Hurricane Katrina; Is the U.S. responding fast enough?

[ledhed]

Arwin when are you going to get it in your head that local and state government s are in charge of their territory and NOT the federal government . They can ask for federal assistance but for the most part the federal government cant and should not have to administer there area ! If New Orleans has a troulble with dikes then its up to NO and the state to do what they have to do ! If they cant get 100 % funding from FEMA or whatever other program than they have to do it through the state . The federal budget was changed because ...guess what ..9 / 11 happened ! duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh .....billions of dollars that would have been available for other crap like dikes is now going for anti terrorist crap .
Its up to the state to make up for what they cant get for free from the federal government .
You really need to get a clue how the government works in the US .
Bush is just a President . He cant make any laws , he can make few moves without congress ... look it up. President not dictator for life ...not even for four years .

Listen, ledhed, there were many screwups, but the one for preventing the flooding of NO falls squarely under the Bush administration.

This ^^^ statement on its face is utter bull**** .

 

[Arwin]

Arwin when are you going to get it in your head that local and state government s are in charge of their territory and NOT the federal government . They can ask for federal assistance but for the most part the federal government cant and should not have to administer there area ! If New Orleans has a troulble with dikes then its up to NO and the state to do what they have to do ! If they cant get 100 % funding from FEMA or whatever other program than they have to do it through the state . The federal budget was changed because ...guess what ..9 / 11 happened ! duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh .....billions of dollars that would have been available for other crap like dikes is now going for anti terrorist crap.
Its up to the state to make up for what they cant get for free from the federal government .
You really need to get a clue how the government works in the US .
Bush is just a President . He cant make any laws , he can make few moves without congress ... look it up. President not dictator for life ...not even for four years .

Sorry led, but by this time, I think I know a lot more about how your country works than you. Now although many people in positions to do something have screwed up, FEMA was created to take charge in natural disasters of this scope. Stuff like levees aren't handled on a local level because the budgets for such activities simply don't come from the State - large scale projects such as that almost never do. It makes a lot of sense, if you realise that local infrastructure is often the first to collapse, so you can't count on local government to even function.

Combinations of cutting funds and a failed attempt to integrate FEMA into the DoHS have crippled FEMA and left it incapable of doing its job properly, with lots of capable people leaving FEMA completely demotivated by incompetent leadership, inefficiency and burocracy.

Yes, Bush is just a president, but he and his party own congress. And he is, in fact, also directly responsible:

Overall Coordination of Federal Incident Management Activities

The President leads the Nation in responding effectively and ensuring the necessary resources are applied quickly and efficiently to all Incidents of National Significance. As necessary, the Assistant to the President for Homeland Security convenes interagency meetings to coordinate policy issues. Though White House-level coordination mechanisms are not described in detail in the NRP, all other Federal coordinating mechanisms and entities described in the NRP support, and are consistent with, White House-level interagency coordination.

During actual or potential Incidents of National Significance, the overall coordination of Federal incident management activities is executed through the Secretary of Homeland Security. Other Federal departments and agencies carry out their incident management and emergency response authorities and responsibilities within this overarching coordinating framework.

The Secretary of Homeland Security utilizes multiagency structures at the headquarters, regional, and field levels to coordinate efforts and provide appropriate support to the incident command structure. At the Federal headquarters level, incident information-sharing, operational planning, and deployment of Federal resources are coordinated by the Homeland Security Operations Center (HSOC), and its component element, the NRCC.

Anyway, like I said, there will be many out there who could have done a better job. But cutting the budget on activities that could have prevented this from happening and crippling a well-functioning agency because every bit of attention had to be shifted to terrorism, well, it's a very bad and costly mistake, especially since the disaster in New Orleans was so often predicted, analysed, etc. People knew the risks, and still budgets were cut!

 

[Arwin]

Regarding the lack of FEDERAL funding for the NEW ORLEANS levee.

1) I don't want my federal government funding New Orleans' levee. That's pork.

But I already know you have zero understanding of such matters. I already know that you question the very basis of civilisation, and instead firmly believe in every man for himself. The mere fact that you take part in something like an internet community like GTPlanet amazes me enough as it is - rue the day that you'd actually get that NO is of nationwide importance and that monumental infrastructure projects like that are best funded nationally because they outstrip the capacities and budgets of local government. It's like saying that fighting terrrorism should be done by the individual states on their own, or even better, cities, or even better, each individual for himself. Ok, so you're probably going to want a Bill Gates in your area who may have the funds to keep maybe one or two battleships up and running, but in a sufficiently each-man-for-himself society, there will be plenty of uber-rich with their own private armies anyway.

2) The proposed project that Bush cut WOULD NOT have stopped the levee from breaking (as per one of the engineers invovled with the project).

We're not talking about proposed projects, but about running projects. There's not just one thing that would have prevented each of the three levees from braking. I gave the example of the first levee that broke, work on which would have been completed a month before Katrina hit had it not been scrapped. Each and every levee that was completed work on under this last project still stands.

