Important information for top controller (DS4) users

[Voodoovaj]

You don't need to go the whole hog for a wheel setup.

Honestly all you need is a G29 (which is rock solid, and can often be found heavily discounted), a desk which puts the wheel at driving height, and a chair that's stable - that's it. And this is coming from somebody who has the funds in place for a 2-3 thousand setup, but hasn't bothered because I get all I need from my current setup, which is as above.

Once you can drive with a wheel then you can switch from wheel to wheel without much of a problem. The differences in pedals are likely to take a little more time to get used to, but really not much longer than switching from GTS to AC or PC2 takes.

"All i need" is a controller.

If I want to be immersed in the experience, sitting like a bus driver at a desk isn't going to cut it. (no offence. To each his own)

 

[Pururut]

How about a ds4 only championship apart from the T-gt only championship? It wont be as interesting as T-gt but at least best ds4 players can compete in there.

 

[Rinsky]

Honestly all you need is a G29

Wouldn't you want the T-GT and not another brand?
All wheels are not equal so there would still be a big adjustment racing with one brand of wheel then jumping onto another brand your unfamiliar with.
Seems to me if your really serious about competing then you would want the exact equipment you would be using at the finals.

How about a ds4 only championship apart from the T-gt only championship? It wont be as interesting as T-gt but at least best ds4 players can compete in there.

Now an all DS4 championship sounds cool but your not the first person on GTP to say it wouldn't be interesting if they used the DS4. Some have even said they wouldn't watch it and I just don't understand why.

Unless someone has a serious love fattish with one of the driver's who is watching them over the race on the screen anyway?
I've seen a few online first person shooters Championships broadcast on TV and I didn't find it any less interesting because they were holding controller's in their hands instead of guns.
I'm watching what's happening on screen and not the player's themselves.

 

[Slapped]

Wouldn't you want the T-GT and not another brand?
All wheels are not equal so there would still be a big adjustment racing with one brand of wheel then jumping onto another brand your unfamiliar with.
Seems to me if your really serious about competing then you would want the exact equipment you would be using at the finals.

No, if anything I'd go for a Fanatec setup - the TG-T is way overpriced for what it is IMO. And secondly once you can drive you can drive - you can get in any car and drive it. So for somebody that can actually drive, a different FFB wheel isn't going to make an immense amount difference.

 

[Rinsky]

No, if anything I'd go for a Fanatec setup - the TG-T is way overpriced for what it is IMO. And secondly once you can drive you can drive - you can get in any car and drive it. So for somebody that can actually drive, a different FFB wheel isn't going to make an immense amount difference.

I was just thinking at that level of competition if your unfamiliar with the current wheel being used one wrong button press could end your chances. Sometimes we do things automatically like second nature when we become comfortable with a certain (wheel in the case).

I know I have a few times now.

 

[Veinz]

Now an all DS4 championship sounds cool but your not the first person on GTP to say it wouldn't be interesting if they used the DS4. Some have even said they wouldn't watch it and I just don't understand why.

Unless someone has a serious love fattish with one of the driver's who is watching them over the race on the screen anyway?
I've seen a few online first person shooters Championships broadcast on TV and I didn't find it any less interesting because they were holding controller's in their hands instead of guns.
I'm watching what's happening on screen and not the player's themselves.

It's a racing game, it's nothing like an FPS. There is no other game genre where some of the skill set in game can translate into real life, at least not like racing sims. That's why it's far more interesting to see everyone use wheels.

 

[mthomas_95]

How about a ds4 only championship apart from the T-gt only championship? It wont be as interesting as T-gt but at least best ds4 players can compete in there.

I was able to (and still can when I go back on it) compete with the wheel on pad, both online and when I was at Live Events. Don't need a whole new championship just because the full time pad guys now have mentally given up before the Season even starts.

Went to the Nurburgring last year having never played the game on a wheel and got a 1st place trophy to show for the trip. I know it was a bit of a crazy race, but had I went in with such a defeatist mindset we certainly wouldn't have won

 

[Slapped]

I was just thinking at that level of competition if your unfamiliar with the current wheel being used one wrong button press could end your chances. Sometimes we do things automatically like second nature when we become comfortable with a certain (wheel in the case).

I know I have a few times now.

Real racing drivers handle this all the time - there are always changes going on, and there are also a number of "jobbing" drivers who may have several car changes in a season.

 

[Tidgney]

You get used to any wheel in a competition if you're already a wheel user.

To be fair in GT Academy 2011 I was a pad player, I then got advised I think by Famine but don't quote me on that, that they wouldn't let me use a pad at the finals. So I bought a wheel and got used to it, in the end I went faster on a wheel than the pad quite quickly it's just my consistency wasn't as good.

