Important information for top controller (DS4) users

[JayOTT]

In regards to Gran Turismo live events, the initial ruling at the Asia-Oceania final was that controllers would be permitted if practical (in individual competitions, not in team events). This bailed myself and a couple of Japanese players out, as the initial document had no mention of controllers, and I was hopeless on the T-GT after limited practice on the wrong wheel (T80). I couldn't take advantage of it, as the blow to my confidence affected my ability on the pad too, but at least the precedent had been set for other regions. Or so I thought.

Cue HellzFire mentioning that he was not afforded the same luxury in America. It's a miracle he even came close to being competitive given that sudden rule change. This left me concerned about my future ability to partake in live events, so I asked in an email what the ruling would be for this years competition. Unfortunately, the answer isn't good for us...

The respondent said that they want all competitors to use the same input device, meaning the T-GT, and made no mention of the Nations Cup having any exceptions to this rule despite being an individual competition.

Simracers may celebrate this as a victory, as to them, realism trumps everything. However, through the lens of Gran Turismo being an E-Sport, I think this is a bad move. Imagine qualifying for a Smash Brothers Ultimate tournament on the Gamecube style controller, only to be told at the event that you must use the Switch Pro controller? The buttons are in different spots, no way to adjust in time. It's the same problem here. The game lets you attempt to qualify on a DS4, but neglects to mention that anyone who does qualify using one will be out of luck at the live event.

"But adapting to the wheel is easy!"

Anyone who tells you this is fibbing. It was either not their first time using a force feedback wheel, or they have real life driving experience which helped them adjust. I did not have the luxury of either of these things in Tokyo, and even today on my G29, I'm still a long way off of where I need to be to consider switching from the pad.

I've asked in a follow up email about the Supra Cup and am waiting for a response. The information we know so far, as well as the site FAQ, implies that the Supra's operate under different rules and may allow use of DS4's at the final.

But as for the Nations Cup... if I was to qualify for a World Tour, I would be forced to turn down the invite, lest I make a mockery of Gran Turismo by being hopelessly off the pace. As such, me competing in the online qualifiers would only serve to interfere with the contest for those who can actually go to a World Tour. Which is why I'm leaning towards not racing this year, save for the Supra Cup if the news is positive.

 

[Sidawg2]

To be honest, I feel like the patch they put in right before the final season last year that drastically changed tyre wear in a way that definitely disproportionately hurt DS4 users was sort of a precursor to this, and then they were surprised that anybody still managed to qualify. But perhaps that's my tin foil hat.

While it is difficult to transfer to a wheel and be competitive it can be done, but yeah a bit crap.

 

[seadog777]

competitors to use the same input device, meaning the T-GT,

Although this doesn't, and never will, affect me, I think it's pretty unfair. There are probably thousands of great racers out there that simply couldn't afford a T-GT - have you seen how much they are? Worth every penny I'm sure, but some just don't have that amount of pennies!

And, if you've built up your skill using a particular control method (pad or wheel), it's a penalty to take it away from you that I personally don't see the justification for. Why should everyone use the same controller? Isn't that a bit like forcing F1 to use identical cars? Well, maybe not but you get my drift.....

 

[Lost Sheltie]

The live finals are a spectacle, so it makes sense that they would want everyone to look as much like racers as possible (hence the 'uniforms' everyone wears). Polyphony want to make this into a esport that loads of people will watch and compete in without a lot of knowledge of the game, so having a couple of guys sitting on controllers while everyone else is on wheels would be confusing and weird. Also you would get people saying that the pad/wheel is faster and that way lies madness.

Saying that if you are fast on a pad you will probably be fast on a wheel. SuperGT and MThomas prove this, and Calster will probably if he moves to a wheel. It is a pain to change from a pad to wheel, but if you are good enough then it is worth a shot to get a wheel as you might be the next Nico, Fraga or Lightning.

I would say if you do make it to a live final then go as it will be an experience you will never forget. Even if you come last (these are the best drivers in the world after all) being there will probably blow your mind a bit.