3) Any opportunity to blame Bush

Every opportunity not to take any responsibility. You probably think that I, here in the Netherlands, the land of levee experts, the land that has suffered a big levee breach in 1956, and where millions live under sea level like parts of New Orleans, with no vote in American politics, and experiencing little effect from U.S. domestic policy (other than perhaps high gas-prices but the fact that we still depend on gas is our own fault also), care about finding reasons to blame Bush. As if I have nothing better to do.

All I care about is finding out what went wrong where, to learn about this for the future. The thing is, you just don't hear me criticise anything else, because parts of that criticism concerns stuff that happens in my own area (Europe, the Netherlands) that you don't have an inkling of interest in, and parts because all you care about is your own petty philosophy of each man for himself so you'll be interested only in stuff that concerns you anyway.

The relief effort is first and foremost the obligation of the city officials - who immediately gave up and pointed the finger at everyone else for not helping. The next obligation is to the state government, who also very quickly gave up.

Stop there for a second. The city AND state were completely and totally unprepared for this natural disaster which EVERYONE (seriously, everyone) knew was a potential thread and has been since the city was il-created. Why were they unprepared? Because to be prepared would have meant funding the preparation. It would have meant actually taxing the people of Louisiana and (even more so) new orleans to actually (GASP) take care of themeslves.

Yeah. A state that economically is a mere blip on the radar, forming 1% of the economy, but is at the same time responsible for 20% of the U.S. energy supply. It is (apparently) well known that New Orleans is the crime capital of the U.S., and that there is a lot of corruption going on. There will be a lot of blame to be handed out to that city I am sure (the schoolbusses issue bothers me, as does the fact that trains, busservices and airports were allowed to stop running so soon).

But the levees and the handling of the disaster once Katrina struck was federal responsibility. I mean, even Fox News realised this. Get a grip.

By the way, I was wondering yesterday, couldn't they use military sattelites to take pictures of New Orleans and noticed the thousands of people near the convention center? The weather certainly was good enough the days after the storm, and these sattelites are obviously good enough - even the Google Earth map shows enough detail, and that stuff is usually behind military grade equipment by 5-10 years.

Does the north east scream for federal funding every time a blizzard strikes or are they prepared? Is the west coast prepared for earthquakes - you bet.

Yes, because San Francisco was also destroyed once, so they've learnt their lessons the hard way. You might want to read up on how that was handled and what effects that had on politics.

Now, since the Louisiana government was SO pathetic and SO negligent in their duties. The federal government should have stepped in with aid faster, and to a certain extent they tried. The tried to get aid in and were shot at by the MORONS on the ground. So they pulled the aid back and sent in troops. That they sent in troops as quickly as they did is actually impressive in my eyes, because I would never have expected that we'd actually need to INVADE one of our own cities due to flooding.

They were hampered (guns are great aren't they? good thing they are so accessible you can even buy them at wall-mart) but they were far to late anyway.

In this process though, the federal government was negligent in one regard - they could have air dropped food and water to the people at the superdome from aircraft and not have risked being shot at. They did not.

Is that Bush's fault? Only if you blame him for appointing the wrong guy to head up the branches of government who are actually directly responsible for this. The majority of the blame lies with FEMA and other government branches that should have stepped in faster and with a more organized response.

FEMA was integrated by his order into the DoHS, a department of his creation. Yes, he did appoint the airheads at FEMA, parking an old friend of his there, who in turn parked one of his own friends there.

Bottom line: Government is inherently slow and expensive.

To quote you, I call BS. If that were true, the U.S. Army should suck too. But it doesn't. It was ready (for instance, the hospital ship lying off the coast that had sailed in right behind Katrina), but the order never came.

FEMA was one of the leanest and meanest machines before Bush decided to cripple it.

Government is not inherently slow and expensive. But it can be when managed poorly. And that is what I think has happened.

The anarchy of the streets is the extreme on your side of the scale, Danoff. The law of the street, the survival of the fittest, that's your ideology playing out right there, as soon as government falls away.

 

[ledhed]

Explain to me how a levy is a natural disaster . Also I think congress would be very surprised to learn that they have been owned . And you are just dead wrong .."stuff" like levys are without a doubt handled at a local/state level with federal assistance when neccessary Do you think the people and the government of New Orleans and the State government would have sat back if they thought they were getting a crappy dike job ? if the FEDERAL government was responsibile for it ? Bwaaaahahahahahaha...sorry but you crack me up ... People seem to think federal means " for free " No state willigly gives up its sovereignty willingly..EVER . When you talk about dikes alongside the Mississippi river that are interstate in nature then you have the feds invoved , the same with interstate highways , but the STATE always take precedent . Again Arwin ..you really should learn about the US governmet..start with the fact that its called the UNITED STATES .
FEMA was CRIPPLED ?????? bwaaaaaaahahahahahahahaahaha FEMA managed the recue of hundreds of thousands of people and is providing aid to all of the displaced people from the storm.....FEMA is far from crippled . At the onset the scope and scale of the damage almost overwhelmed it . Arwin do you have any idea of the scope of what happened ? Or the scope of the rescue effort ? There are things that google wont help you with ..you just ' think" you know whats going on .