The pad argument happened at the first world tour as "WiFi code" and Mthomas both were pad players and they asked about it. I think the main reason for it is sponsors (From memory, they did say the reason), as Puma want people wearing the gloves and it doesn't really look relevant when you are using them on a pad (Not sure of their usability anyway with a pad). At the end of the day sponsors help pay for the event so whatever they say will more than likely go. A g29 is cheap as people have said and that's more than adequate as a wheel to be honest, in fact I always say get a g29 first, price for performance it can't be beaten.

The biggest thing that will affect speed though is a load cell but most people don't comment on that, there's a huge amount of time in a load cell (I say huge it's enough at the top of the boards/races to have a significant impact).

 

[Veinz]

Yeah I have a really hard time believing that any decent wheel user would have much trouble transitioning from one wheel to another, especially if they are switching to a better one.

 

[MortosDer]

And what about us motion control players?
I know, we're too poor to afford a wheel.

Idk. Watching a live event with some folks using wheels and other using pads. Doesn't feel right.
I was watching last years finals and what really annoyed me though, was seeing basically no one using cockpit view.
I know it's a videogame and all. But no cockpit view in the elite GT competition. Feels just wrong

 

[T_revisio]

It is simply for business and sponsor reasons, that the pad is not allowed at live events.

If the in race tyre wear multiplier is high, pad users will suffer badly anyway.

Without the high tyre wear, the equality between pad and wheel is a great achievement by PD.

 

[racer_xis]

You get used to any wheel in a competition if you're already a wheel user.

To be fair in GT Academy 2011 I was a pad player, I then got advised I think by Famine but don't quote me on that, that they wouldn't let me use a pad at the finals. So I bought a wheel and got used to it, in the end I went faster on a wheel than the pad quite quickly it's just my consistency wasn't as good.

The pad argument happened at the first world tour as "WiFi code" and Mthomas both were pad players and they asked about it. I think the main reason for it is sponsors (From memory, they did say the reason), as Puma want people wearing the gloves and it doesn't really look relevant when you are using them on a pad (Not sure of their usability anyway with a pad). At the end of the day sponsors help pay for the event so whatever they say will more than likely go. A g29 is cheap as people have said and that's more than adequate as a wheel to be honest, in fact I always say get a g29 first, price for performance it can't be beaten.

The biggest thing that will affect speed though is a load cell but most people don't comment on that, there's a huge amount of time in a load cell (I say huge it's enough at the top of the boards/races to have a significant impact).

What is a load cell?

 

[Tidgney]

What is a load cell?

In a nut shell pedals have 2 ways of measuring braking. By distance the brake pedal travels or by pressure, a load cell measures pressure so in a nut shell;

- Load Cell: You can go from 0 to 100% braking instantly.
- Non Load Cell: Takes time to travel from 0 to 100% as you have to go the full distance of the brake pedal

If you can brake at 100% instantly, you reduce the time to get there so you can brake a tiny bit later, add that up over a lap and you'll see an improvement . Takes some time to get used to a load cell though (I don't use one with the T-GT but did try the Fanatec one)

 

[racer_xis]

thanks

 

[Rinsky]

I was able to (and still can when I go back on it) compete with the wheel on pad, both online and when I was at Live Events. Don't need a whole new championship just because the full time pad guys now have mentally given up before the Season even starts.

Went to the Nurburgring last year having never played the game on a wheel and got a 1st place trophy to show for the trip. I know it was a bit of a crazy race, but had I went in with such a defeatist mindset we certainly wouldn't have won

I knew you were a pad user going into last year's events. Being a pad user myself back then I looked for people who could compete at the top level on the pad to give me motivation to keep working harder at it. I did not know you were not allowed to use the pad at the events. (Sorry like I said before I don't really look at the driver when the race is going on)
It doesn't really surprise me that you were able to jump right on a wheel and be competitive.

So I bought a wheel and got used to it, in the end I went faster on a wheel than the pad quite quickly it's just my consistency wasn't as good.

I'm struggling with consistently as well and so far that's been my biggest adjustment going to the wheel.
I really don't have a problem with it being mandatory to use a wheel at the live events but I do have a problem with the organizers not making that rule transparent to everyone who plays GTS since the dominant input device is the DS4 among the majority of players. That's a huge oversight on their part that did effect players competing.
I'm also not familiar with a load cell as I'm new to a wheel but it sounds like it's a device to give people a very unfair advantage.


