Imports

[Small_Fryz]

So what kinda power is it pushing?

Thats one of the nicest R34's ive seen

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

Then how about you post something?

I don't look around for import pictures on the internet, but here's one

Because nearly all those cars are no different from the others being posted in here.

The difference is out of the ones you posted, which was a good sized bunch, I would only want to drive in the Integra in the background and the Evo possibly. That 350z wants to die anyway.

 

[Perfect Balance]

So what kinda power is it pushing?

Thats one of the nicest R34's ive seen

Around 700hp.

 

[homeforsummer]

I've been to a few track days and autocrosses before. Usually they are filled with hundreds (and quite literally thousands at the latest one) of people who have been "right up to these cars when they've been flying past" and couldn't tell you where the lug nuts were. Same goes for any other race that has happened pretty much, well, ever. Don't act like standing beside something somehow makes you more qualified to know the engineering involved.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around how you came to that conclusion.

Just saying.

No problems, you're entitled to your opinion.

My point had two sides to it: The first is that he seems to bring up WRC or Touring Cars every time a subject like this pops up regardless of how irrelevant million-dollar bits of engineering are to road cars that probably cost a fiftieth of that brand new, and the second is that I've been following rallying and touring cars for almost two decades so I don't need to be shown how "wrong" I am via a subject I know very well and would have mentioned myself had I thought it relevant.

Anyway, last I'm saying on it. All I ever said originally was that the Legacy posted a few pages back didn't need bigger wheels...

And now, for something completely different:

 

[niky]

After my seat was installed it gave me a much better idea of what vibration or bounce was coming from where. Then when the summer was over and I took off the Azenis tires, which have very stiff sidewalls even for their class of tire, and switched to snow tires which were just the opposite, I found that my ride went to hell. The sidewall stayed the same, but they got softer, and that resulted in lots of secondary vibrations that the suspension didn't control. It felt similar to what you'd feel in a car with a flimsy structure, and before "it's a Civic" gets mentioned, it's pretty obvious that the car's structure didn't degrade because of changing tires lol.

I much preferred the stiffer, more direct ride quality my summer tires gave as opposed to lesser tires. I'm looking forward to making the change on the RX7, as right now I've got to deal with these balloon tires sounding like a bass drum every time I hit a bump and flopping around and vibrating afterwards.

Too bad Yokohama is phasing out the Advan Neova AD07s in favor of the AD08s. AD07s are available in ridiculously tall sidewall sizes (185/60R14!) and even moderate sizes (205-55R15 or R16) for smaller cars. And the carcass is strong as anything... I've hit wheel-destroying potholes with those, and even on a 45 aspect tire, with the rim visibly deformed, I got no bubbling or deformation.

And they're supposedly almost as good as the Azenis RT615s in terms of performance (a smidge slower)... but with better heat cycling.

The new AD08s are supposed to be much better... but they're freaking expensive. Way out of my daily driver budget. I'm thinking of going down to Kumho Ecsta SPTs for daily tires, saving my AD07s for track days, and replacing them with AD08s when they finally wear down to the cords.

I'm still hoping to find the ultra-hard-to-find 225-45R16 AD07s for my car, so I can run a staggered set with 205-50s on the rear.

I know, I know, hypocritical of me after bashing thin tires... but that's the widest tire that will fit on the stock-diameter mags that will fit inside the fenders and around my brakes. Any taller and it'd rub.

 

[McLaren]

6.0 Powerstroke w/ a Civic body stuck on it. A for effort.

 

[niky]

6.0 Powerstroke w/ a Civic body stuck on it. A for effort.

Powerstroke?

Diesel?

I'd so totally rock that one... A Civic that can drag race and haul a boat? Wicked!

 

[Time_Attack]

 

[Keef]

Most ridiculous thing ever. I'd love to see it run! I'd also like to see the hood they come up with for it lol.

 

[Horde_R35]

Most ridiculous thing ever. I'd love to see it run! I'd also like to see the hood they come up with for it lol.

I bet they wont find one ! But if they make one, they wont be able to see the drag strip!