There were hundres of thousands of people displaced and in need of rescue ..underwater and hanging off trees ..on top of houses etc. etc. etc. there are a finite number of helicopters to rescue people with ...wich person do want to die because their rescue hellicopter was diverted to New Orleans to drop stuff ?
The city should have stocked food and water at the places they wanted the people to go... THEY HAD PLENTY OF WARNING. New Orleans is the crime capital ? ...cripes ...were do you get this stuff ? At any raye as the emergency personel said to respond to the critics of New Orleans convention center and the Dome ..." our first priority was to rescue the people whose houses were under water , our first priority is to save lives "

 

[Arwin]

At the onset the scope and scale of the damage almost overwhelmed it . Arwin do you have any idea of the scope of what happened ? Or the scope of the rescue effort ? There are things that google wont help you with ..you just ' think" you know whats going on .

Sorry but unless you're in New Orleans yourself, I am pretty sure I know at least as much or more than you do. I have all the major news channels (of which, surprise surprise, I've actually been watching Fox News the most), I read a lot of newspapers, and I discuss online with people from the U.S. and even from and with relatives in the region.

What did you do to keep yourself informed?

 

[ledhed]

I talk to my relatives from New Orleans..they happen to be at my sister in laws house ..might be there for a while . And Miami Florida and Jaksonville and My Brother that lives in Alabama . Along with the fact that you cant turn on a friggin TV without seeing something of whats going on ...and they also have news papers here ...suprise suprise ..of course I also live here...there is that I suppose
but its not time yet for my yearly visit to the area ..its too damm hot, I usually go down in the winter..every ....year...for ...the ...last ...ten...years......
I might have to down sooner to put a roof back on my brothers house ...unless the feds do it .

 

[Arwin]

I talk to my relatives from New Orleans..they happen to be at my sister in laws house ..might be there for a while . And Miami Florida and Jaksonville and My Brother that lives in Alabama . Along with the fact that you cant turn on a friggin TV without seeing something of whats going on ...and they also have news papers here ...suprise suprise ..of course I also live here...there is that I suppose
but its not time yet for my yearly visit to the area ..its too damm hot, I usually go down in the winter..every ....year...for ...the ...last ...ten...years......
I might have to down sooner to put a roof back on my brothers house ...unless the feds do it .

Good to hear your family made it out ok.

Anyway, I hope you understand that I don't really feel I am underqualified in the information department. And how much do you know about FEMA and the DoHS anyway?

 

[FoolKiller]

Ledhed, glad to hear your family made it out OK.

Arwin, you seem to have a misunderstanding that President Bush can just order National Guard troops to go march on any American city he wishes. Before he can do that the governor of teh state must declare a federal emergency and request federal aid which Governor Blanco did not do for days after Katrina hit.

Now, from where I sit in my dry home and office it appears that FEMA screwed up but in reality I was not there to see what happened and neither were you. All I can see is what is on TV and no matter what the channel you are watching is that will not tell you what happened, why it happened, or how it happened.

For all we know they were doing the best they possibly could given the circumstances and were performing at the same, or higher, level they always do but a disaster of this nature made it seem much worse.

In all reality we do not know. Not you, and not I. No one will until their is a full investigation, which President Bush has already ordered, and all the facts are discovered. You could be 100% right or 100% wrong or it could be somewhere in the middle. Right now, no one knows. If there is blame to be made and the recovery efforts are found to have been severly mismanaged then the blame goes from teh mayor of New Orleans all the way up to the president. No one man can be blamed for any of this.

If President Bush and the Republicans are to be blamed because of lack of funding to the levees then every president and every memeber of Congress for the last 30 years should be blamed because that is how long the federal government has been denying them those funds.

As for New Orleans being the crime capital of the US, WTF? The violent crime rate in Detroit is nearly twice what New Orleans' is and the property crime rate is nearly 25% higher than New Orleans'.

 

[Danoff]

But I already know you have zero understanding of such matters. I already know that you question the very basis of civilisation, and instead firmly believe in every man for himself. The mere fact that you take part in something like an internet community like GTPlanet amazes me enough as it is - rue the day that you'd actually get that NO is of nationwide importance and that monumental infrastructure projects like that are best funded nationally because they outstrip the capacities and budgets of local government. It's like saying that fighting terrrorism should be done by the individual states on their own, or even better, cities, or even better, each individual for himself. Ok, so you're probably going to want a Bill Gates in your area who may have the funds to keep maybe one or two battleships up and running, but in a sufficiently each-man-for-himself society, there will be plenty of uber-rich with their own private armies anyway.

Give me a break. This is so sad. It's almost as though you didn't read my post - even worse is your attempt at undermining my credibility to refute my argument. That's one of those famous logical fallacies. You do not seem to have a grasp of my philosophy, so don't try to claim otherwise.

We're not talking about proposed projects, but about running projects. There's not just one thing that would have prevented each of the three levees from braking. I gave the example of the first levee that broke, work on which would have been completed a month before Katrina hit had it not been scrapped. Each and every levee that was completed work on under this last project still stands.

