Important information for top controller (DS4) users

[Veinz]

The pad has no advantages and there are no hidden assists that offer an advantage.

There is definitely a dampening effect in GTS when it comes to steering with a controller, every racing game does this.

 

[JayOTT]

There is definitely a dampening effect in GTS when it comes to steering with a controller, every racing game does this.

That merely balances the DS4 to the point of being viable against wheels. There is the occasional scenario where it might make us faster, but it's almost always offset by still being an imprecise device, and it's a skill in it's own right to be able to race on one.

If the DS4 was genuinely better than a wheel you would see a metagame similar to Forza: pad players dominant amongst the pro ranks to the point that T10 said "screw it" and made no attempt to hide the pads at Forza RC. Instead we have a situation where, even though the majority of the player base still use a DS4, at the top levels they are few and far between. Only Calster, Hellzfire, and formerly Mthomas at tier 1, and myself, Razaqa, and formerly Super GT being other notables.

I understand why PD made the decision they made. Doesn't mean I have to like it, and I think I've made some solid points here that at least got a lot of people thinking twice about the decision before offering their counterpoints.

 

[Veinz]

Not getting into what's better or worse, but saying there is no advantages to controllers is just not true. Especially in a series like Gran Turismo that is geared toward the masses rather than the hardcore sim racer crowd.

That dampening effect lets you get away with things you otherwise would not get away with on a wheel. That was one of my biggest hurdles when transitioning from controller to wheel.

 

[JayRS200]

Not getting into what's better or worse, but saying there is no advantages to controllers is just not true. Especially in a series like Gran Turismo that is geared toward the masses rather than the hardcore sim racer crowd.

That dampening effect lets you get away with things you otherwise would not get away with on a wheel. That was one of my biggest hurdles when transitioning from controller to wheel.

You couldn't be more wrong.

 

[ARTAsean]

You couldn't be more wrong.

You can give full lock-lock steering input on a controller in milliseconds, with the flick of your thumb. That’s simply not possible with a wheel.

I’m not saying that’s an advantage per se, but what Mike said is technically correct. There are things a controller does better.

 

[NevilleNobody]

I look at the controller like traction control. It's faster without tc if you're good enough but most use it as it's easier to get up to speed easily.

I'm a pad user and absolutely no freaking way should it be allowed at official events, just no way. Just get a wheel for God's sake.

 

[mike53]

You can give full lock-lock steering input on a controller in milliseconds, with the flick of your thumb. That’s simply not possible with a wheel.

I’m not saying that’s an advantage per se, but what Mike said is technically correct. There are things a controller does better.

OK, there's a couple of things a controller may be better for but it's obviously clear that the wheel is the way to go providing you can afford it, have space for it or are a dedicated enough player to have the desire for it. I hesitated against buying GTS til long past release date because I was concerned that the ds4 might be becoming obsolete in this game. No matter how realistic a sim-racer it may or may not be, it is and always will be just a video game and for that reason I'd be happy to watch the top players competing with their weapon of choice, be that ds4 or wheel. I like to identify with the competitors although they're light years out of my league. That's why I'd be rooting for the Canadian first and the ds4 player second.

 

[Groundfish]

For me, I race wheel, in car view. I love the fact that anyone with a ps4 and pad can go just as fast as wheel if they are good.
IOF said once he can turn the same times on pad, with wheel he is more consistent. (Older z28 stream)
I think on competitions, it’s good to have standardized equipment though. I had a chance to run a fanatic cal elite with load cell, and for someone like me with a lot of driving irl, it seemed with just a bit of getting used to it would be a huge advantage.
I think it’s good they use standardized equipment. They avoid this whole issue by so doing.
As far as day to day racing goes I personally love the challenge of racing HUMANS regardless of input device.

 

[Sidawg2]

My 2c here

Qualified for last years stuff on DS4 and did as much wheel practice on the G29 before I went to it, raced for the first time on TGT in practice the day before, narrowly missed world final.

