Initial Torque: What do you do?

[oopssorryy]

Actually I found what you said to be very clear and it did clear up a few questions I had thought of, Thank You!

 

[itstheDRE4M]

itstheDRE4M, it looks like you've put a fair bit of time into testing this, thanks for sharing your results.


Are you assuming loss of traction based on the tyre colour going red? If so, the red actually indicates that the tyre is overheating. This can be caused by cornering/braking/acceleration, so it's not necessarily wheelspin aka loss of traction. A clutch-pack LSD isn't ever capable of spinning the outside wheel, so the red in this case is probably due to cornering grip.

----

Tire - under corner exit ( while accelerating ) loses traction.

I understand what you're saying, but I'm not assuming it due to the tire turning red on the diagram.

**
I am assuming it because of the tire marks left on the exit of corners.

**
And lack of corner exit speed.

 

[nomis3613]

I'm not assuming it due to the tire turning red on the diagram.

**
I am assuming it because of the tire marks left on the exit of corners.

Cool, if that's what you're seeing I can't argue with that!

I just wanna say in real life it's not possible to spin the outside tyre before the inside.

 

[itstheDRE4M]

Cool, if that's what you're seeing I can't argue with that!

I just wanna say in real life it's not possible to spin the outside tyre before the inside.

I know, because when turning/exiting a corner. The outside tire is where most of the cars weight is distributed.


I'm following up on my testing right now. I changed cars and got basically the same results. I'll be posting a thread illustrating my findings.


--to see an outside tire spinning before the inside.

Use any car(FR). Set LSD to 5/25/5 and drive around Tsukuba as fast as you can.

 

[Adrenaline]

I agree with itstheDRE4M (in regards to this only at the time), in game, it most definitely is possible to spin just the outside tire.

 

[oopssorryy]

I'm following up on my testing right now. I changed cars and got basically the same results. I'll be posting a thread illustrating my findings.


[/U]

I saw your thread thanks for doing all that research!

 

[Z1-AV69]

Let's put a link to itstheDRE4M's resarch thread in here: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=179606

Thanks !

 

[Poppins]

All initial torque is is how fast and hard it will kick the LSD in and accel setting relates to it, but having it set low locks and high unlocks the diff.

 

[Z1-AV69]

To answer the OPs question, here's how I used LSD initial
- increasing it resists the car yawing (makes the car harder to turn)
- high initial instead of high accel+decel (eg 30/10/10 vs 10/30/30) avoids quirky handling due to changes as throttle is applied/released
- often I use initial to reduce lift-off oversteer in MR and RR
- the real life equivalent is LSD pre-load, which is the torque difference between the wheels that is required to unlock the diff. Until cornering causes a greater torque difference than the pre-load value (in Nm or ft-lb), the diff is locked so the car is harder to turn. I highly doubt that the "LSD initial" value is in Nm or lb-ft, it is just an arbitary scale between no pre-load (0) and always locked (60)

I think I agree with this. Please correct me if I'm wrong:

As I understand it, there are 2 reasons for the LSD to lock: not enough torque difference between the wheels (controlled by initial) or too much difference between the wheels (controlled by accel/decel).

[CENTER]more torque difference
------------------------------------------------>
locked     -     open     -     locked
initial (+)                              accel/decel (+)
inside wheel                          outside wheel
[/CENTER]

The LSD shall lock when you go straight and/or when any wheel spins. Initial controls when the LSD opens or when the outside wheel is allowed to spin faster than the inner wheel. A value for initial is too low when the car lacks stability at the point where you want to switch from turning to straight line. A value of initial is too high if 1. too much understeer or 2. the rear end "jumps" outside too hard when the inner wheel gets equal torque at the beginning of going straight.

All initial torque is is how fast and hard it will kick the LSD in and accel setting relates to it, but having it set low locks and high unlocks the diff.