Bottom line - the head engineer on the project you refer to where federal funding was cut is on the record saying that it would not have helped.

Every opportunity not to take any responsibility. You probably think that I, here in the Netherlands, the land of levee experts, the land that has suffered a big levee breach in 1956, and where millions live under sea level like parts of New Orleans, with no vote in American politics, and experiencing little effect from U.S. domestic policy (other than perhaps high gas-prices but the fact that we still depend on gas is our own fault also), care about finding reasons to blame Bush. As if I have nothing better to do.

You enjoy bashing Bush. I don't know why.

I'm not the one who has any responsibility to take here. So are you trying to say that I use every opportunity to try to alleviate the president of responsibility? Because that simply isn't so. Our president has screwed a number of things up - just not what you've been claiming.

All I care about is finding out what went wrong where, to learn about this for the future. The thing is, you just don't hear me criticise anything else, because parts of that criticism concerns stuff that happens in my own area (Europe, the Netherlands) that you don't have an inkling of interest in, and parts because all you care about is your own petty philosophy of each man for himself so you'll be interested only in stuff that concerns you anyway.

Why should I not be interested in things that concern me?

I also care about finding out what went wrong here - but I'm not so blinded by my hatred of the US president that I place myself under the dillusion that he is somehow responsible for everything America does or does not do. Your only real point in this is that he appointed the people in charge of the organizations that were supposed to help. They did a bad job and so it was a poor appointment. That's valid.

Yeah. A state that economically is a mere blip on the radar, forming 1% of the economy, but is at the same time responsible for 20% of the U.S. energy supply. It is (apparently) well known that New Orleans is the crime capital of the U.S., and that there is a lot of corruption going on. There will be a lot of blame to be handed out to that city I am sure (the schoolbusses issue bothers me, as does the fact that trains, busservices and airports were allowed to stop running so soon).

I love this... "were allowed to stop running". It's odd how you view the world.

I'm pretty darn sure that Louisiana isn't responsible for anything close to 20% of the US energy supply. I could be wrong though.

But the levees and the handling of the disaster once Katrina struck was federal responsibility. I mean, even Fox News realised this. Get a grip.

Negative. The levees were a state responsibility... like most of state infrastructure. Very little in the US is rightly a federal responsibility.

By the way, I was wondering yesterday, couldn't they use military sattelites to take pictures of New Orleans and noticed the thousands of people near the convention center? The weather certainly was good enough the days after the storm, and these sattelites are obviously good enough - even the Google Earth map shows enough detail, and that stuff is usually behind military grade equipment by 5-10 years.

This is a funny argument. "Since the US is all powerful and all capable - why did they not do a perfect job? It must have been negligence rather than my incorrect premises."

Yes, because San Francisco was also destroyed once, so they've learnt their lessons the hard way. You might want to read up on how that was handled and what effects that had on politics.

Misplaced condescension

They were hampered (guns are great aren't they? good thing they are so accessible you can even buy them at wall-mart) but they were far to late anyway.

Maybe if a few more citizens were armed they could have defended themselves against the few people who had guns. It's not like criminals have a hard time obtaining guns illegally (wal-mart leaves too much of a paper trail). Wal-mart supplies guns to the folks who would use them legally - like for hunting or self defense. I own a gun (I'm one of the very very few who do), and I sure as hell would have wanted it on me if looters were running around.

FEMA was integrated by his order into the DoHS, a department of his creation. Yes, he did appoint the airheads at FEMA, parking an old friend of his there, who in turn parked one of his own friends there.

Valid.

To quote you, I call BS. If that were true, the U.S. Army should suck too. But it doesn't. It was ready (for instance, the hospital ship lying off the coast that had sailed in right behind Katrina), but the order never came.

The U.S. military is very slow and very expensive. It's a perfect example of what I was talking about - I'm glad you brought it up. Our military is ungodly expensive, just look at how much tax money we're blowing in Iraq. Look at how long it took us to amass forces over there. It takes time to call people up to duty, mobilize troops, do some recon work, divise a plan, communicate the plan, assemble equipment, and execute.

Our military is very slow and expensive - and there's no other way for it to work. It HAS to be government, but that means it comes along with government price and efficiency.

Government is not inherently slow and expensive. But it can be when managed poorly. And that is what I think has happened.

Government is inherently managed poorly too - it's a logical consequence of government. The incentives are backward, especially in agencies like FEMA where the people aren't elected.

The anarchy of the streets is the extreme on your side of the scale, Danoff. The law of the street, the survival of the fittest, that's your ideology playing out right there, as soon as government falls away.

That's me, anarchist... oh wait that's not me at all.

 

[Arwin]

Ledhed, glad to hear your family made it out OK.

Arwin, you seem to have a misunderstanding that President Bush can just order National Guard troops to go march on any American city he wishes. Before he can do that the governor of teh state must declare a federal emergency and request federal aid which Governor Blanco did not do for days after Katrina hit.

