Hurricane Katrina; Is the U.S. responding fast enough?

[FoolKiller]

But the levees that were improved according to schedule all held. From what I understand, btw, one levee broke and the two others breaks were canals.

Yes two of the breaks were from flood canals designed to catch the overflow from the levees in the event of a flood. The levees that held were on a river and not a lake, meaning they recieved different kinds of stresses. You can't compare those to the one that did break since it was on the lake.

But I'm not convinced ... there were very specific projects that had to be cut. His comment sounds like a standard line. One of the projects that were cut in 2001 were restoration of the marshlands and the islands, of which all experts agree they would have lessened the storm and stormsurge's impact. It's also far too broad an answer to a package of funds that was halved - this is one figure, but there are many different projects that the FEMA then had to decide that were or weren't going to be carried out - note that halving the budget means a lot more than half of the projects can't be carried out as there are base costs in terms of personnel salaries to be paid.

I have no idea how the funding they received was spent. It also seems to me that the Lt. General would want to blame lack of funds since the levees are his responsibility. It would be much easier for him to blame the people the media wants to blame and let them deal with it. That would have been picked up and thrown all over the place, but instead it was practically ignored by most of the media. Even the article I found with his interview kept talking about "funding cuts" even though the story was about what the Lt. General said. It makes no sense to give a standard line that risks himself being blamed when he could have pointed the finger and the media would have made him into a hero.

I feel odd supporting this man's statement considering that I have huge problems with the Army Corps of Engineers.

 

[Arwin]

Another driver is nothing new: the annual tug-of-war between the branches of government over who determines funding levels, combined with the repudiation of a previous administration’s policies. Most of the R&D decreases for the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency and Department of Agriculture budgets remove congressional earmarks. The president’s budget calls for eliminating the Advanced Technology Program at the National Institute of Standards and Technology (part of the Department of Commerce), a major component of the Clinton Administration’s technology policy. Another example is eliminating the Federal Emergency Management Agency’s (FEMA) Project Impact program, which was closely associated with Clinton’s FEMA director, James Lee Witt.

http://www.geotimes.org/june01/scene.html

Feel free to google Project Impact. I gotta run!

 

[Danoff]

Another driver is nothing new: the annual tug-of-war between the branches of government over who determines funding levels, combined with the repudiation of a previous administration’s policies. Most of the R&D decreases for the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency and Department of Agriculture budgets remove congressional earmarks. The president’s budget calls for eliminating the Advanced Technology Program at the National Institute of Standards and Technology (part of the Department of Commerce), a major component of the Clinton Administration’s technology policy. Another example is eliminating the Federal Emergency Management Agency’s (FEMA) Project Impact program, which was closely associated with Clinton’s FEMA director, James Lee Witt.

http://www.geotimes.org/june01/scene.html

Feel free to google Project Impact. I gotta run!

This point is nullified by the article I posted earlier.

 

[FoolKiller]

This point is nullified by the article I posted earlier.

I think the determination to constantly try and prove that President Bush made a cut in the budget somewhere and thus doomed New Orleans is getting pretty tiresome at this point. Some people started trying to pull the race card in the aftermath thread. I am sure that eventually someone will try and tie the two together at some point.

 

[Arwin]

I think the determination to constantly try and prove that President Bush made a cut in the budget somewhere and thus doomed New Orleans is getting pretty tiresome at this point. Some people started trying to pull the race card in the aftermath thread. I am sure that eventually someone will try and tie the two together at some point.

Honestly, that's not my intent at all! I just want to see what happening here. Remember, I live in a country where levees are at least as important as in New Orleans. I live and own a house in a city of 180.000 that is only 30 years old and founded on recently reclaimed land (early last century), and I work in Amsterdam, a city of 700.000 which is completely below sea level, as is a large part of urban Netherlands, where millions live below sea level and flooding from rivers is a serious risk that comes into play regularly.

I know that there are others playing the race card, the blame game, and so on, but I just want to know what factors play a role in this. Looking at the history of FEMA is one of those things that I can do fairly reliably now, because as you can see there are still a lot of websites that have not been updated recently.

 

[Duke]

so why do i only see black people floating face donw in that filthy stew?

You're an idiot. Seriously.