The ceiling is lower for a DS4, but probably arguably easier to go "fast" on it. Then ceiling is a bit higher for mid range wheels, and then wheels like the CSL and the TGT are higher again. But the difference is so marginal its almost not worth the additional expense - unless you're chasing those hundredths that are required at the very top.

Adjusting to the wheel is easier if you understand racing fundamentals and haven't got into bad habits on the controller, but there's so much to learn. Everything your hands do has to translate to your feet and that takes time but you get there eventually.

The tyre wear will always hurt in the races. Used to drive me mad when i was on DS4 and that was partially why i moved on completely from it.

It's not out of the realms of possibility to save up and get a G29, which will easily be good enough to compete. You don't necessarily need the T-GT but it sure helps.

For what its worth, the games much more enjoyable on the wheel too. Once you get over the fear of crashing every time you accelerate its great fun to throw it around the tracks.

 

[HellzFire]

Completely agree with @Sidawg2 post.

I went to 2 live events last year having 0 experience with wheels. First one, at the world tour, I looked like a C DR driver in my first race, but went improving a bit in the next races.

In the second event, I had the first event experience which helped me a bit. Managed to be on pace with some guys and should have had qualified for the repechage race (which was pretty easy to do, because the car was easy to drive) and being there, had a good chance with all the chaos and weak draft, it was almost all about luck in that stage.

Since coming back from Vegas, I now have a G29. I took my time to adapt, think I'm on a good level with it now. Would undoubtedly perform better in a possible future live event (very unlikely to happen with the way more restricted rules, my luck lul).

I think GT should allow pads in the live events. Having used both, I can say both have their advantages and disadvantages. They are balanced with each other. If you spend the whole online qualifiers with a pad, you should use a pad in the event. It's also good marketing if pad drivers (majority in game) see that they are allowed to compete if they qualify. The vast majority of people that qualify would still use wheels, I can't see having a couple of pad players being a problem for Puma or TM tbh.

 

[fastone371]

Former wheel user here.

The pad has no advantages and there are no hidden assists that offer an advantage. Cars that are hard to drive on a wheel are harder to drive on a pad.

If someone is very good on a pad it's through lots of practice and experience.

As for tyre wear, the pad is at a disadvantage. There is very little pad users can do about this apart from just driving slower and less aggressively, while the wheel user can push more.

I completely disagree with this as I sometimes switch back and forth between my Fanatec and the DS4. I have mainly been running Race A with 1makes and I notice that some of the difficult to control cars are much easier to control with the DS4 than a wheel. The cars tend to slide less, recover from slides quicker, and brake control is much easier and I am not very good with the DS4

 

[Voodoovaj]

Seems pretty fair to have everyone using the same input device imho. PD should have been be more clear with this though.

There was a poll on this site and 70% of people said they use a controller.

Adapting to a change in input is no small task. It's like if they forced cockpit view. I can be fast in cockpit view, but not AS fast as my default view. So could I be fast with a wheel on short notice? Maybe. Could I be AS FAST? Likely not.

In every motor sport, the comfort of the pilot is taken into consideration. You see them swapping seats and sometimes, even steering wheels. Why should participants be forced to use an input device they aren't accustomed to? Besides, with the controller being the defacto default input device by virtue of being included with and integral to the PS4, if there is going to be a single input rule, it should be only controllers.

I'm sure that would be unacceptable to many, so why should being forced to use a wheel be acceptable?

 

[Tassie_tiger]

It may even be the way the event is setup, equipment wise.
Are they running 20 (or however many) PS4s, or is it run on a computer?
Imagine having a large group of people, all competing in different events, not knowing who is actually going to be competing in later events let alone where they are sitting, and yet having all contingencies covered for all possible input methods?

And then there would be the spectacle of people sitting in the rig, some using the wheel, some with their hands on their laps, and others with their hands in the air using motion steering.

Nah, having everyone at the event using the same supplied equipment is really the only way to go.