This seems to be true. Apparently the governors initial contingency plan included help from the neighbouring states, which however were themselves struck by Katrina. She seemed to have been worried about martial law in New Orleans if she relinquished authority, and receiving all the blame afterwards. I said that there were screw-ups on all levels, and this may very well be the one biggest screw-up on the state level. But as you said, we'll have to see.

Now, from where I sit in my dry home and office it appears that FEMA screwed up but in reality I was not there to see what happened and neither were you. All I can see is what is on TV and no matter what the channel you are watching is that will not tell you what happened, why it happened, or how it happened.

But if you were there you aren't going to get a clearer picture. In the meantime though, you can in fact read up on the authority of FEMA in such cases, FEMA people apparently not even watching TV, and also what has been done in terms of prevention, how FEMA was reorganised into the DoHS, and so on. While I agree it is early, it does seem quite clear that there are some serious policy mistakes that made this disaster a lot worse than it needed to be.

For all we know they were doing the best they possibly could given the circumstances and were performing at the same, or higher, level they always do but a disaster of this nature made it seem much worse.

As you will see my comments have been most strongly condemning of the cuts in the projects and reorganisations that could have prevented the levees from braking. Maybe I'm too early in my judgment, but in these instances, it does seem quite clear cut that since 2001, a lot of bad calls have been made on everything regarding FEMA, and a lot of that was criticised and documented before the disaster struck. FEMA's apparently lacklustre performance seems to be a direct result of all this, but my main beef is and has been with whether or not the biggest part of the disaster could have been prevented, and were in fact on course to be prevented had there not been serious cuts in essential on-going projects.

In all reality we do not know. Not you, and not I. No one will until their is a full investigation, which President Bush has already ordered, and all the facts are discovered. You could be 100% right or 100% wrong or it could be somewhere in the middle. Right now, no one knows. If there is blame to be made and the recovery efforts are found to have been severly mismanaged then the blame goes from teh mayor of New Orleans all the way up to the president. No one man can be blamed for any of this.

I agree, no one man. But certainly Bush will be the face of a large group of behind the scenes people that will be held responsible.

If President Bush and the Republicans are to be blamed because of lack of funding to the levees then every president and every memeber of Congress for the last 30 years should be blamed because that is how long the federal government has been denying them those funds.

I think we already know this is in fact false. Until 2001, a lot of valuable projects were underway that could have prevented this from happening. Then after september 11, many were cut, and again in 2003, when another bad call was made by trying to merge FEMA into the DoHS.

As for New Orleans being the crime capital of the US, WTF? The violent crime rate in Detroit is nearly twice what New Orleans' is and the property crime rate is nearly 25% higher than New Orleans'.

I misfired there - I meant the murder capital.

 

[Danoff]

As you will see my comments have been most strongly condemning of the cuts in the projects and reorganisations that could have prevented the levees from braking.

That's not what the people on that project are saying. They're saying that nothing that was cut would have prevented the levees from braking. So I don't know where you're getting your information from.

Also, if the federal government cut it - why could it not be picked up by the state? And don't give me that junk that the state's budget isn't big enough to fund a civil construction project.

You're off base on 2 levels in this claim.

 

[FoolKiller]

I think we already know this is in fact false. Until 2001, a lot of valuable projects were underway that could have prevented this from happening. Then after september 11, many were cut, and again in 2003, when another bad call was made by trying to merge FEMA into the DoHS.

After researching more, I see you are correct. However, according to Reuters:

Lt. Gen. Carl Strock, commander of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, also said Bush administration funding cuts for the system of levees, floodgates and pumping stations that failed to protect the city had not contributed to the disaster.

You can find the story here. It even includes the Lt. General's exact quote.

I misfired there - I meant the murder capital.

And I am sure that will somehow fall on President Bush, but I don't quite see it. If anyone should have been prepared for that it should have been the mayor or the governor. It is not the responsibility of President Bush to declare marshall law or to expect how people will behave. FEMA cannot predict these things and can only know these things when informed by the local authorities.

As for FEMA apparently not watching their televisions: when my hometown flooded while I was in high school I lived oin a hill and was fine, but we tried helping my neighbors in the valley below and then had to try and reach my grandmother ten miles away. I didn't see a TV in two days. When we had a snowstorm here I didn't see a TV for a week because I was too busy trying to dig out.

It is possible that FEMA relied on local authorities to inform them of where people were instead of standing around watching the news. I know I didn't hear about the convention center for a couple of days and it was two days later before some people at work asked me what they were talking about, and I work in media research.

The biggest issue in the recovery operation was misinformation, nothing more, nothing less. The federal authorities are not psychic and don't usually show up with a television that someone stands around watching 24/7.

 

[Arwin]

That's not what the people on that project are saying. They're saying that nothing that was cut would have prevented the levees from braking. So I don't know where you're getting your information from.

Also, if the federal government cut it - why could it not be picked up by the state? And don't give me that junk that the state's budget isn't big enough to fund a civil construction project.

You're off base on 2 levels in this claim.

"That project ... " Which one do you mean exactly?