I am surprised so many of you feel that using different equipment than what you would be using at the live events is not that important.
I fully understand people can adjust to almost anything fairly quickly so jumping from one brand of wheel to another is not going to have some dramatic effect.
But I do believe those who use the exact same setup at home, for practice, will have a better chance than if you don't.

If I was one of the top players in this game competing in the FIA events I would have the exact same rig used in the live events sitting in my house. I'm giving myself every advantage possible even if that advantage adds up to only one thousands of a second per lap on the track. That might just be the deciding factor in a very talented field.

 

[Sidawg2]

Perhaps it might be worth giving it a crack at qualifying, and show PD that it can be done. Because I don't like your chances going forwards if only wheel users qualify for this year's stuff.

It's not impossible to do but you do need to resign yourself to the fact that you kind of have to lower your expectations for a while and that you won't run as well as you previously have.

 

[TomBrady]

Give me one good reason why I shouldn't add you to my ignore list for that Mr Brady. Because it sounds like you're trying to be aggressive for the sake of being aggressive rather than argue the matter in a reasonable, civil matter. You're backing up exactly what I was saying about the sim-racing crowd treating anyone who dares to play on a controller as an inferior human being.

And in trying to discredit my hypothetical scenario, you're also overlooking how the face button placement on a Gamecube controller differs substantially from a standard style pad, and how that could seriously hinder someone forced to switch due to muscle memory.

Wow. So once again you're demeaning your own struggle by pretending that switching from a gamecube controller to Switch is anywhere near as difficult as switching to a wheel. That's hilarious. It only hurts your argument yet you're doing it again. Wheel uses your hands and feet, while any controller still uses your thumbs no matter what the button placement is. It's still a fighting game, and buttons generally response the same way across all controllers just compared to analog sticks, let alone a steering wheel which is entirely different.

No one is saying you're an inferior human being. Way to act like a drama queen there. We're pointing out the FACT that controllers are an inferior device for playing a racing simulator. Facts don't care about your feelings so if you don't want to feel inferior despite no one implying that you are, maybe you should consider admitting that you're choosing to use something that is objectively inferior. Then maybe people would discuss your issue, instead of trying to convince you that you should switch. I didn't do that, I just pointed out that you made a choice not to switch to wheels years ago and maybe you shouldn't be surprised that the competition isn't catering to that choice. I even said I'm fine with your choice to not use a wheel, but I don't think you should expect to be catered to in such a serious competition

And what about my first comment was not civil?? Brutal honesty is not aggressive. Frankly, you accusing me of being aggressive for the sake of being aggressive is FAR less civil than anything I said there. I started it off with why your issue is significantly more difficult than what you compared it to. I never once denigrated how hard it is to switch to using a wheel, and I never once insulted or accused you of anything, unlike your response.

You want to be rude to me just because you didn't want to hear what I had to say, that's fine. I can handle it but don't ask for a civil discussion while you're doing the opposite.

But go ahead and ignore me. Judging by your response and accusations, I think that would be for the best.

 

[TomBrady]

View attachment 808713

they also should force cockpit cam and each player will be given large TV as shown on the above pics ( look at the giant hand )

wheel + cockpit cam + correct fov ....

Been saying this for a long time. Cockpit view is the ONLY remotely realistic view. If you're using bumper, hood, or chase camera, you'll have the same visibility whether you're driving a go kart or a closed cockpit LMP prototype. There is something seriously wrong with that considering how different the visibility a driver has in those cars are in reality and even worse in the game if you're using cockpit view.

VR would fix this problem though so hopefully on PS5, we can play GT in its entirety with that because it's already brilliant in GTS.

 

[JayOTT]

@TomBrady

You're the only person here trying to debunk my Smash comparison. The only other person who had an issue with it was Fosterions, and they merely said that Smash isn't a racing game. Because everyone else actually understands the point of the comparison.

You're the only person here directly insulting the idea of playing on a controller with phrases like;

the lowest common denominator when it comes to input methods

refusal to use the superior and only realistic input device.

you're choosing to use something that is objectively inferior.

Every other argument in this thread has hinged on either equalisation of input methods or realism. Reasonable arguments that are pro-wheel without being anti-pad. You act like you're not disrespecting a large portion of the player base, but these jabs prove that you are.

You never wanted a civil discussion in the first place. You just wanted to get a reaction out of me. Congratulations, now go to the ignore list and never bother me again.

 

[fastone371]

@TomBrady

You're the only person here trying to debunk my Smash comparison. The only other person who had an issue with it was Fosterions, and they merely said that Smash isn't a racing game. Because everyone else actually understands the point of the comparison.

You're the only person here directly insulting the idea of playing on a controller with phrases like;




Every other argument in this thread has hinged on either equalisation of input methods or realism. Reasonable arguments that are pro-wheel without being anti-pad. You act like you're not disrespecting a large portion of the player base, but these jabs prove that you are.