 

[JayOTT]

Polyphony want to make this into a esport that loads of people will watch and compete in without a lot of knowledge of the game, so having a couple of guys sitting on controllers while everyone else is on wheels would be confusing and weird.

Which is why they used camera work in Tokyo to hide the fact that I was on the pad. The naked eye couldn't tell the difference because they never actually showed where my arms were.

Saying that if you are fast on a pad you will probably be fast on a wheel.

But that's exactly the problem, I'm not fast on a wheel. If I was this thread wouldn't exist. I could get better if there was more time, but we don't have more time, the season starts Saturday. So I would have to race it on a DS4, but then I'm not getting practice on the wheel. Compounding the issue is that I'm simply not having a lot of fun whenever I do attempt to get better on my G29. The lack of pace and consistency is depressing, and I also struggle with handling problems in the car that I'd barely even notice on the pad.

Speaking of depressing, you should've seen the state I was in after I had spent several hours attempting to improve on the T-GT in Tokyo, only to somehow regress instead. At that point, I felt that I didn't belong there. That I didn't deserve any of this. That I should've allowed the next highest rank (Noble) to go instead. It's a funk that I didn't recover from until after my block race was over and I could finally enjoy the holiday for what it was. A great holiday at that, but the competition experience was something I wish I could forget.

 

[Lost Sheltie]

Not sure what the solution would be as your arguments are good ones. Problem is that Polyphony are probably going to want everyone on the same kit for finals simply due to balancing issues(perceived or real) and the optics.

Maybe you could crowdfund getting a T-GT, as maybe that wheel would suit you more than a G29?

 

[Fosterions]

From an outsider/spectator of mild interest I like that they make people use wheels. The simulation vs game conversation is key to this debate. Use a controller you’re gaming, use a wheel it’s a simulation. I think a simulation replicates as much of the real experience as possible. Personally, if I could not use a wheel I wouldn’t bother at all. I’d play something else. That’s me.

I think in this environment it levels the playing field and makes perfect sense. Ironic to the argument is the use of the same gear across everyone is that it eliminates the potential for mechanical advantage. Also, not all esports are the same and the comparison to super smash bros or anything that isn’t a driving game does not work for me. Racing games use wheels. Sorry controller users, as a spectator, I have watched some of the last few events live on YouTube, I 100% would not watch if even some/all/any competitors were using controllers.

I think it’d be interesting if a driver could use a wheel of their choice. The Fanatec vs Thrustmaster drivers, Pirelli vs Goodyear! But for sponsorship purposes alone I get why that won’t happen.

Can the mandate of using wheels only create an unfair balance in terms of the haves and have nots? Yup. You betcha. Welcome to racing and.... Earth.

 

[Pururut]

Saying that if you are fast on a pad you will probably be fast on a wheel.

Doesnt mean it will be instant. Even the best ds4 users needs to get used to it before being competitive.

Btw T-gt is stupidly overpriced and not everyone can buy it.

 

[Veinz]

Seems pretty fair to have everyone using the same input device imho. PD should have been be more clear with this though.

 

[seadog777]

From 10 (yes, ten) years ago..... enjoy.

 

[GaLbaNoryes]

I 100% would not watch if even some/all/any competitors were using controllers.

This is a really weird take. If all of them were using controllers, fair enough, but if some are and some aren't, what's the dealbreaker here?

Still, I think it's a good change. You wouldn't join a Siege or Overwatch competition with a controller having a keyboard and a mouse, and while in fighting games there has been instances of people using controllers, it's mostly arcade sticks. They should allow more wheels though.

 

[O604]

I agree it's unfair to those without a wheel. But GT does proudly proclaim to the Real Driving Simulator.

Silly, but I think the reason is the optics at their live events. Where there are a lot of camera shots of the drivers. It just wouldn't have the same "real"/FIA sanctioned/manufacture backed look with drivers on a DS4.

 

[Fosterions]

This is a really weird take. If all of them were using controllers, fair enough, but if some are and some aren't, what's the dealbreaker here?

Still, I think it's a good change. You wouldn't join a Siege or Overwatch competition with a controller having a keyboard and a mouse, and while in fighting games there has been instances of people using controllers, it's mostly arcade sticks. They should allow more wheels though.