My understanding is that Louisiana isn't a particularly rich State, but ok. After the federal project was cut, they could have stepped in, perhaps, but I doubt they could have done that really quick. The point is, that the feds had assumed responsibility there, were apparently doing a decent job, but then were cut/cancelled.

But ok, I'm of course willing to wait a little longer and see if more evidence shows up. I've been looking at some DoHS documents and FEMA documents that seem to indicate that in a disaster of this scale, they can, will, and should assume responsibility.

I will, however, have to allow for potential conflicting laws at the state and federal levels.

 

[FoolKiller]

My understanding is that Louisiana isn't a particularly rich State, but ok. After the federal project was cut, they could have stepped in, perhaps, but I doubt they could have done that really quick. The point is, that the feds had assumed responsibility there, were apparently doing a decent job, but then were cut/cancelled.

Well, as I understand it (I could be wrong) the project wasn't cut. Funding was requested for levee improvements but Congress only approved a little over half of what they requested. It keeps being misquoted in the media as a cut when it was really a grant of funds below what they wanted, which is by definition not a cut. As the article and quote I posted above shows the Army Corps of Engineers (the people that work on the levees) said that it did not contribute to the disaster.

But ok, I'm of course willing to wait a little longer and see if more evidence shows up. I've been looking at some DoHS documents and FEMA documents that seem to indicate that in a disaster of this scale, they can, will, and should assume responsibility.

I will, however, have to allow for potential conflicting laws at the state and federal levels.

This is only after a federal disaster has been declared by the governor, which took a few days on her part.

 

[Arwin]

Well, as I understand it (I could be wrong) the project wasn't cut. Funding was requested for levee improvements but Congress only approved a little over half of what they requested.

Your c/site:

Since 2001, the agency had requested $496 million for that project but the administration budgeted only $166 million. Congress approved $250 million. Strock said he did not believe funding levels contributed to the disaster.

It keeps being misquoted in the media as a cut when it was really a grant of funds below what they wanted, which is by definition not a cut. As the article and quote I posted above shows the Army Corps of Engineers (the people that work on the levees) said that it did not contribute to the disaster.

Said he did not believe. But that's not very committing.

Also, again your s/cite:

Agency documents showed administration funding cuts forced engineers to delay improvements on the levees, floodgates and pumping stations. Levees were fortified after floods in 1927 and 1965. Congress approved another upgrade after a 1995 flood.

This is only after a federal disaster has been declared by the governor, which took a few days on her part.

It does not say that in the FEMA document I think, but you're probably right.

 

[Danoff]

Said he did not believe. But that's not very committing.

I saw an interview with him where he said that it did not have any effect. I believe it is the case that the failure took place somewhere entirely different than the part they had proposed to upgrade. But I could be wrong on that.

 

[Danoff]

Gov. Blanco and Mayor Nagin failed their constituents.
BY BOB WILLIAMS
Wednesday, September 7, 2005 12:01 a.m.
As the devastation of Hurricane Katrina continues to shock and sadden the nation, the question on many lips is, Who is to blame for the inadequate response?As a former state legislator who represented the legislative district most impacted by the eruption of Mount St. Helens in 1980, I can fully understand and empathize with the people and public officials over the loss of life and property.

Many in the media are turning their eyes toward the federal government, rather than considering the culpability of city and state officials. I am fully aware of the challenges of having a quick and responsive emergency response to a major disaster. And there is definitely a time for accountability; but what isn't fair is to dump on the federal officials and avoid those most responsible--local and state officials who failed to do their job as the first responders. The plain fact is, lives were needlessly lost in New Orleans due to the failure of Louisiana's governor, Kathleen Blanco, and the city's mayor, Ray Nagin.

The primary responsibility for dealing with emergencies does not belong to the federal government. It belongs to local and state officials who are charged by law with the management of the crucial first response to disasters. First response should be carried out by local and state emergency personnel under the supervision of the state governor and his emergency operations center.

The actions and inactions of Gov. Blanco and Mayor Nagin are a national disgrace due to their failure to implement the previously established evacuation plans of the state and city. Gov. Blanco and Mayor Nagin cannot claim that they were surprised by the extent of the damage and the need to evacuate so many people. Detailed written plans were already in place to evacuate more than a million people. The plans projected that 300,000 people would need transportation in the event of a hurricane like Katrina. If the plans had been implemented, thousands of lives would likely have been saved.

In addition to the plans, local, state and federal officials held a simulated hurricane drill 13 months ago, in which widespread flooding supposedly trapped 300,000 people inside New Orleans. The exercise simulated the evacuation of more than a million residents. The problems identified in the simulation apparently were not solved.

A year ago, as Hurricane Ivan approached, New Orleans ordered an evacuation but did not use city or school buses to help people evacuate. As a result many of the poorest citizens were unable to evacuate. Fortunately, the hurricane changed course and did not hit New Orleans, but both Gov. Blanco and Mayor Nagin acknowledged the need for a better evacuation plan. Again, they did not take corrective actions. In 1998, during a threat by Hurricane George, 14,000 people were sent to the Superdome and theft and vandalism were rampant due to inadequate security. Again, these problems were not corrected.The New Orleans contingency plan is still, as of this writing, on the city's Web site, and states: "The safe evacuation of threatened populations is one of the principle [sic] reasons for developing a Comprehensive Emergency Management Plan." But the plan was apparently ignored.