You never wanted a civil discussion in the first place. You just wanted to get a reaction out of me. Congratulations, now go to the ignore list and never bother me again.

I couldnt comment on different controllers for other games because I only play racing games but with my limited knowledge I wouldn't think it would be extremely difficult to become accustomed to a slightly different button on layout. I do agree that if someone is serious about racing games that they should be playing on a wheel. All arcade racing games are played with a wheel rather than buttons just like driving cars IRL. I definately understand why PD wants everyone using the same input device at competitions and agree that it should be a wheel.

 

[Woodybobs]

Been saying this for a long time. Cockpit view is the ONLY remotely realistic view. If you're using bumper, hood, or chase camera, you'll have the same visibility whether you're driving a go kart or a closed cockpit LMP prototype. There is something seriously wrong with that considering how different the visibility a driver has in those cars are in reality and even worse in the game if you're using cockpit view.

VR would fix this problem though so hopefully on PS5, we can play GT in its entirety with that because it's already brilliant in GTS.

In my opinion, cockpit view on a flat screen is not realistic at all. There are features that other games offer that help but, when it comes to visibility, bonnet or bumper view are much closer to the visibility available in VR. In GTS specifically the lack of adjustable options for cockpit view render it as far from realism as chase cam. The ability to look around or "through" pillars and other obstacles can't be simulated properly on a single screen, at least in my experience in GTS, AC, and PCars. I can jump from VR to bumper without affecting lap times. I can't say the same for cockpit.

That being said, I do like cockpit cam, and it's what I use for most offline racing. The cockpits look so good it'd be a waste not to incorporate them into my playing experience. Also, as you have said, the varying levels of visibility between cars can only be replicated in cockpit view. However, even in cars with restrictive views, the outside views, rather than cockpit, offer visibility levels closer to VR.

 

[TomBrady]

In my opinion, cockpit view on a flat screen is not realistic at all. There are features that other games offer that help but, when it comes to visibility, bonnet or bumper view are much closer to the visibility available in VR. In GTS specifically the lack of adjustable options for cockpit view render it as far from realism as chase cam. The ability to look around or "through" pillars and other obstacles can't be simulated properly on a single screen, at least in my experience in GTS, AC, and PCars. I can jump from VR to bumper without affecting lap times. I can't say the same for cockpit.

That being said, I do like cockpit cam, and it's what I use for most offline racing. The cockpits look so good it'd be a waste not to incorporate them into my playing experience. Also, as you have said, the varying levels of visibility between cars can only be replicated in cockpit view. However, even in cars with restrictive views, the outside views, rather than cockpit, offer visibility levels closer to VR.

First of all, you're wrong. Cockpit view does have adjustments in GTS, Assetto Corsa, F1 2016-8, and pCars 1/2, but even if it didn't, it would still be by far the most realistic option. Frankly, comparing anything to chase cam is ludicrous. There's nothing at all more unrealistic and ridiculous than using chase cam. There's no defense of, or anything even remotely legitimate about chase cam, so please drop the entirely nonsensical comparisons to that execrable chase camera view. I'll at least take your argument in favor of bumper and hood seriously, but the second you try to dignify chase camera like that makes it hard to take you seriously.

Honestly sounds like you've never used VR. The only difference between 2D cockpit view and VR is some peripheral vision, and depth perception. The loss of peripheral vision is somewhat compensated for by radar and left/right button assignments (not to mention bumper and hood have the same peripheral vision loss so basically you're arguing we should do ANOTHER unrealistic thing to make up for something that's already unrealistic). VR doesn't remove the cockpit entirely like hood/bumper camera does on a flat screen. The fact is, even in VR, your visibility in a closed cockpit is still greatly limited compared to 2D hood/chase/bumper cam and the added peripheral vision doesn't at all make up for it. Your lap times being the same supposedly proves that by the way. The only thing that is a major improvement is depth perception, but otherwise, your visibility is far more limited in VR compared to these insanely unrealistic hood/bumper camera views in GTS

The fact you use lap times to justify what's realistic and what's not is ridiculous. You're SUPPOSED to be slower without VR just based on the massively improved depth perception alone. The fact that you're supposedly not if you use bumper cam just disproves your idea that it's realistic. Lap times is only an argument against 2D bumper cam because they shouldn't be on par with VR considering VR's blatant advantages of better peripheral vision and significantly better depth perception (which frankly is far more important when it comes to racing). 2D bumper overcomes those advantages by giving you an unrealistic amount of visibility, which is exactly my point. It's entirely unrealistic to have more visibility in a sim than you would in real life, and that's why your lap times should be slower if you're not using VR.