I see why you describe it like that. As I understand it what happens though is you give too much throttle out of the corner making the outer wheel spin first (because it has to use it's grip for cornering). This will lock the LSD (according to your accel-setting) and therefor giving more torque to the inside wheel. But the inside wheel loses traction too immediately after, which makes both wheels rotate equally, which causes the LSD to lock more according to your initial value.

Am I right?

 

[Will27]

I see why you describe it like that. As I understand it what happens though is you give too much throttle out of the corner making the outer wheel spin first (because it has to use it's grip for cornering). This will lock the LSD (according to your accel-setting) and therefor giving more torque to the inside wheel. But the inside wheel loses traction too immediately after, which makes both wheels rotate equally, which causes the LSD to lock more according to your initial value.

Am I right?

I think its the other way around. The inside spins first if the diff is unlocked because it is unloaded and has no weight on it, so a free turning diff sends all the power there(think of a off roader with no lock diff, if 1 wheel is in the air, that wheel spins and the car goes nowhere)

Then depending on the initial torque setting, the diff will lock, and send equal power to both wheels.

I think the accel and brake settings adjust how freely the diff turns when its unlocked, the higher the setting, the more the diff resists turning in an unlocked state, making the car understeer more, or under acceleration in a high power rear drive car, can create oversteer(instead of the inside wheel spining and the car losing drive traction, breaks rear traction completely by spining both wheels)

 

[Z1-AV69]

I think its the other way around. The inside spins first if the diff is unlocked because it is unloaded and has no weight on it, so a free turning diff sends all the power there(think of a off roader with no lock diff, if 1 wheel is in the air, that wheel spins and the car goes nowhere)

Then depending on the initial torque setting, the diff will lock, and send equal power to both wheels.

You're right, but the result is the same and that was my point.

Edit: Actually both can happen. At least in GT5 the outside wheel can spin first.

 

[Poppins]

You're right, but the result is the same and that was my point.

Edit: Actually both can happen. At least in GT5 the outside wheel can spin first.

The only reason the outside spins first is because it is at full lock and has all of the weight on it making it so the inside wheel is barely touching and cant really burn. Just gun it on a straight stretch in a high power car to test the locking. 5 locks it the fastest and hardest and 60 barely locks it ever if at all

 

[Poppins]

I think its the other way around. The inside spins first if the diff is unlocked because it is unloaded and has no weight on it, so a free turning diff sends all the power there(think of a off roader with no lock diff, if 1 wheel is in the air, that wheel spins and the car goes nowhere)

Then depending on the initial torque setting, the diff will lock, and send equal power to both wheels.

I think the accel and brake settings adjust how freely the diff turns when its unlocked, the higher the setting, the more the diff resists turning in an unlocked state, making the car understeer more, or under acceleration in a high power rear drive car, can create oversteer(instead of the inside wheel spining and the car losing drive traction, breaks rear traction completely by spining both wheels)

You are right but have it opposite, the Initial Torque is how freely it turns when its unlocked and how easy it is to lock, a lower # means it will turn less freely and be more locked, and the Accel and Brake settings are based off of this for accel and braking and have nothing to do with the lock when you are freewheeling.

Guy before you understands me too though, Having it set at a lower # (5) will make the outside tire spin and it at a higher # (60) will make it not lock up and cause inside tirespin only

 

[Z1-AV69]

The only reason the outside spins first is because it is at full lock and has all of the weight on it making it so the inside wheel is barely touching and cant really burn.

Are you sure you have locked and open right? From my understanding locked refers to both wheels getting the same torque (forced). Under turning the outside wheel can indeed never spin before the inside wheel if the LSD is locked. Simply because the outside wheel has to be faster to corner. The outside wheel will temporary lose traction because of the inside wheel pushing though.

The outside wheel spinning first can happen though if the LSD is open at that point. The reason is probably that the inner wheel will not lift off the ground in GT5.