Mayor Nagin was responsible for giving the order for mandatory evacuation and supervising the actual evacuation: His Office of Emergency Preparedness (not the federal government) must coordinate with the state on elements of evacuation and assist in directing the transportation of evacuees to staging areas. Mayor Nagin had to be encouraged by the governor to contact the National Hurricane Center before he finally, belatedly, issued the order for mandatory evacuation. And sadly, it apparently took a personal call from the president to urge the governor to order the mandatory evacuation.

The city's evacuation plan states: "The city of New Orleans will utilize all available resources to quickly and safely evacuate threatened areas." But even though the city has enough school and transit buses to evacuate 12,000 citizens per fleet run, the mayor did not use them. To compound the problem, the buses were not moved to high ground and were flooded. The plan also states that "special arrangements will be made to evacuate persons unable to transport themselves or who require specific lifesaving assistance. Additional personnel will be recruited to assist in evacuation procedures as needed." This was not done.

The evacuation plan warned that "if an evacuation order is issued without the mechanisms needed to disseminate the information to the affected persons, then we face the possibility of having large numbers of people either stranded and left to the mercy of a storm, or left in an area impacted by toxic materials." That is precisely what happened because of the mayor's failure.

Instead of evacuating the people, the mayor ordered the refugees to the Superdome and Convention Center without adequate security and no provisions for food, water and sanitary conditions. As a result people died, and there was even rape committed, in these facilities. Mayor Nagin failed in his responsibility to provide public safety and to manage the orderly evacuation of the citizens of New Orleans. Now he wants to blame Gov. Blanco and the Federal Emergency Management Agency. In an emergency the first requirement is for the city's emergency center to be linked to the state emergency operations center. This was not done.

The federal government does not have the authority to intervene in a state emergency without the request of a governor. President Bush declared an emergency prior to Katrina hitting New Orleans, so the only action needed for federal assistance was for Gov. Blanco to request the specific type of assistance she needed. She failed to send a timely request for specific aid.In addition, unlike the governors of New York, Oklahoma and California in past disasters, Gov. Blanco failed to take charge of the situation and ensure that the state emergency operation facility was in constant contact with Mayor Nagin and FEMA. It is likely that thousands of people died because of the failure of Gov. Blanco to implement the state plan, which mentions the possible need to evacuate up to one million people. The plan clearly gives the governor the authority for declaring an emergency, sending in state resources to the disaster area and requesting necessary federal assistance.

State legislators and governors nationwide need to update their contingency plans and the operation procedures for state emergency centers. Hurricane Katrina had been forecast for days, but that will not always be the case with a disaster (think of terrorist attacks). It must be made clear that the governor and locally elected officials are in charge of the "first response."

I am not attempting to excuse some of the delays in FEMA's response. Congress and the president need to take corrective action there, also. However, if citizens expect FEMA to be a first responder to terrorist attacks or other local emergencies (earthquakes, forest fires, volcanoes), they will be disappointed. The federal government's role is to offer aid upon request.

The Louisiana Legislature should conduct an immediate investigation into the failures of state and local officials to implement the written emergency plans. The tragedy is not over, and real leadership in the state and local government are essential in the months to come. More importantly, the hurricane season is still upon us, and local and state officials must stay focused on the jobs for which they were elected--and not on the deadly game of passing the emergency buck.

Mr. Williams is president of the Evergreen Freedom Foundation, a free market public policy research organization in Olympia, Wash.

 

[ledhed]

Are you aware of the proposal to plug the lake ? it would have stopped the disaster ....but because of the fishermen and other enviromental concerns ..RE the effect on the ecology of the lake it was rejected . Talk to the thousands who drowned ... if you could about the "ecological impact " .

 

[Arwin]

One thing that struck me was how police officers closed the bridge over the Mississippi down to prevent 'refugees' from entering the town across the bridge by foot.

 

[Zardoz]

..I am not attempting to excuse some of the delays in FEMA's response. Congress and the president need to take corrective action there, also...The Louisiana Legislature should conduct an immediate investigation into the failures of state and local officials to implement the written emergency plans...

Bullseye. Sure, FEMA can do better and you have to wonder why way more federal funds have not been allocated for the levees, but the real shocker in all this is how badly the City of New Orleans performed as Katrina approached.

What higher priority could city government, particularly the mayor, have had than preparing for a possible levee breach?

Just their failure to have the buses out there collecting people alone constitutes criminal negligence.

 

[Swift]

Bullseye. Sure, FEMA can do better and you have to wonder why way more federal funds have not been allocated for the levees, but the real shocker in all this is how badly the City of New Orleans performed as Katrina approached.

What higher priority could city government, particularly the mayor, have had than preparing for a possible levee breach?

Just their failure to have the buses out there collecting people alone constitutes criminal negligence.

Yes, I have to say I pretty much agree with this.