Eitherway, it's absolutely ridiculous for a go kart to have the same visibility as a LMP prototype, and VR does just as good of a job proving why that's incredibly silly as playing on a flat screen does. If you tried both you'd see what I mean. In VR, your visibility from a kart, or even an open cockpit car is near limitless while in a LMP1, it's extremely limited, just like it is on 2D cockpit view and in real life. Those differences should not be ignored. 2 wrongs don't make a right. Losing only some peripheral vision doesn't justify removing the highly limited visibility of closed cockpit cars. The best compromise is not to do ANOTHER thing that's unrealistic like using bumper cam, the most realistic compromise is to limit the damage of slightly lost peripheral vision. That's what adjustable cockpit seats are for in GTS, and that's what being able to look left/right with a button press and the in game radar is for as well.

The only reason I think allowing VR in these competitions would solve this problem is because it's the only area PD actually forces realism so far by not letting you use other camera views. I think if given the choice between VR, and flat screen TV - hood camera, more pro players would still pick flat screens with hood/bumper camera which would prove that the peripheral vision argument against cockpit view isn't very relevant at all, besides the fact of individual car visibility being completely ignored with the alternatives. If the loss of peripheral vision isn't that relevant to them, it shouldn't be to you so I'm curious of what the pro's would choose after they've experienced both extensively, VR cockpit view, or flat screen bumper/hood. I have a feeling they'd chose flat screens, especially when it comes to racing prototypes. I have few doubts in that they'd prefer 2D bumper cam over VR cockpit when it comes to prototypes and if I am right, that would just further proof why bumper/hood/chase cam should not be allowed in a serious competition. It's too much of an unrealistic advantage.

Some of this is pure speculation of course on my part, so you're free to argue against why you think my estimation is wrong. I'm only going on a hunch and am curious what they would say given the options, and given that they'd actually experience VR for a good amount of time with multiple car types

Not to mention, the lower peripheral vision is why I tend to position the seat as far back as possible in cockpit view, giving me a better view of my surroundings than normal with cockpit view. Personally I think that's the most realistic way to do it because it reduces the limitations of using a 16:9 flat screen.

Frankly, even on a 4:3 screen, cockpit view is still by far the most realistic option. There's no excuse for open cockpit cars having the same visibility as a closed cockpit car in a sim, and there never will be.

I know it's a videogame and all. But no cockpit view in the elite GT competition. Feels just wrong

Again, I could not agree more. In fact, I think letting players use bumper/hood/chase camera is FAR more unrealistic and silly than letting players use controllers, so actually I kind of side with the OP in a way, just not with his overall arguments.

 

[azrilnazli]

First of all, you're wrong. Cockpit view does have adjustments in GTS, Assetto Corsa, F1 2016-8, and pCars 1/2, but even if it didn't, it would still be by far the most realistic option. Frankly, comparing anything to chase cam is ludicrous. There's nothing at all more unrealistic and ridiculous than using chase cam. There's no defense of, or anything even remotely legitimate about chase cam, so please drop the entirely nonsensical comparisons to that execrable chase camera view. I'll at least take your argument in favor of bumper and hood seriously, but the second you try to dignify chase camera like that makes it hard to take you seriously.

Honestly sounds like you've never used VR. The only difference between 2D cockpit view and VR is some peripheral vision, and depth perception. The loss of peripheral vision is somewhat compensated for by radar and left/right button assignments (not to mention bumper and hood have the same peripheral vision loss so basically you're arguing we should do ANOTHER unrealistic thing to make up for something that's already unrealistic). VR doesn't remove the cockpit entirely like hood/bumper camera does on a flat screen. The fact is, even in VR, your visibility in a closed cockpit is still greatly limited compared to 2D hood/chase/bumper cam and the added peripheral vision doesn't at all make up for it. Your lap times being the same supposedly proves that by the way. The only thing that is a major improvement is depth perception, but otherwise, your visibility is far more limited in VR compared to these insanely unrealistic hood/bumper camera views in GTS

The fact you use lap times to justify what's realistic and what's not is ridiculous. You're SUPPOSED to be slower without VR just based on the massively improved depth perception alone. The fact that you're supposedly not if you use bumper cam just disproves your idea that it's realistic. Lap times is only an argument against 2D bumper cam because they shouldn't be on par with VR considering VR's blatant advantages of better peripheral vision and significantly better depth perception (which frankly is far more important when it comes to racing). 2D bumper overcomes those advantages by giving you an unrealistic amount of visibility, which is exactly my point. It's entirely unrealistic to have more visibility in a sim than you would in real life, and that's why your lap times should be slower if you're not using VR.