 

[Slapped]

Has anybody considered that this may be less to do with PD and Sony, and more to do with the FIA - I can't imagine the FIA sanctioning a simulated motorsport event where people are using an input method that bears absolutely no resemblance in terms of look or function to the standard inputs of a car.

Can you also imagine the new intake of F1 drivers rocking up at their respective HQs, handing over their DS4s, and saying can you wire this in. They'd get laughed out of some very nice buildings.

 

[JayOTT]

I'm sure that would be unacceptable to many, so why should being forced to use a wheel be acceptable?

Because to the sim-racing crowd, realism is the only be all and end all, and us pad plebs are just an inferior species of human to them.

In all seriousness, this would be a huge controversy in any other form of E-Sports, and that's why I brought up the Smash Brothers example earlier. I understand that sim-racing isn't like most other E-Sports, but that doesn't make it any less disappointing that the decision to appease the sim-racing crowd comes at the expense of myself. We also miss out on the chance to create a genuinely entertaining rivalry between wheel and controller users at these events by shunning the latter entirely.

So all in all, those who see Gran Turismo as an E-Sport and might not care for hyper realism so much have been short changed. I don't think I'd be as upset about this had the ruling been consistent from the start, as it is the better decision for fans of the spectacle and sim-racers. However, what really frustrates me is that they went to the trouble of making the DS4 competitively viable, albeit with a slight disadvantage on tyres, and even said that it was okay to use one at my live event. Then they changed the rules in the middle of a championship cycle.

I'll end my ranting for now. I'm sure the new FIA season will be fun to follow, even as a spectator.

 

[Veinz]

Adapting to a change in input is no small task. It's like if they forced cockpit view. I can be fast in cockpit view, but not AS fast as my default view. So could I be fast with a wheel on short notice? Maybe. Could I be AS FAST? Likely not.

I know it's no small task, I made the switch myself a month or two after GTS came out and I'm still having struggles with it to this day. Using a wheel is not easy, especially when you throw in the clutch and shifter into the equation. It's obviously much more physical and you don't have anything dampen the steering, you have 900 degrees of rotation instead. For example, there is no way you will ever be quicker counter steering with a wheel vs flicking the analog stick with your thumb in GTS. Those kinds of disparities are the reasons why all input methods should be standardized, especially for a game that markets itself as "the real driving simulator" imho.

In every motor sport, the comfort of the pilot is taken into consideration. You see them swapping seats and sometimes, even steering wheels. Why should participants be forced to use an input device they aren't accustomed to? Besides, with the controller being the defacto default input device by virtue of being included with and integral to the PS4, if there is going to be a single input rule, it should be only controllers.

I'm sure that would be unacceptable to many, so why should being forced to use a wheel be acceptable?

At the end of the day they are all controlling the car in the same way though, maybe with some different paddle or button configurations on the wheel but that's it.

You couldn't be more wrong.

Prove me wrong then.

 

[TomBrady]

I would not say adapting to a wheel is easy. Certainly not, but the reasons it is difficult are also reason why your Smash Bros. comparison makes no sense. Adapting to a Switch controller from a Gamecube controller is incredibly easy compared to moving from a DS4 to a steering wheel, especially if we're talking about a fighting game. Comparing 2 controllers with the same basic buttons needed to play, and similar feel and responsiveness to the buttons is a cakewalk compared to going from a controller to a wheel. A wheel is not only significantly more precise, but it interfaces with the player in a completely different way to a controller. You're using your both hands and maybe both feet (if you left foot brake or use clutch) at the same time to control the game. They are 2 almost completely different skills frankly. At least with the Switch and gamecube controller you're still using your thumbs and buttons are mapped in the same basic way.

You essentially made a comparison that demeans your struggle rather than making it more empathetic.

I know it's really difficult for you guys, but you're just going to have to live with it. You made a choice years ago not to switch to using a steering wheel, and after seeing the first GT Academy competitions, I'm very surprised you're upset about them enforcing a rule that's existed since 2010. Not to mention, the evidence is there. Wheel users are faster, get a much more enjoyable experience, and are taken much more seriously.