 

[Glubags]

👍 👍

 

[speed junkie]

The question is whether stiffer is always better. And the problem is... there's an optimum stiffness for handling in any given situation, and stiff as possible is not it.

In the case of a car with completely stock suspension, yes, still will be better for any given situation. Even if that just means installing larger sway bars. Also, notice how I didn't say "as stiff as possible."

Errh... depends on what pressures you're running. More tire means you can pump them down on daily drives and pump them up stiff enough to prevent sidewall flex on the track. And with some UHP and R-Comps available in the relatively tall 50 and 55 aspect range, the sidewalls are more than stiff enough to make up for the extra height.

You guys keep bringing up this whole "pumping up the tires" thing. It is the worst idea in the world and I am not going to waste any more time debating it.

There's no way you're going to get a 70 series tire to perform on the racetrack... just as there's no reason to go for 35 series tires on a street car.

Agreed.

Again... too stiff is too stiff. Too little sidewall and the tires will simply skip at the edge of adhesion instead of digging in, leading to oversteer or understeer depending on which end of the vehicle goes first. It's the same a springs... having springs that are too stiff on one end of the car negatively affect adhesion.

Yes, too stiff is too stiff but I never said as stiff as possible, simply stiffer. A stock Miata or Legacy is not, by any stretch of the imagination, "too stiff for the streets bro." This is comming from someone who recently drove around New York City for two days on his Miata with 10/8 kg springs. Stiff? Yes. Bouncy? no. In case you didn't know the streets and highways of NYC, or any larg city for that matter, are terrible.

Let's not forget infinite adjustability, extra-large external reservoirs, and the need to specifically set them up for each and every event, otherwise they'd be a bit too soft or a bit too stiff. For a road car, you have to make a non-adjustable or a moderately adjustable system work for a much larger range of driving environments.

I never forgot all those reasons, just didn't bother to state them. And nevertheless, my point is still that they behave very similarly to a high end damper with the same valving characteristics. The fact of the matter is that no matter how much they can be adjusted, how much better cooling they have, or what materials they used to make them. They're still stiffer than almost anything on the road. So quit trying to prove that they can be stiffer only because they have expensive suspension.

For environments like ours, erring on the soft side is a good idea. If you have generally smooth paved roads, like Japan or the US (forgive the stereotyping), you can err on the side of stiffer. But again, there is such a thing as too stiff.

Well the soft side doesn't mean a stock Miata or Legacy unless your daily commute consists of dirt and gravel roads.

I'd agree with wider. Larger? Depends on what the stock profile is... but it's not necessarily a given.

I agree. In the case of that Legacy, an inch larger wheel in diameter will help, not deteriorate, tire performance. Especially considering that you'll have a wider range of better tires to choose from which brings me to my original statement: wishing that awesome legacy had some proper wheels and tires.

The typical "I'll dismiss it because I have no comeback" statement 👍

This is certainly not the case. Not by a long shot. My apologies for being preoccupied with other things besides the internet.

And if you're aware of the massive difference between purpose-built rally cars and road cars, why bother bringing it up?

Because when it comes down to it they still consist of a rigid body with a hydraulic suspension system used to both support the weight of the car, dampen the movement of the car, and absorb (to a certain extent) road imperfections. Just like your Miata.

So you concede that weight has a large part of play, and that a lower weight can get away with a softer setup and benefit from a better ride yet still maintain handling capabilities?

You completely failed to comprehend the point that I was trying to get accross. That or you chose to sit there with your ears plugged, rocking back and forth on your chair .

For your own sake, I'll attempt to explain it in a different way.