 

[Will27]

You are right but have it opposite, the Initial Torque is how freely it turns when its unlocked and how easy it is to lock, a lower # means it will turn less freely and be more locked

Wouldn't this mean that the lower initial torque would create understeer? It seems to do the opposite in game

 

[Poppins]

You shouldnt really be able to notice any understeer with Rear Drive cars, Try it on a FWD or 4WD and you will see having it set at 5 in the front creates massive understeer problems, While having it at 60 will make life so much easier

I set my 4WD Cars up like this: 40/10/20 FRONT and 10/60/20 (Maybe 30 for brakes in the rear because I like to be able to slam the brakes into a corner and have the back end start sliding out due to being a bit locked up)

Only way to test LSD locking is on a straight stretch like a full on drag race on TGTT. Set it at 60/60/20 and 5/60/20 and you will see that the lower initial torque makes it lock up really hard and really fast where having it at 60 lets one tire spin by itself for a second before it locks the other one in, its even more pronounced when Accel Sens is lower. When the IT is higher you can also get on the throttle a lot harder out of corners due to not having the back end lock up and want to go squirrly on you.

 

[Will27]

Are you sure you have locked and open right? From my understanding locked refers to both wheels getting the same torque (forced). Under turning the outside wheel can indeed never spin before the inside wheel if the LSD is locked. Simply because the outside wheel has to be faster to corner.

The outside wheel spinning first can happen though if the LSD is open at that point. The reason is probably that the inner wheel will not lift off the ground in GT5.

Not if your accelerating. The torque with an open diff will always go to the inside wheel(unloaded) because its the path of least resistance. If the diff is open, in theory the outside wheel cant spin unless the diff has a setting that makes it tight to turn when open(not locked)

 

[Poppins]

Not if your accelerating. The torque with an open diff will always go to the inside wheel(unloaded) because its the path of least resistance. If the diff is open, in theory the outside wheel cant spin unless the diff has a setting that makes it tight to turn when open(not locked)

Yes you are right, if the diff is open it will ALWAYS be the inside tire as it is spinning the slowest and has the least weight and traction on it.

The reason the outside spins is because it locks the inside one up right away causing it to lose lateral traction and go sideways putting weight and pressure on the outside wheel. You need to be on a straight stretch to test the locking like I said already. But it should be easy enough to figure out that having Initial Torque set to 60 causes inside tire spin, which means the diff is open. Pretty simple logic for anyone who knows how it actually works.

 

[Z1-AV69]

Not if your accelerating. The torque with an open diff will always go to the inside wheel(unloaded) because its the path of least resistance.

In reality this might be true, but in game, you can corner so hard that in reality the inner wheel would lift off and so become the path of least resistance. In game the inside wheel will always keep some traction while the outside wheel can be so stressed from turning that it cannot take any more torque. I just surfed through all of Tokios R246 with only my outer rear wheel spinning.

 

[Will27]

Yes you are right, if the diff is open it will ALWAYS be the inside tire as it is spinning the slowest and has the least weight and traction on it.

The reason the outside spins is because it locks the inside one up right away causing it to lose lateral traction and go sideways putting weight and pressure on the outside wheel. You need to be on a straight stretch to test the locking like I said already. But it should be easy enough to figure out that having Initial Torque set to 60 causes inside tire spin, which means the diff is open. Pretty simple logic for anyone who knows how it actually works.

I know how it works, its just people seem to relate the settings differently in game. I learned most of this from my 10th scale rc touring car. I found 1 second in a ~15sec lap just by altering the rear diff(that 1 second being the difference from 9th to 2nd) The rear diff seemed to make the biggest change to the car handling. This is not represented properly in game in my opinion. Back to driving i think. Too much theory, not enough driving

 

[Poppins]

I agree with you, Im just gonna shut up because I know Im right and if you read the in game descriptions you can easily figure out how it works in game. Lower # like they even say causes it to lock faster but causes sudden changes in handling because of it locking in so hard, and having it high causes less traction to be retained (as is the case in an open diff compared to a locked diff <--- easy way to show im right right there) but will prevent sudden changes in handling. The accel and braking use the initial torque as a constant in their equations.

