conducted randomly statewide by the New York State Police and the New York State Department of Transportation.

On-Board Diagnostics - Version II (OBDII) Inspection. The emissions inspection for vehicles registered anywhere in New York State includes an "OBDII" (on-board diagnostics) test for vehicles that weigh 8,500 lbs. or less, and are model year 1996 or newer. Part of this test examines the Malfunction Indicator Lamp (MIL), also known as the "check engine" light, for operation/illumination, and verifies the test results of the vehicle's "on-board emissions diagnostic" system.

Low Enhanced Inspection. A "Low Enhanced" emissions inspection is required for most other vehicles, unless they are subject to the OBDII test or are exempt from all emissions inspections. This inspection is required for all vehicles from and including model year 1995 and older, through and including vehicles that are up to 25 model years old, and that weigh 18,000 lbs. or less.

What the Emissions Inspection Includes

Each emissions inspection confirms the presence and connection of the vehicle's required emissions control devices. This includes making sure that the vehicle's gas cap is present, is in good condition, and fits properly.

The emissions control devices are examined if the vehicle was originally manufactured with them. The vehicle model years affected are indicated below.

• Catalytic converter (CAT) - all model years
• Exhaust gas recirculation valve (EGR) - all model years
• Positive crankcase ventilation system (PCV) - all model years
• Air injection system (AIS) - 1984 and newer
• Evaporative emissions control (EVAP) - 1984 and newer
• Fuel inlet restrictor (FIR) - 1984 and newer
• Thermostatic air cleaner (TAC) - 1984 and newer

You can help your vehicle pass an emissions inspection by keeping it properly maintained. If the vehicle's Malfunction Indicator Lamp (MIL, or "check engine" light) indicates there may be a malfunction or other problem, have the vehicle properly repaired. A well maintained, properly functioning vehicle uses less fuel and creates less exhaust emissions.

http://www.dmv.ny.gov/broch/c-50.htm

 

[High-Test]

It all depends on what state one lives in. Most of the midwest doesn't give a damn about smog testing. So for us yahoos in Kansas, the sky's the limit. I could run a catless downpipe on my outback if I wanted to, but then I'd risk overboost. And even a catted performance downpipe won't pass emissions testing.

California was Hot-rodding's amniotic fluid, and CARB killed it all with a simple injection of saline solution.

 

[Badasp5.0]

It all depends on what state one lives in. Most of the midwest doesn't give a damn about smog testing. So for us yahoos in Kansas, the sky's the limit. I could run a catless downpipe on my outback if I wanted to, but then I'd risk overboost. And even a catted performance downpipe won't pass emissions testing.

California was Hot-rodding's amniotic fluid, and CARB killed it all with a simple injection of saline solution.

Same here out west. NM only has emissions testing in one county and no safety inspection. With that being said I have passed the sniffer with a non legal cam and dissconnected air pump on a '95.

 

[McLaren]

If the rest of the exhaust needs replacing, then you can replace it with a system that is designed to replace an OEM cat. Usually most are OEM replacements and legal, otherwise they wouldn't be selling them.

If the car is older than 1996, you don't need one, period. All the car requires at that point is a safety inspection.

This isn't true & we've been over this before.

Most replacement cats are labeled as "Off Road Use Only" because it is illegal to mess with a catalytic converter in any way unless it will be replaced with one that passes the guidelines set in place; most replacements do not pass all of them.

The answer to the OP's question is in the previous thread as was the link detailing the rules set in place by the govt. It is not illegal to remove if there is a legitimate reason to do so or if it will be replaced with a cat that meets the aforementioned EPA guidelines.

 

[savage388]

This isn't true & we've been over this before.

Most replacement cats are labeled as "Off Road Use Only" because it is illegal to mess with a catalytic converter in any way unless it will be replaced with one that passes the guidelines set in place; most replacements do not pass all of them.

The answer to the OP's question is in the previous thread as was the link detailing the rules set in place by the govt. It is not illegal to remove if there is a legitimate reason to do so or if it will be replaced with a cat that meets the aforementioned EPA guidelines.

The only way to do it legally is to get magnaflow cat or similar that is 50 state legal. Most of the time there isn't an issue getting it replaced, the exhaust shop makes good money scrapping them. As far as not having one, it's all state dependent so become familiar with your local law as even most mechanics that inspect the car won't be on this subject.

 

[McLaren]

The only way to do it legally is to get magnaflow cat or similar that is 50 state legal. Most of the time there isn't an issue getting it replaced, the exhaust shop makes good money scrapping them. As far as not having one, it's all state dependent so become familiar with your local law as even most mechanics that inspect the car won't be on this subject.

Replacing them is not the issue. It's what you're replacing it with that meets EPA requirements. A lot of shops will not touch converters unless it needs to be replaced or you have something that meets the EPA.

As far as having one, no, that's not state dependent. Up to a certain model year, every vehicle has been sold with one by manufacturers in the US & it is a federal offense to remove it unless the reason meets the EPA rules for doing so. What's state dependent is the testing & you're right, most mechanics won't know enough to go looking for it unless they're required to or have a test that relies on needing a cat to pass.