Eitherway, it's absolutely ridiculous for a go kart to have the same visibility as a LMP prototype, and VR does just as good of a job proving why that's incredibly silly as playing on a flat screen does. If you tried both you'd see what I mean. In VR, your visibility from a kart, or even an open cockpit car is near limitless while in a LMP1, it's extremely limited, just like it is on 2D cockpit view and in real life. Those differences should not be ignored. 2 wrongs don't make a right. Losing only some peripheral vision doesn't justify removing the highly limited visibility of closed cockpit cars. The best compromise is not to do ANOTHER thing that's unrealistic like using bumper cam, the most realistic compromise is to limit the damage of slightly lost peripheral vision. That's what adjustable cockpit seats are for in GTS, and that's what being able to look left/right with a button press and the in game radar is for as well.

The only reason I think allowing VR in these competitions would solve this problem is because it's the only area PD actually forces realism so far by not letting you use other camera views. I think if given the choice between VR, and flat screen TV - hood camera, more pro players would still pick flat screens with hood/bumper camera which would prove that the peripheral vision argument against cockpit view isn't very relevant at all, besides the fact of individual car visibility being completely ignored with the alternatives. If the loss of peripheral vision isn't that relevant to them, it shouldn't be to you so I'm curious of what the pro's would choose after they've experienced both extensively, VR cockpit view, or flat screen bumper/hood. I have a feeling they'd chose flat screens, especially when it comes to racing prototypes. I have few doubts in that they'd prefer 2D bumper cam over VR cockpit when it comes to prototypes and if I am right, that would just further proof why bumper/hood/chase cam should not be allowed in a serious competition. It's too much of an unrealistic advantage.

Some of this is pure speculation of course on my part, so you're free to argue against why you think my estimation is wrong. I'm only going on a hunch and am curious what they would say given the options, and given that they'd actually experience VR for a good amount of time with multiple car types

Not to mention, the lower peripheral vision is why I tend to position the seat as far back as possible in cockpit view, giving me a better view of my surroundings than normal with cockpit view. Personally I think that's the most realistic way to do it because it reduces the limitations of using a 16:9 flat screen.

Frankly, even on a 4:3 screen, cockpit view is still by far the most realistic option. There's no excuse for open cockpit cars having the same visibility as a closed cockpit car in a sim, and there never will be.




Again, I could not agree more. In fact, I think letting players use bumper/hood/chase camera is FAR more unrealistic and silly than letting players use controllers, so actually I kind of side with the OP in a way, just not with his overall arguments.

IMHO, the selected players is the most gifted and easily adapted with any given scenarios

So +1 on cockpit cam on fiawtc

 

[mthomas_95]

Or you could just chill out and not get so hung up at how other people prefer playing a game. If you only want full realism drive a real car

 

[Woodybobs]

First of all, you're wrong. Cockpit view does have adjustments in GTS, Assetto Corsa, F1 2016-8, and pCars 1/2, but even if it didn't, it would still be by far the most realistic option. Frankly, comparing anything to chase cam is ludicrous. There's nothing at all more unrealistic and ridiculous than using chase cam. There's no defense of, or anything even remotely legitimate about chase cam, so please drop the entirely nonsensical comparisons to that execrable chase camera view. I'll at least take your argument in favor of bumper and hood seriously, but the second you try to dignify chase camera like that makes it hard to take you seriously.

Honestly sounds like you've never used VR. The only difference between 2D cockpit view and VR is some peripheral vision, and depth perception. The loss of peripheral vision is somewhat compensated for by radar and left/right button assignments (not to mention bumper and hood have the same peripheral vision loss so basically you're arguing we should do ANOTHER unrealistic thing to make up for something that's already unrealistic). VR doesn't remove the cockpit entirely like hood/bumper camera does on a flat screen. The fact is, even in VR, your visibility in a closed cockpit is still greatly limited compared to 2D hood/chase/bumper cam and the added peripheral vision doesn't at all make up for it. Your lap times being the same supposedly proves that by the way. The only thing that is a major improvement is depth perception, but otherwise, your visibility is far more limited in VR compared to these insanely unrealistic hood/bumper camera views in GTS

The fact you use lap times to justify what's realistic and what's not is ridiculous. You're SUPPOSED to be slower without VR just based on the massively improved depth perception alone. The fact that you're supposedly not if you use bumper cam just disproves your idea that it's realistic. Lap times is only an argument against 2D bumper cam because they shouldn't be on par with VR considering VR's blatant advantages of better peripheral vision and significantly better depth perception (which frankly is far more important when it comes to racing). 2D bumper overcomes those advantages by giving you an unrealistic amount of visibility, which is exactly my point. It's entirely unrealistic to have more visibility in a sim than you would in real life, and that's why your lap times should be slower if you're not using VR.