And frankly, realism does matter. This isn't an arcade racing game, it is a simulator, and to expect the highest level competition to cater to the lowest common denominator when it comes to input methods is silly. ESPECIALLY now that it's sanctioned by the FIA, but also before when it was for GT Academy where they would be putting the winners into real race cars where their skill with a wheel is highly relevant.

I'm honestly surprised you guys are still fighting this. It's a losing battle and for good reason. You want to play a simulator in the least realistic way on your time fine. Use a controller, use a camera view other than cockpit, use active steering or whatever. But you shouldn't expect the highest level of competition to cater to your refusal to use the superior and only realistic input device.

Although frankly, this competition is hypocritical. They don't let you use a controller at the events in the name of realism, but will let people use insanely unrealistic camera views like hood, bumper, and chase camera. Honestly that's nearly as unrealistic as using a controller to play so I guess I can half see why you're upset.

 

[JayOTT]

Give me one good reason why I shouldn't add you to my ignore list for that Mr Brady. Because it sounds like you're trying to be aggressive for the sake of being aggressive rather than argue the matter in a reasonable, civil matter. You're backing up exactly what I was saying about the sim-racing crowd treating anyone who dares to play on a controller as an inferior human being.

And in trying to discredit my hypothetical scenario, you're also overlooking how the face button placement on a Gamecube controller differs substantially from a standard style pad, and how that could seriously hinder someone forced to switch due to muscle memory.

 

[Rinsky]

"Yamauchi revealed that the game has a total user count in excess of seven million. Around half that number — 3.5 million — take part in what’s termed “casual” (lobby) races.

The “competition” racers — those who’ve driven Daily Races in Sport Mode — come in at 1.5 million. For the most serious competition of all, the FIA-Certified Online Championship races, some 358,000 of us have tried our hand."

This is what should concern people. Out of Seven Million people playing GTS only 358,000 are competing in the FIA events. At an already low number of people they are going to Alienate even more people buy making a wheel mandatory. It really sounds as if they want this side of the game to fail.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Don't forget though, and this is INCREDIBLY important, this discussion is not about wheel versus DS4. This is about switching to the wheel on SHORT NOTICE.

It's incredibly rare for someone to be a controller user, get a wheel, and immediately be as fast or faster.

The input choice should be left to the individual.

As an example the real world, no one forced ALex Zanardi to use pedals after he lost his legs. The FIA accommodated the input he needed to use.

I know, from a marketing standpoint, it looks less legitimate to have people "driving" with a controller, but that's not an excuse to force someone to make a last minute change.

 

[Rinsky]

It's incredibly rare for someone to be a controller user, get a wheel, and immediately be as fast or faster.

The input choice should be left to the individual.

This is spot on. I just switched to using Thrustmaster T-GT after playing GT with a controller on the first day GT1 was released up until now.
The transition is not all the difficult but being as fast, consistent or competitive is. This is not something you can just throw at someone and expect them to remain at the same level they entered the competition with.
The cost of a T-GT to practice with will keep over half of those who want to compete in the FIA away.

 

[Voodoovaj]

The cost of a T-GT to practice with will keep over half of those who want to compete in the FIA away.

Yup. It's a big factor in my continued controller use.

If I'm going to get a wheel, I'm going to get a good wheel. If I'm going to get a good wheel, I'm going to get a good seat. If I get a good seat, I need to get a new screen to dedicate to that setup as well as investing in a sound system for it. If I'm going to have all that, I need a dedicated room for it.

 

[seadog777]

"Yamauchi revealed that the game has a total user count in excess of seven million. Around half that number — 3.5 million — take part in what’s termed “casual” (lobby) races.

I think Yamauchi might be telling fibs..... I'm in the Asia region and lobby racing is dull as 🤬

There may be between 10 to 20 lobbies, most of them have one participant (the person that opened the lobby!), a couple will have 2 or 3...... and that's Asia, where the game comes from!