But, the OP is asking about removing it in the first place & most shops will not touch it because of the fine that comes with it. The best way to do it is to find a high performance shop/tuner & ask. Those shops usually have clauses that state the cars they build are intended for "off-roading" by the owner & are not responsible beyond that.

 

[savage388]

Replacing them is not the issue. It's what you're replacing it with that meets EPA requirements. A lot of shops will not touch converters unless it needs to be replaced or you have something that meets the EPA.

As far as having one, no, that's not state dependent. Up to a certain model year, every vehicle has been sold with one by manufacturers in the US & it is a federal offense to remove it unless the reason meets the EPA rules for doing so. What's state dependent is the testing & you're right, most mechanics won't know enough to go looking for it unless they're required to or have a test that relies on needing a cat to pass.

But, the OP is asking about removing it in the first place & most shops will not touch it because of the fine that comes with it. The best way to do it is to find a high performance shop/tuner & ask. Those shops usually have clauses that state the cars they build are intended for "off-roading" by the owner & are not responsible beyond that.

I agree with that last part completely, ops best bet would to be to find a shop that does performance stuff, they can get around all of it by saying the cat is clogged up and replace it with a high performance alternative.

 

[McLaren]

I agree with that last part completely, ops best bet would to be to find a shop that does performance stuff, they can get around all of it by saying the cat is clogged up and replace it with a high performance alternative.

They usually don't go that far. They just have you sign a contract stating they are not responsible for any & all modifications and/or damages that may or may not occur to your car as a result of said mods being installed. Build kits are usually the exceptions since they provide the parts themselves instead of you bringing/ordering a specific part of them.

 

[savage388]

They usually don't go that far. They just have you sign a contract stating they are not responsible for any & all modifications and/or damages that may or may not occur to your car as a result of said mods being installed. Build kits are usually the exceptions since they provide the parts themselves instead of you bringing/ordering a specific part of them.

It seems easy enough then, op would just have to pass inspection then which shouldnt be a problem.
By what do you mean build kits? Are you talking about full exhaust systems?

 

[McLaren]

It seems easy enough then, op would just have to pass inspection then which shouldnt be a problem.
By what do you mean build kits? Are you talking about full exhaust systems?

It depends on what kind of emissions testing Alaska does, though I imagine it's easy enough to pass given the nature of the state compared to other parts of the US.

I'm talking about kits the tuner has assembled & tuned themselves such as Jotech's Stages (http://jotechracing.com/products/packages/nissan-packages/gt-r-packages/jotech-gt-r-packages/) or Underground's stages.

 

[savage388]

It depends on what kind of emissions testing Alaska does, though I imagine it's easy enough to pass given the nature of the state compared to other parts of the US.

I'm talking about kits the tuner has assembled & tuned themselves such as Jotech's Stages (http://jotechracing.com/products/packages/nissan-packages/gt-r-packages/jotech-gt-r-packages/) or Underground's stages.

Oh, I forget kits like that exist outside video games sometimes, when I think of work I just think of idividual mods.

 

[White & Nerdy]

Now that Anchorage has discontinued its I/M program, there is no emissions testing anywhere in the state.

I'm just worried about keeping to the letter of the law as I attempt to get the restrictive 1993 catalyst out of the way. I don't want to end up with a felony on my record (which using a non-Prius-driver-approved catalyst is, due to the idiotic reverence with which catalytic converters are treated) because then you can't ever vote again and whatnot. I know a lot of you probably think that would be a good thing, since I won't automatically vote for the most socially liberal candidate, but still.

 

[Slash]

Having been in several shops I've never seen any of the activities discussed taken place. They simply replace them. No contracts waivers or anything. It's like the rest of the system.



@white&nerdy

I don't think you'll have much issue. It's not like people walk around checking underneath your car for a legal cat. A long as you have one at all you are probably fine.


@McLaren

Some are yes, but are you going to tell me my Jegs catalog is lying to me?

 

[Rotary Junkie]

Prior to 1996, no code for a gutted cat. After 96, gutted or removed cats will throw codes.

Otherwise there's no distinction. It's still federally illegal to remove a cat either way.

However, if you don't have an e-test in your state and you don't let shops touch your car, you won't get caught.

 

[Third Reign]

@white&nerdy

I don't think you'll have much issue. It's not like people walk around checking underneath your car for a legal cat. A long as you have one at all you are probably fine.

The problem starts to arise when you get into an accident. Even if the incident was not your fault, insurance companies may refuse to pay for repairs if the vehicle is not in its "insured state".

 

[Slash]

The problem starts to arise when you get into an accident. Even if the incident was not your fault, insurance companies may refuse to pay for repairs if the vehicle is not in its "insured state".

Who's going to know? It won't throw codes otherwise.

 

[Adamgp]

I replaced the one on my Grand Prix without trouble. The car was able to pass the Illinois fart test year after year, no problem.

Then again I've seen cat-less Grand Prix's pass the fart test.

I don't think you should have issues.