Eitherway, it's absolutely ridiculous for a go kart to have the same visibility as a LMP prototype, and VR does just as good of a job proving why that's incredibly silly as playing on a flat screen does. If you tried both you'd see what I mean. In VR, your visibility from a kart, or even an open cockpit car is near limitless while in a LMP1, it's extremely limited, just like it is on 2D cockpit view and in real life. Those differences should not be ignored. 2 wrongs don't make a right. Losing only some peripheral vision doesn't justify removing the highly limited visibility of closed cockpit cars. The best compromise is not to do ANOTHER thing that's unrealistic like using bumper cam, the most realistic compromise is to limit the damage of slightly lost peripheral vision. That's what adjustable cockpit seats are for in GTS, and that's what being able to look left/right with a button press and the in game radar is for as well.

The only reason I think allowing VR in these competitions would solve this problem is because it's the only area PD actually forces realism so far by not letting you use other camera views. I think if given the choice between VR, and flat screen TV - hood camera, more pro players would still pick flat screens with hood/bumper camera which would prove that the peripheral vision argument against cockpit view isn't very relevant at all, besides the fact of individual car visibility being completely ignored with the alternatives. If the loss of peripheral vision isn't that relevant to them, it shouldn't be to you so I'm curious of what the pro's would choose after they've experienced both extensively, VR cockpit view, or flat screen bumper/hood. I have a feeling they'd chose flat screens, especially when it comes to racing prototypes. I have few doubts in that they'd prefer 2D bumper cam over VR cockpit when it comes to prototypes and if I am right, that would just further proof why bumper/hood/chase cam should not be allowed in a serious competition. It's too much of an unrealistic advantage.

Some of this is pure speculation of course on my part, so you're free to argue against why you think my estimation is wrong. I'm only going on a hunch and am curious what they would say given the options, and given that they'd actually experience VR for a good amount of time with multiple car types

Not to mention, the lower peripheral vision is why I tend to position the seat as far back as possible in cockpit view, giving me a better view of my surroundings than normal with cockpit view. Personally I think that's the most realistic way to do it because it reduces the limitations of using a 16:9 flat screen.

Frankly, even on a 4:3 screen, cockpit view is still by far the most realistic option. There's no excuse for open cockpit cars having the same visibility as a closed cockpit car in a sim, and there never will be.




Again, I could not agree more. In fact, I think letting players use bumper/hood/chase camera is FAR more unrealistic and silly than letting players use controllers, so actually I kind of side with the OP in a way, just not with his overall arguments.

Whoa, that went from conversational to hysterical too quickly for me. I'm at a loss as to why you felt the need to get so aggressive.

First of all, you're wrong. Cockpit view does have adjustments in GTS, Assetto Corsa, F1 2016-8, and pCars 1/2,

My point was that GTS doesn't have the options that those other games have. If you think that height, and forward/back adjustments are enough then fair enough. IMO, adjustable FOV and a look to apex option are essential to make cockpit view realistic. Presumably others have their own opinions on what options should be available.

Frankly, comparing anything to chase cam is ludicrous. There's nothing at all more unrealistic and ridiculous than using chase cam. There's no defense of, or anything even remotely legitimate about chase cam, so please drop the entirely nonsensical comparisons to that execrable chase camera view

For the record I don't deny the legitimacy of chase cam. I quite enjoy using it with a controller. Being able to see cars to the left or right, while focusing ahead, is one area that is more realistic than any of the other views. It also offers an unrestricted view of the road ahead. This is more realistic than having a post obstruct ones view. Of course, IRL, there are posts and other obstacles for drivers to deal with, but stereoscopic vision means we can see through them. It's fine to have a favoured view, but the suggestion that comparisons can't be made is ludicrous.

you're arguing we should do ANOTHER unrealistic thing to make up for something that's already unrealistic).

I am? Where exactly? I'm more in favour of having the most realistic option available.

depth perception.

That's the crux of my argument. Specifically, it's the fact that we can't see beyond objects on a 2d screen. It's more realistic when those objects are removed because, IRL (or VR), stereoscopic vision effectively removes them for us.

You're SUPPOSED to be slower without VR

We are?

The fact that you're supposedly not if you use bumper cam just disproves your idea that it's realistic.

Without the unrealistic visibility limitations of cockpit view in 2D I can set the same lap times that I set in VR. To me, that's more realistic.