I thought I was clear, the deal breakers are:

1. Controller == gaming / wheel == simulation. I have no interest in watching gaming competition of any sort beyond racing games and, to me, racing happens with wheels and simulations of that would happen with a wheel.
2. Using different input devices is not a level playing field for competitors.

 

[JayOTT]

Because forcing two players to use the same control scheme, even though only one of them has prior experience with said control scheme, is totally a level playing field.

Not how E-Sports works, mate.

 

[Pururut]

I thought I was clear, the deal breakers are:

1. Controller == gaming / wheel == simulation. I have no interest in watching gaming competition of any sort beyond racing games and, to me, racing happens with wheels and simulations of that would happen with a wheel.

So Csgo majors should be played with Some kind of Ps move gun? You can say csgo isnt a really a realistic fps so is the Gran turismo.

 

[mthomas_95]

Funnily enough the more time spent with the wheel the worse my Live Event results have gotten

 

[NevilleNobody]

Although this doesn't, and never will, affect me, I think it's pretty unfair. There are probably thousands of great racers out there that simply couldn't afford a T-GT - have you seen how much they are? Worth every penny I'm sure, but some just don't have that amount of pennies!

Unpopular opinion, if of able mind and body one is spending enough time to be that good at this game but cannot swing several hundred dollars for a decent wheel and seat, one needs to spend less time playing and more time making some dough.

 

[ARTAsean]

You simply can’t prove, in absolute terms, there is zero advantage between one peripheral or the other. Therefore, standardization of input method should be required. This shouldn’t even be up for debate.

(Not to suggest that PD’s prime directive with these events is absolute balance anyway — we already know it isn’t, because of the laughable N class BoP.)

However, if I may weigh in this without objectivity... The winner of the GT World Finals should be someone who is an expert of Gran Turismo. A player who completely crumbles when sat behind an FFB Wheel is not an expert.

 

[Pururut]

You simply can’t prove, in absolute terms, there is zero advantage between one peripheral or the other. Therefore, standardization of input method should be required. This shouldn’t even be up for debate.

(Not to suggest that PD’s prime directive with these events is absolute balance anyway — we already know it isn’t, because of the laughable N class BoP.)

However, if I may weigh in this without objectivity... The winner of the GT World Finals should be someone who is an expert of Gran Turismo. A player who completely crumbles when sat behind an FFB Wheel is not an expert.

What if the "expert" crumbles with ds4? Ds4 is the main input device of ps4 and no one should be called expert who crumbles with it.

 

[QTheRacer_31]

Didn’t they ship T-GTs to the finalists? I guess not Regionals finalists. At least the guys who got to Monaco. Which I assume did not include many guys without a wheel.

 

[Tassie_tiger]

I would say it's unusual for someone to be up to speed straight away when they make the switch.
It does take some time to adjust.

But don't panic. There's no need to be up to speed by Saturday.
The next live event is still 3 months away.


On a somewhat related fantasy matter.
If I ever got the chance I would be arguing to leave the red shoes behind in my hotel room.
Socks rule.

 

[ARTAsean]

What if the "expert" crumbles with ds4? Ds4 is the main input device of ps4 and no one should be called expert who crumbles with it.

Are you just being provocative, or do you truly believe we should forego the pinnacle of sim racing hardware just because of the very small percentage of contestants who personally make the choice to not use them?

To answer your question, the transition from wheel back to controller is a very easy one, as these finalists spent most of their lives using a controller. A wheel on the other hand, has a specific learning curve which, if you haven’t conquered, simply excludes you from the GT Elite (in my eyes.)

 

[Pururut]

Are you just being provocative, or do you truly believe we should forego the pinnacle of sim racing hardware just because of the very small percentage of contestants who personally make the choice to not use them?

To answer your question, the transition from wheel back to controller is a very easy one, as these finalists spent most of their lives using a controller. A wheel on the other hand, has a specific learning curve which, if you haven’t conquered, simply excludes you from the GT Elite (in my eyes.)