If a hurricane somehow plowed through, say, Norway, and flooded the fjords, you'd only see blond-haired, blue-eyed Caucasians floating face down in the wreckage. Or if it hit Mexico City, it would be only be brown-skinned, dark-haired people. When the tsunami hit the Far East, what did you see floating face down in the wreckage? Mostly Asians. The large majority of the victims you see are black because the large majority of the people in the area were black.

Cheese-and-rice. I promised myself I would stay out of this lunacy. I literally cannot believe some of the inane drivel I'm hearing spouted around here.

I think the determination to constantly try and prove that President Bush made a cut in the budget somewhere and thus doomed New Orleans is getting pretty tiresome at this point. Some people started trying to pull the race card in the aftermath thread. I am sure that eventually someone will try and tie the two together at some point.

That person is Kanye West, and he's already done it.

[edit] From Ben Stein's (yes, that Ben Stein) blog:

Get Off His Back (Updated)
By Ben Stein
Published 9/2/2005 11:59:59 PM

***UPDATED: Sunday, Sept. 4, 2005, 2:13 p.m.***

A few truths, for those who have ears and eyes and care to know the truth:

1.) The hurricane that hit New Orleans and Mississippi and Alabama was an astonishing tragedy. The suffering and loss of life and peace of mind of the residents of those areas is acutely horrifying.

2.) George Bush did not cause the hurricane. Hurricanes have been happening for eons. George Bush did not create them or unleash this one.

3.) George Bush did not make this one worse than others. There have been far worse hurricanes than this before George Bush was born.

4.) There is no overwhelming evidence that global warming exists as a man-made phenomenon. There is no clear-cut evidence that global warming even exists. There is no clear evidence that if it does exist it makes hurricanes more powerful or makes them aim at cities with large numbers of poor people. If global warming is a real phenomenon, which it may well be, it started long before George Bush was inaugurated, and would not have been affected at all by the Kyoto treaty, considering that Kyoto does not cover the world's worst polluters -- China, India, and Brazil. In a word, George Bush had zero to do with causing this hurricane. To speculate otherwise is belief in sorcery.

5.) George Bush had nothing to do with the hurricane contingency plans for New Orleans. Those are drawn up by New Orleans and Louisiana. In any event, the plans were perfectly good: mandatory evacuation. It is in no way at all George Bush's fault that about 20 percent of New Orleans neglected to follow the plan. It is not his fault that many persons in New Orleans were too confused to realize how dangerous the hurricane would be. They were certainly warned. It's not George Bush's fault that there were sick people and old people and people without cars in New Orleans. His job description does not include making sure every adult in America has a car, is in good health, has good sense, and is mobile.

6.) George Bush did not cause gangsters to shoot at rescue helicopters taking people from rooftops, did not make gang bangers rape young girls in the Superdome, did not make looters steal hundreds of weapons, in short make New Orleans into a living hell.

7.) George Bush is the least racist President in mind and soul there has ever been and this is shown in his appointments over and over. To say otherwise is scandalously untrue.

8.) George Bush is rushing every bit of help he can to New Orleans and Mississippi and Alabama as soon as he can. He is not a magician. It takes time to organize huge convoys of food and now they are starting to arrive. That they get in at all considering the lawlessness of the city is a miracle of bravery and organization.

9.) There is not the slightest evidence at all that the war in Iraq has diminished the response of the government to the emergency. To say otherwise is pure slander.

10.) If the energy the news media puts into blaming Bush for an Act of God worsened by stupendous incompetence by the New Orleans city authorities and the malevolence of the criminals of the city were directed to helping the morale of the nation, we would all be a lot better off.

11.) New Orleans is a great city with many great people. It will recover and be greater than ever. Sticking pins into an effigy of George Bush that does not resemble him in the slightest will not speed the process by one day.

12.) The entire episode is a dramatic lesson in the breathtaking callousness of government officials at the ground level. Imagine if Hillary Clinton had gotten her way and they were in charge of your health care.

God bless all of those dear people who are suffering so much, and God bless those helping them, starting with George Bush.