The springs simply provide means of support for the cars weight (yes I am aware that you can alter a vehicles handling by altering spring rates.) Given two different cars, one considerably heavier than the other, one will obviously require stiffer springs to overcome the extra weight (compared to the lighter car.) Once that extra weight is overcome, both cars will feel exactly the same in terms of stiffness, assuming their dampers have the same valving characteristics. This also includes, in the same manner as the springs, proportionally stronger sway bars. As we all know, sway bars are also a type of spring. As the "setup" is proportionately stiffer/softer compared to a heavier/lighter weight, the car will behave the same way in terms of stiffness. Will the lighter car handle more responsively (better in many cases)? Yes, but only because of the obvious fact that lighter bodies require less effort to change directions and the tires will have a smaller percentage of load from the cars weight and thus a larger percentage left for cornering and braking loads, not because it has softer springs since, remember, in terms of stiffness, it behaves the same way as its heavier counterpart with a proportionately stiffer setup.

Then tell me why they're not cheaper, if they're so similar to road-going units.

As Niky has said, they're built to a much higher standard, with a much greater range of adjustment, with much greater durability. And because of the better build, they're much better at what they do.

So no, I'm not over-thinking it. Rally dampers are one thing, road ones are quite another.

Manufacturer standards, range of adjustment, strength and durability. These are all aspects that affect my point very little. Which is why I didn't mention them in the first place. You can have a damper with less adjustment, that isn't as robust, and has crappy welds, and still have it perform the same as the rally damper given the same valving characteristics and internal design. The difference is, you wont have the adjustably and, in the same environment and speeds, it will overheat in 2 miles if it doesn't snap in half after a hard landing first. But, for as long as they can last, they will perform the same way. This is not an argument of adjustably and durability. The simple fact still remains: a stiffer than stock car will handle considerably better, regardless of how bad the road conditions are. The question that would remain would be what is the optimum stiffness (keeping dampening characteristics out of the equations for the sake of practicality.) And even still that optimum stiffness will always be considerable stiffer than stock, especially when you start using considerably stickier tires. Fact: The less a car's body moves during cornering or any other dynamic situation, the better it will perform.

Is a softer ride not what I've been saying all along? I know I used the word "better" before but it was used in context, as the whole time I've been talking about the car's ability to handle badly paved roads.

Yes, a softer ride IS what you've been saying but you seem to believe that they should be no stiffer than stock with stock tires because you have bumps on English roads. Which is why I brought up the rally car thing (specifically group A for being closer to regular cars as opposed to the rally cars today, and in Britain to show them driving on roads you may be familiar with. Along with the Impreza video that was on even worse roads.), a much stiffer setup on worse roads.

And "less predictable" is pushing it. I'm talking about a difference in an inch or two of rubber, not balloon tyres.

In the case of the legacy with near stock tires and as tall as they were, compared to a "proper size," yes, much less predictable, at least to a less experienced driver. I'll even go down a step and call it much less desirable because it will feel like a boat to someone who has eve driven a great-handling car.

You brought in the subject of dampers. I was just talking about wheels and tyres.

Wider and lighter wheels with tires will allow you to fit a better tire. I really don't want to get into the advantages of having a much lighter wheel and a wider and more "adhesive" tire compound as I'm sure everyone here is competent enough to understand them.

Getting a one or two inch larger wheel in diameter compared to stock is usually the way to go (depending on the car.) It will allow you to fit a better tire size (lower profile) and larger brakes. Logically, getting the widest wheel you could conveniently fit to allow for a wider tire without having to stretch is the way to go. Then you chose an offset that will allow for a flush fitment.

Stiffer is only worse in context. What I've been saying all along, in other words. Trust me, if the roads around here were like a racetrack I'd be first in line to set my car up like one.

What, by getting some Koni yellows and slightly stiffer springs?

As it is, fast driving is more fun and you can go quicker over here on the average country road if you have a car with some compliance. I'm pretty sure that was what I've been saying all along.

Compliance doesn't mean near stock suspension setup in both "stiffness" and parts.



Contributing the mighty imports thread:

Not really sure what to think about the rear fitment and camber though...

 

[-Fred-]

 

[Perfect Balance]

 

[McLaren]

Personally, that's got to be the nicest AE I've seen in a long, long time.

 

[Small_Fryz]

Win ^^^^ + Freds GTR's

 

[speed junkie]

I wonder why the shifter has been moved back. Surely they used a different, and apparently longer transmission, since the engine doesn't seem to be any further back then what they usually are.