Gran turismo isnt really a truly sim race. Therefore these rules are nothing but ********. Also no need to mention ffb wheels are more expensive then the Ps4 itself. This is practically saying as same as "**** you" to who dont own a wheel and wants to participate on these tournaments.

 

[Slapped]

I‘ve been watching this thread with a bit of interest, and I was initially thinking „why not a game pad as well“. Then I got to thinking that if the championships allowed the the pad then really I‘d have no interest in watching them - they might as well be playing Wipeout (good game by the way), Ridge Racer, Trackmania, or any other arcade racing game

The fact that only wheel is allowed adds some authenticity to the proceedings, and makes it feel as if the contestants are really driving. If it was a bunch of guys just using a controller then I wouldn‘t bother watching.

...and I also struggle with handling problems in the car that I'd barely even notice on the pad.

I picked up on this as there‘s a hell of a lot of filtering going on with the controller inputs to make GTS playable for those without wheels, which I suspect is why you‘re noticing this with a wheel. Given that the wheel is considered the only valid input device across all forms of sim motor-e-sports, somebody rocking up with a controller might be considered to have an unfair advantage given the amount of „behind the scenes“ assists afforded to controller players.

 

[Pururut]

somebody rocking up with a controller might be considered to have an unfair advantage given the amount of „behind the scenes“ assists afforded to controller players.

Yeah ds4 gives unfair advantage thats why best times always done with wheels in daily races.

 

[Tassie_tiger]

Yeah ds4 gives unfair advantage thats why best times always done with wheels in daily races.

I think you are being a little disingenuous.

Most of the best players use wheels.
So it's no wonder most of the top times are set on a wheel and not a DS4, regardless of what way a controller may "help" a player by filtering the inputs.

 

[weazelgt]

I was thinking about this while watching the Paris event. I understand why they don't want controllers at live events and I actually agree with it. They are having a tournament and all players should have to use the same identical device.

Let me ask this... PD supplied the T-GT to everyone at the event but not all users use a T-GT at home, is that unfair to the users who use a different wheel at home? Also, was each player allowed to setup their own preferred load cells on the pedals? I mean, if someone is mad because they can't use a DS4, than another guy should be mad because he isn't use to the button arrangement or load-cell on the supplied wheel/pedals.

My take is if you make it to the event then use what they supply, smile, shake hands and have fun.

I

 

[JayRS200]

Former wheel user here.

The pad has no advantages and there are no hidden assists that offer an advantage. Cars that are hard to drive on a wheel are harder to drive on a pad.

If someone is very good on a pad it's through lots of practice and experience.

As for tyre wear, the pad is at a disadvantage. There is very little pad users can do about this apart from just driving slower and less aggressively, while the wheel user can push more.

 

[Cuber Tom]

While it sucks for pad players that they're only allowing wheels at the event, I understand why they're doing it.
You said in the Asia regional final they filmed it in a why that didn't show your arms. Clearly the sponsors weren't happy with this. Puma and Thrustmaster clearly wouldn't be happy seeing shots that are lacking their logos or even worse appearing to actively avoiding showing their logos if you can't tell the player is on a pad

I was thinking about this while watching the Paris event. I understand why they don't want controllers at live events and I actually agree with it. They are having a tournament and all players should have to use the same identical device.

Let me ask this... PD supplied the T-GT to everyone at the event but not all users use a T-GT at home, is that unfair to the users who use a different wheel at home? Also, was each player allowed to setup their own preferred load cells on the pedals? I mean, if someone is mad because they can't use a DS4, than another guy should be mad because he isn't use to the button arrangement or load-cell on the supplied wheel/pedals.

They actually did give a T-GT to everyone who went to Monaco which was used as the criteria for selection in Paris. The only people who didn't have a T-GT at home were the subs in the manufacturers series. We were allowed to change any of the FFB settings and were told before the event that the brake mod would be removed

 

[Pururut]

I think you are being a little disingenuous.

Most of the best players use wheels.
So it's no wonder most of the top times are set on a wheel and not a DS4, regardless of what way a controller may "help" a player by filtering the inputs.

If ds4 really gave an unfair advantage then pros would set their best lap times with ds4. Not wheel.