 

[Rinsky]

Yup. It's a big factor in my continued controller use.

If I'm going to get a wheel, I'm going to get a good wheel. If I'm going to get a good wheel, I'm going to get a good seat. If I get a good seat, I need to get a new screen to dedicate to that setup as well as investing in a sound system for it. If I'm going to have all that, I need a dedicated room for it.

I just did everything you mentioned but the sound system.
1. Thrustmaster T-GT
2. Thrustmaster TH8A
3. Playseat Challenge
4. 65" 4K TV
Total combined cost was near $1500 to upgrade everything. Of course you don't need all of that to compete but like you if I'm going to invest in a setup I wasn't going with cheap equipment. That was still a lot of money just to drop on a video game and I completely understand why this is so frustrating for others.

I think Yamauchi might be telling fibs.....

Wouldn't be the first time he has told us some fibs.

 

[Voodoovaj]

I just did everything you mentioned but the sound system.
1. Thrustmaster T-GT
2. Thrustmaster TH8A
3. Playseat Challenge
4. 65" 4K TV
Total combined cost was near $1500 to upgrade everything. Of course you don't need all of that to compete but like you if I'm going to invest in a setup I wasn't going with cheap equipment. That was still a lot of money just to drop on a video game and I completely understand why this is so frustrating for others.

And to be clear, I don't think any of us are condemning this expenditure. When I was still hitting the race track, it was hundreds of dollars for weekend plus the cost of fuel. I went through sets of tires in weeks. Not to mention the cost of the motorcycle and all the gear. You pay for the thrill. I get it.

But, if I can get a similar thrill at a fraction of the cost, then why not?

 

[seadog777]

Yup. It's a big factor in my continued controller use.

If I'm going to get a wheel, I'm going to get a good wheel. If I'm going to get a good wheel, I'm going to get a good seat. If I get a good seat, I need to get a new screen to dedicate to that setup as well as investing in a sound system for it. If I'm going to have all that, I need a dedicated room for it.

The "immersion experience" route is not cheap! However, it can be justified to partners by comparing how much it costs to a set of good golf clubs (second hand too!)

 

[Rinsky]

And to be clear, I don't think any of us are condemning this expenditure. When I was still hitting the race track, it was hundreds of dollars for weekend plus the cost of fuel. I went through sets of tires in weeks. Not to mention the cost of the motorcycle and all the gear. You pay for the thrill. I get it.

But, if I can get a similar thrill at a fraction of the cost, then why not?

Oh exactly.
Racing in Real Life no matter at what level is going to be extremely expensive. Even figure 8 racing can wipe out the checking account very very fast.
This offers half the thrill at a much much lower cost.

The "immersion experience" route is not cheap! However, it can be justified to partners by comparing how much it costs to a set of good golf clubs (second hand too!)

View attachment 808705

That's just insane.

 

[seadog777]

That's just insane.

 

[Slapped]

Yup. It's a big factor in my continued controller use.

If I'm going to get a wheel, I'm going to get a good wheel. If I'm going to get a good wheel, I'm going to get a good seat. If I get a good seat, I need to get a new screen to dedicate to that setup as well as investing in a sound system for it. If I'm going to have all that, I need a dedicated room for it.

You don't need to go the whole hog for a wheel setup.

Honestly all you need is a G29 (which is rock solid, and can often be found heavily discounted), a desk which puts the wheel at driving height, and a chair that's stable - that's it. And this is coming from somebody who has the funds in place for a 2-3 thousand setup, but hasn't bothered because I get all I need from my current setup, which is as above.

Once you can drive with a wheel then you can switch from wheel to wheel without much of a problem. The differences in pedals are likely to take a little more time to get used to, but really not much longer than switching from GTS to AC or PC2 takes.

 

[azrilnazli]

they also should force cockpit cam and each player will be given large TV as shown on the above pics ( look at the giant hand )

wheel + cockpit cam + correct fov ....