 

[-Fred-]

The article states they're running a sequential gearbox made for an FD3S RX7. Which I don't really understand since they make sequentials for AE's, both in 5 and 6 speed.

 

[speed junkie]

Ah I see.



Contributing...

 

[niky]

In the case of a car with completely stock suspension, yes, still will be better for any given situation. Even if that just means installing larger sway bars. Also, notice how I didn't say "as stiff as possible."

Most cars. Not all.

You guys keep bringing up this whole "pumping up the tires" thing. It is the worst idea in the world and I am not going to waste any more time debating it.

You've never autocrossed a car on 60-series tires, have you? Most people only play with cars after they've done all the obvious modifications or with good tires. I've gotten to play with various cars bone-stock. I've had rims touching the ground on occasion.

Pumping up tires and even playing with mixed inflation rates is a good way to get crisper performance from an unmodified car on the autocross and to even change the handling balance. Don't knock it till you've tried it.

Of course, that's not to say that as much air as possible is good... there's always such a thing as too much. But if the sidewall is soft enough to allow your wheel to touch tarmac at stock pressures, you can get a whole lot of extra performance by experimenting with better pressures.

And again... there are performance tires available in taller sizes. but I'll agree with you below... that there are more choices for the casual user in thinner sizes... simply because that's what the market demands.

Agreed.

👍

Yes, too stiff is too stiff but I never said as stiff as possible, simply stiffer. A stock Miata or Legacy is not, by any stretch of the imagination, "too stiff for the streets bro." This is comming from someone who recently drove around New York City for two days on his Miata with 10/8 kg springs. Stiff? Yes. Bouncy? no. In case you didn't know the streets and highways of NYC, or any larg city for that matter, are terrible.

True enough. A Miata is actually wonderfully pliant. Enough so that adding ultra-sticky tires to it bone-stock is enough to ruin the experience if you don't upgrade the suspension to suit. But for the tires that come stock with the Miata, and even slightly better ones, the suspension is more than enough.

Though, actually... such suspensions are the reason why I said what I said when we started this off-topic discussion (which is a fun enough diversion that it deserves its own thread). I've driven lots of modern stock cars. A bunch of them on track. And more of them off-track but in a spirited manner. Now, manufacturers, hoping for a good review, will sometimes give us stock cars kitted with bigger wheels, wider tires and sometimes (but too rarely for my tastes) with suspensions upgraded to match. And thanks to the advent of "tuner tires" (which I mentioned earlier), they give us these big rims with the same tire type and compound as the boggo standard edition.

Some cars can use the additional tire (especially if the stock on has crap sidewalls). Some just can't. I've driven boats on plus-1 or plus-2 rims (plus 2 is the biggest that most consider acceptable). And they were still boats. Only now, when they lost adhesion, they'd unpredictably skip like skateboards at the edge of adhesion, where, on the stock fitment, they'd simply slide in a calm and predictable manner.

I never forgot all those reasons, just didn't bother to state them. And nevertheless, my point is still that they behave very similarly to a high end damper with the same valving characteristics. The fact of the matter is that no matter how much they can be adjusted, how much better cooling they have, or what materials they used to make them. They're still stiffer than almost anything on the road. So quit trying to prove that they can be stiffer only because they have expensive suspension.

They can be stiffer because you can adjust them to suit each and every stage.

All road-going suspensions are compromises. With a non-adjustable damper, you can have it riding great when it's just you, then it's too soft when you have a full load. It'll ride great on the highway, but not on a back-road. It'll ride great on a back-road, but be too wallowy on the highway, or oscillate terribly over high-speed ruts and bumps.

With my adjustable dampers, I find myself changing settings every other day to suit where I'll be driving for that day.

It's very rare to come upon a suspension that gets everything absolutely perfect without adjustability. And even then, opinions will differ over what's perfect. Perfect comfort for everyone will not always mean perfect performance.

Well the soft side doesn't mean a stock Miata or Legacy unless your daily commute consists of dirt and gravel roads.