Having the ability to get people out and NOT using it is a complete travesty. I could drive a bus if I had to(and one guy did ) to get people out.

 

[FoolKiller]

Your c/site:




Said he did not believe. But that's not very committing.

Also, again your s/cite:

I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say here with all the quotes but I think that you are trying to point out that improvements were delayed because they did not receive the funding they requested. No one knows if the improvements would have worked.

Yes, the Lt. General said he "did not believe" but since he is the best expert on the subject I am figuring his opinion is better than any politician's, pundit's, or anyone else for that matter.

 

[ZAGGIN]

Race has zippo to do with this. The only racists here are the people who bring race into it and say, "Bush hates black people" or something equally stupid.

so why do i only see black people floating face donw in that filthy stew?

 

[FoolKiller]

so why do i only see black people floating face donw in that filthy stew?

Because New Orleans is about 80% black. It is the same reason you see mostly black people still in their homes. If the majority of the population is a certain race then when something happens that is who you will mostly see.

It is simple numbers, nothing more. By the way, I have seen dead white people and white people looting. It is just that a mostly black town will have mostly black people suffering.

Also don't forget that the mayor and police chief are black. Are they racist against their own race and letting these people die? I don't think so.

 

[Danoff]

Here's a great article on fox news about the difference between private organizations and government.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,168732,00.html

Here's a peice of that.

When the Catastrophe Is Government
Wednesday, September 07, 2005
By Radley Balko
-snip-
The New Orleans Times-Picayune noted that by Thursday, WalMart had delivered thirteen trucks of supplies while government bureaucrats were still ringing their hands. By the time the federal government finally marched into New Orleans, the Red Cross had sheltered over 130,000 people, and delivered more than 2.5 million meals. By the time military brigades began rescuing people from rooftops, ordinary citizens had saved thousands with private boats.

 

[Arwin]

I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say here with all the quotes but I think that you are trying to point out that improvements were delayed because they did not receive the funding they requested. No one knows if the improvements would have worked.

But the levees that were improved according to schedule all held. From what I understand, btw, one levee broke and the two others breaks were canals.

Yes, the Lt. General said he "did not believe" but since he is the best expert on the subject I am figuring his opinion is better than any politician's, pundit's, or anyone else for that matter.

But I'm not convinced ... there were very specific projects that had to be cut. His comment sounds like a standard line. One of the projects that were cut in 2001 were restoration of the marshlands and the islands, of which all experts agree they would have lessened the storm and stormsurge's impact. It's also far too broad an answer to a package of funds that was halved - this is one figure, but there are many different projects that the FEMA then had to decide that were or weren't going to be carried out - note that halving the budget means a lot more than half of the projects can't be carried out as there are base costs in terms of personnel salaries to be paid.

 

[Arwin]

Here's a great article on fox news about the difference between private organizations and government.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,168732,00.html

Here's a peice of that.

When the Catastrophe Is Government
Wednesday, September 07, 2005
By Radley Balko
-snip-
The New Orleans Times-Picayune noted that by Thursday, WalMart had delivered thirteen trucks of supplies while government bureaucrats were still ringing their hands. By the time the federal government finally marched into New Orleans, the Red Cross had sheltered over 130,000 people, and delivered more than 2.5 million meals. By the time military brigades began rescuing people from rooftops, ordinary citizens had saved thousands with private boats.

I just read somewhere that the evacuation was also put into the hands of private organizations. I'm going to wait and see a little longer.

 

[Danoff]

But I'm not convinced ... there were very specific projects that had to be cut. His comment sounds like a standard line. One of the projects that were cut in 2001 were restoration of the marshlands and the islands, of which all experts agree they would have lessened the storm and stormsurge's impact.

Not something I want to pay for. The folks in Louisiana can and should fund that.

How much would it have lessed the impact? A sponge would have lessed the impact a tiny bit. Wasn't most of the damage caused by the failing levees (or canals)? Was any of the requested federal funding going to secure the areas that broke well enough to withstand a hurricane of that magnitude?

Just admit it, according the the head engineer (and none have stepped out to correct him), the federal funding that was not approved (rather than cut) would not have saved them anyway. Even if it would have , you should refer to the article I posted earlier about the role of local government in this matter.

 

[Danoff]

I just read somewhere that the evacuation was also put into the hands of private organizations. I'm going to wait and see a little longer.

I'm going to wait as well... for more information (from you or elsewhere) about this.

 

[Arwin]

Not something I want to pay for. The folks in Louisiana can and should fund that.

How much would it have lessed the impact? A sponge would have lessed the impact a tiny bit. Wasn't most of the damage caused by the failing levees (or canals)? Was any of the requested federal funding going to secure the areas that broke well enough to withstand a hurricane of that magnitude?

Just admit it, according the the head engineer (and none have stepped out to correct him), the federal funding that was not approved (rather than cut) would not have saved them anyway. Even if it would have , you should refer to the article I posted earlier about the role of local government in this matter.

I've still not even figured out to which year's budget the head engineer is referring to. For instance, for next year a lot more had been cut, and obviously there is also debate about if that would have helped, but I'm not looking at that.