****
UPDATE: Sunday, Sept. 4, 2005, 2:13 p.m.:

More Mysteries of Katrina:

Why is it that the snipers who shot at emergency rescuers trying to save people in hospitals and shelters are never mentioned except in passing, and Mr. Bush, who is turning over heaven and earth to rescue the victims of the storm, is endlessly vilified?

What church does Rev. Al Sharpton belong to that believes in passing blame and singling out people by race for opprobrium and hate?

What special abilities does the media have for deciding how much blame goes to the federal government as opposed to the city government of New Orleans for the aftereffects of Katrina?

If able-bodied people refuse to obey a mandatory evacuation order for a city, have they not assumed the risk that ill effects will happen to them?

When the city government simply ignores its own sick and hospitalized and elderly people in its evacuation order, is Mr. Bush to blame for that?

Is there any problem in the world that is not Mr. Bush's fault, or have we reverted to a belief in a sort of witchcraft where we credit a mortal man with the ability to create terrifying storms and every other kind of ill wind?

Where did the idea come from that salvation comes from hatred and criticism and mockery instead of love and co-operation?


Ben Stein is a writer, actor, economist, and lawyer living in Beverly Hills and Malibu. He also writes "Ben Stein's Diary" in every issue of The American Spectator.

 

[Swift]

Thanks Duke

 

[Arwin]

This point is nullified by the article I posted earlier.

It is not, imho.

By the way, Duke, understandable reply. It would have been better still if some of the comments in that list hadn't been over the edge in the other direction, but ok.

 

[Famine]

You're an idiot. Seriously.

If a hurricane somehow plowed through, say, Norway, and flooded the fjords, you'd only see blond-haired, blue-eyed Caucasians floating face down in the wreckage. Or if it hit Mexico City, it would be only be brown-skinned, dark-haired people. When the tsunami hit the Far East, what did you see floating face down in the wreckage? Mostly Asians. The large majority of the victims you see are black because the large majority of the people in the area were black.

There's a difference between "most" and "all" though.

See this post. I made earlier.

It should be worth noting though, ZAGGIN, that all of the people you see are all of the people you're shown by the TV crews. Unless you're actually on the scene, conducting floating-body surveys and throwing quadrats around, don't jump to the conclusion that all you see is all there is to see.

 

[Young_Warrior]

How close is new orleans to texas?

 

[Swift]

How close is new orleans to texas?

Don't be afraid to use mapquest.

 

[Danoff]

Another driver is nothing new: the annual tug-of-war between the branches of government over who determines funding levels, combined with the repudiation of a previous administration’s policies. Most of the R&D decreases for the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency and Department of Agriculture budgets remove congressional earmarks. The president’s budget calls for eliminating the Advanced Technology Program at the National Institute of Standards and Technology (part of the Department of Commerce), a major component of the Clinton Administration’s technology policy. Another example is eliminating the Federal Emergency Management Agency’s (FEMA) Project Impact program, which was closely associated with Clinton’s FEMA director, James Lee Witt.

http://www.geotimes.org/june01/scene.html

This point is nullified by the article I posted earlier.

It is not, imho.

So what was your point here? That Bush is responsible for the lack of preparation in NO because he cut a program designed to tell them to get prepared? The article I posted earlier clearly lays out how it is the state and local government's responsibility to get on the ball about these sorts of things. It is not the federal government's job to spend money calling them and hassling them to do their homework.

 

[Famine]

How close is new orleans to texas?

About 250 miles, give or take.

 

[Danoff]

Don't be afraid to use mapquest.

That map is outdated. It still has New Orleans indicated as a city. There shouldn't be land there, it's underwater.

 

[ledhed]

@ danoff 👍

 

[Swift]

That map is outdated. It still has New Orleans indicated as a city. There shouldn't be land there, it's underwater.

True enough. But that's where it was

 

[Famine]

Will the replacement city be called New New Orleans? The Big Uneasy?

 

[Swift]

Will the replacement city be called New New Orleans? The Big Uneasy?

Call back in 5 years when they start building.

 

[Young_Warrior]

@ danoff 👍

YEAH GOOD RIDDANCE

 

[ledhed]

Not if Mardi Gras gets cancelled it aint !