They sort of are. Especially after that last typhoon. I hate taking my cars out now... the dirt is killing my tires, and last time I went out, I got a tree branch stuck in my subframe.

I agree. In the case of that Legacy, an inch larger wheel in diameter will help, not deteriorate, tire performance. Especially considering that you'll have a wider range of better tires to choose from which brings me to my original statement: wishing that awesome legacy had some proper wheels and tires.

In this case, I'd agree with you that it's better, but mostly because you can get better tires in a different size. But upsizing, by itself, is not the total solution.

Petitioning... should this discussion get its own thread? It's an interesting one.

---

I bet they wont find one ! But if they make one, they wont be able to see the drag strip!

That's what periscopes are for, silly.

 

[CodeRedR51]

I've seen this car in person. Came to the open house at Flyin' Miata last year. (he's running one of our turbo kits) Let me see if I can find a track photo...


...here's one:

And another:

 

[Talon]

Best Miata I've ever seen by far. 👍

 

[mazdaman]

The article states they're running a sequential gearbox made for an FD3S RX7. Which I don't really understand since they make sequentials for AE's, both in 5 and 6 speed.

Wow that's weird to me. Im also maybe for diffrent gear ratios?

 

[-Fred-]

Even then... HKS, Holinger, Hewland and the likes can customize one to your liking, with the ratios and final drives you want.

 

[Perfect Balance]

Suddenly this doesn't look so great anymore.

EDIT: Also, I now realize it has a turbo, massive brakes, a roll bar, and um...stock seats.

People don't realize how much more effectively they can drive with a better seat, not having to hold onto the steering wheel or bracing with your knees while turning. You don't realize how much you do it until you don't have to anymore. This goes for seatbelts as well. Recently at an autocross riding in my buddies Miata, he had the ecu laying on the floor, preventing me from being able to brace myself with my legs. I was violently hitting my knees into the dash each time the brakes were applied, with my body completely lifting from the seat, and I could feel the door handle prying away from the door as I desperately tried to hold on, which I stopped holding onto because I felt that I would tear it off.

 

[niky]

True, but some of us healthier specimens of the species don't want to feel like we're being squeezed by an angry anaconda when we drive to work.











Granted, there are performance seats out there that aren't built for a 100 pound Japanese engineer...

 

[CodeRedR51]

EDIT: Also, I now realize it has a turbo, massive brakes, a roll bar, and um...stock seats.

Definitely not a track car. He just did the track day for the open house.

Recently at an autocross riding in my buddies Miata, he had the ecu laying on the floor, preventing me from being able to brace myself with my legs.

What year car? I figure since it was on the floor, must have been a 90-93, which is where Mazda put it. He must have been missing the metal panel that covers it.

 

[Perfect Balance]

True, but some of us healthier specimens of the species don't want to feel like we're being squeezed by an angry anaconda when we drive to work.

I'm 6ft and weight about 215lb. A Recaro Pole Position fits SO well.

Definitely not a track car. He just did the track day for the open house.



What year car? I figure since it was on the floor, must have been a 90-93, which is where Mazda put it. He must have been missing the metal panel that covers it.

I want to say 91, and yeah it was missing the cover.

Although if that car isn't a track car those brakes are a good way to waste 2k. I realize plenty of people with highly modified cars don't track them but the brakes are more often left alone on a track car than upgraded on a street car. I saw them and the pic on the track and just assumed he tracked it.

 

[niky]

Interesting thing about the brakes... we were just talking about that a few threads back... a thread which also covered the ridiculously large wheels you see on cars nowadays... can't seem to recall which one that was, though...

I'm 6ft and weight about 215lb. A Recaro Pole Position fits SO well.

You call that healthy? I'm 215 lbs... and five foot flat. Well... five and a half, but still... you're downright skinny by my standards.

Gotta check those out... I do recall sitting in the SPARCO copy of one before, but it was too tight for me... I do like the reclinable Recaros, though... just enough support... but not all-encompassing tightness.

 

[Stotty]

I'm 215 lbs... and five foot flat. Well... five and a half...

I'm surprised you don't have to fit a couch.