2D bumper overcomes those advantages by giving you an unrealistic amount of visibility

True. It's more realistic than the unrealistic visibility limitations in cockpit though.

It's entirely unrealistic to have more visibility in a sim than you would in real life

It's also unrealistic to have less.

your lap times should be slower if you're not using VR.

They're slower because of the visibility limitations of cockpit view on a 2D screen. That's the point.

Eitherway, it's absolutely ridiculous for a go kart to have the same visibility as a LMP prototype,

I'm not arguing against that and I addressed it in my previous post. LMP 2D cockpit view is so far from realistic, the unfortunate situation you describe is a necessity.

in a LMP1, it's extremely limited, just like it is on 2D cockpit view and in real life

For LMP cars the reduced visibility in 2D cockpit is more unrealistic than the increased visibility in bumper. Of course, that's a matter of opinion. I have no problems with the visibility in VR, nor do I in bumper view. For LMP cars in particular, visibility in 2D cockpit view is a world away from what it is in VR. I'd go as far to say that, in terms of offering a realistic cockpit view, they are the worst in the game.

The best compromise is not to do ANOTHER thing that's unrealistic like using bumper cam, the most realistic compromise is to limit the damage of slightly lost peripheral vision

They're both unrealistic. My argument is that bumper view is more realistic. The damage is best limited in bumper view.

I think if given the choice between VR, and flat screen TV - hood camera, more pro players would still pick flat screens with hood/bumper camera which would prove that the peripheral vision argument against cockpit view isn't very relevant at all

That's entirely possible, but my point is that bumper offers more realistic amount of visibility than 2D cockpit. I am not saying that bumper view and VR are the same.

I'm curious of what the pro's would choose after they've experienced both extensively, VR cockpit view, or flat screen bumper/hood. I have a feeling they'd chose flat screens, especially when it comes to racing prototypes. I have few doubts in that they'd prefer 2D bumper cam over VR cockpit when it comes to prototypes and if I am right, that would just further proof why bumper/hood/chase cam should not be allowed in a serious competition. It's too much of an unrealistic advantage.

They might. If given a choice between VR and 2D cockpit view I'd wager they'd choose the former. 2D cockpit, as it is in GTS, is too much of an unrealistic disadvantage. The outcome of either question doesn't prove anything.

There's no excuse for open cockpit cars having the same visibility as a closed cockpit car in a sim, and there never will be.

There's one excuse and that's the fact that our stereoscopic vision is severely hampered in a 2D environment.

I'll state again that I'm not saying bumper view is realistic. My opinion is that it's more realistic than cockpit. There are some cars, like those with open cockpits (amongst others) where the choice of view is not an issue. If that were true for all cars I'd be agreeing with you. When it comes to cars with restricted visibility it's my opinion that 2D cockpit is so far from being realistic that bumper view becomes the more realistic option. The only exception to this, that I can think of right now, is the Citroen Gr. 3 car. Presumably if there's one there are others.

 

[Maverick52]

No one is saying you're an inferior human being. Way to act like a drama queen there. We're pointing out the FACT that controllers are an inferior device for playing a racing simulator. Facts don't care about your feelings so if you don't want to feel inferior despite no one implying that you are, maybe you should consider admitting that you're choosing to use something that is objectively inferior. Then maybe people would discuss your issue, instead of trying to convince you that you should switch. I didn't do that, I just pointed out that you made a choice not to switch to wheels years ago and maybe you shouldn't be surprised that the competition isn't catering to that choice. I even said I'm fine with your choice to not use a wheel, but I don't think you should expect to be catered to in such a serious competition

Honestly, I think you're out of line.

At no point has anyone said a controller is superior to a wheel. The point of the whole thread is that the PRIMARY input device among players is not allowed at the highest level of competition, and that the rules regarding that were unclear at best. It is surprising that PD would allow a DS4 user to qualify for an event with one input method only to force them to use a much more complicated input method on short notice. If that was clear in the rules ahead of time then it wouldn't really be an issue, even if there is no good reason for the rule, but it wasn't clear and in fact was allowed previously.

 

[banckzy]

In a nut shell pedals have 2 ways of measuring braking. By distance the brake pedal travels or by pressure, a load cell measures pressure so in a nut shell;

- Load Cell: You can go from 0 to 100% braking instantly.
- Non Load Cell: Takes time to travel from 0 to 100% as you have to go the full distance of the brake pedal

If you can brake at 100% instantly, you reduce the time to get there so you can brake a tiny bit later, add that up over a lap and you'll see an improvement . Takes some time to get used to a load cell though (I don't use one with the T-GT but did try the Fanatec one)

Man I need me some load cell brakes lol