PS its not you im arguing with just other people who wont think about it for 5 seconds and see how dumb they are

 

[Will27]

PS its not you im arguing with just other people who wont think about it for 5 seconds and see how dumb they are

Hahaha thats sig material.

I dont agree with anyone in either thread 100%.
All I do to make my adjustments is think about the car behavior, what I would do in real life and make in-game adjustments match what Im after
Im going to do some more testing myself, but I dont expect to be making many changes to my current diff settings based on this thread and the other one, they go fine under my settings
Too stubborn I guess

 

[Poppins]

well i know for a fact that i get one tire fire when initial torque is set too high so all of my cars have it at 10 ish.

 

[Adrenaline]

well i know for a fact that i get one tire fire when initial torque is set too high so all of my cars have it at 10 ish.

Funny, since this morning at 8:04am you said this:

The best LSD you're probably going to get on average without fine tuning is more along the lines of 30/50/15 maybe 30/45/20~ somewhere around there

Link: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=148947&page=2

 

[Poppins]

Lol yes I know that because its true, you dont want it set too low or it will lock in really hard and make the back end go out too easily and you dont want it set too high or you will just get too much one tire fire.

I dont see what you find funny about that? Im saying the middle ground is the best for Initial Torque but I prefer it around 10 because I dont like any one tire fire and cant stand flooring it out of a corner and having only the inside tire spin.

Ive actually set a few of my cars to 30 for initial torque today to help aid with cornering because it isnt locked up as much around the corner. Im getting a bit of inside tire spin but having Accel Sens at max makes it almost unnoticable because even though it doesnt kick in as hard it kicks in right away.

Helping me a nice amount with cornering especially in the Speed 12.

 

[oopssorryy]

Wao! Imagine my surprise, I leave this thread for a couple hours and we get a lively discussion! Thank you Poppins, Z1-AV69, and Will27 for your thoughts. Seems as if things are heating up around here.

 

[itstheDRE4M]

Wao! Imagine my surprise, I leave this thread for a couple hours and we get a lively discussion! Thank you Poppins, Z1-AV69, and Will27 for your thoughts. Seems as if things are heating up around here.

Thanks for getting my thread closed POPPINS!

Go to bed.

 

[Poppins]

Nah I live in Canada eh so its not even 8 pm here yet.

And it really, really makes me happy to see your false information off this forum.

 

[itstheDRE4M]

Nah I live in Canada eh so its not even 8 pm here yet.

And it really, really makes me happy to see your false information off this forum.

So SCAFF's tuning guide needs to be OFF this forum.

I only reported my results. If what I reported was wrong.. the game is wrong.



5/5/5 gives inside tire burn. Slowest Lap times.

-----increasing initial torque provides traction by enhancing the values of accel/decel., limiting inside-tire-fire

60/5/5 less inside-tire-fire. Faster lap times by 0:01.200 seconds.

Explain the results poppins, you can't, results are results.

 

[oopssorryy]

Thanks for getting my thread closed POPPINS!

Go to bed.

Yeah I just saw that. I'm sorry bro, I really thought you were doing a good job. Thanks a lot for your research, and may I ask you to continue with it? I remember seeing somebody asking you to test Initial Torque with Accel and Decel at 30. They said it was to try to find a "sweet spot" if I remember right. This would be much appreciated.

@poppins Please respect others opinions. You posted what you believe Initial Torque does, now let others post what they believe. If you disagree with something someones posted do not outright tell them they are wrong. They obviously have reason to believe what they do, so hear them out. And if you do need to post on others ideas, try to be constructive instead of argumentative. Threads like these are needs to help explain what Initial Torque does, as it's name and description are a little on the vague side. I would prefer if this thread didn't get locked, as there are bound to be more people like me, who aren't 100% sure on what Initial Torque does.