 

[Arwin]

So what was your point here? That Bush is responsible for the lack of preparation in NO because he cut a program designed to tell them to get prepared? The article I posted earlier clearly lays out how it is the state and local government's responsibility to get on the ball about these sorts of things. It is not the federal government's job to spend money calling them and hassling them to do their homework.

As said, so far I've been mostly interested in the levees and why New Orleans ended up posing as New Venice. It does seem to me that funding for federal projects to prevent this from happening or at least mitigate the effects have been cancelled as a result of a change in policy and priorities. Now I know, danoff, that you consider that a good thing because it is a State's own responsibility. I'll accept that, but I also reserve the right to strongly disagree: at least internationally I don't think its common for such large projects to be managed at the state level, nor was it intrinsically Bush's intention to change this - he merely shifted funds to different priorities: more terrorism, less domestic natural disaster mitigation.

 

[Young_Warrior]

http://www.thesuperficial.com/archives/2005/09/06/kanye_west_is.html He sure sticks it to "the man". I wonder what the first thing bush said when he first saw it. I think I hvae a pretty good idea.

 

[Solid Fro]

Kanye West is a tool.

Such an arrogant fool, his career is over.

 

[Young_Warrior]

Kanye West is a tool.

Such an arrogant fool, his career is over.

That I doubt. His music will appeal even more to black people and seein as his album actually talks about real things and not the same old generic stuff most rappers are putting out I think he will do just fine. Lets remeber tupac spoke out against the government and president but he did it indirectly and hes a legend. At worst kanye will be known as a man who wasnt scared to speak his mind and had best he will be idolised by millions.

I take it you like bush.

At the end of the day this is what I think. Why did it take 5 days for help to arrive????????????????????? Whats goin on and actually it annoys me it took that long and it annoys me even more that as a strong minded proud man that seeks to do right for everyone and anyone I am helpless to help people and that these so called leaders just sat on their backside and didnt do anything. And I feel this way and hell I live in london.

 

[Solid Fro]

Just because you hate Bush doesn't mean you can make up facts. Kanye West is factually wrong and his statements cannot be proved.

I would recommend you go back and read the posts in this thread, Young Warrior. Your questions have already been answered.

 

[Young_Warrior]

Just because you hate Bush doesn't mean you can make up facts. Kanye West is factually wrong and his statements cannot be proved.

I would recommend you go back and read the posts in this thread, Young Warrior. Your questions have already been answered.

They have been answered but those are just excuses. Doesnt take 5 days to help people.

Just thought about kanyes words. Why the hell did they allow them to shoot the people looking for food. Explain that one. Alot of the food would be just rutting away and be sitting there for the rats anyway so they should just let the people have it.

 

[Solid Fro]

Around and around we go...

Five days is incorrect. First responders were in the effected zones within 24 hours. If you want to know why the National Guard was late or why the Red Cross wasn't allowed in the Super Dome, then you must ask your questions to the Governor of Louisiana, Kathleen Blanco.

In the United States of America, Young Warrior, it is illegal to take property that does not belong to you. There is no excuse to break into a grocery store and steal a box of Snickers bars. There is no excuse to break into an electronics store and steal a plasma screen TV. There is no excuse to break into a Footlocker and steal a pair a Jordan XX shoes. People are not taking bread or water, it is an excuse to loot, as proven by the many images on TV.

 

[smellysocks12]

People are not taking bread or water, it is an excuse to loot, as proven by the many images on TV.

TV isn't a reliable source for information, it is biased, it is selective news. They show what the viewers want to see. Most people just take whatever they need. If you are in an emergency situation, you're hungry and nowhere food is being sold, you're going to take it if starving is the only other option you have. Not to mention, the food in those stores wouldn't be sold anymore anyway. Those products are lost, if people wouldn't have taken it by the time the city would be cleared they would call in some garbage trucks to pick up whatever goods are still in the store. What is being shown on tv are those few people walking out of stores with plasma tv's, who do not represent the majority of the people stuck in that situation, but are giving everyone taking things from stores a bad image because of what is being broadcast on tv.

 

[Solid Fro]

I saw it on CNN...

 

[smellysocks12]

I saw it on CNN...

.... and your point is? CNN is also television. They have an executive producer who selects from a huge source of footage what to show and what not to show on tv. Pulling scenes out of context just to show what might be 'interesting to see'.