Initial Torque: What do you do?

[itstheDRE4M]

Yeah I just saw that. I'm sorry bro, I really thought you were doing a good job. Thanks a lot for your research, and may I ask you to continue with it? I remember seeing somebody asking you to test Initial Torque with Accel and Decel at 30. They said it was to try to find a "sweet spot" if I remember right. This would be much appreciated

I tried 25/25/25 and ran 0:52.252 at best. My fastest times came from 40/45/10 and that was 0:52.091, so I figure now is when to start fine tuning.

I asked Poppins here numerous times to just leave my thread, never happened so good luck with getting respect out of him.

 

[oopssorryy]

Thanks for continuing with your research, I really do value your findings, as I'll be applying them to my tunes!

Poppins sent me a PM, he sent me his views on all of the LSD settings, and then said that he didn't want to post on this thread because it was driving him mad.

 

[itstheDRE4M]

Thanks for continuing with your research, I really do value your findings, as I'll be applying them to my tunes!

Poppins sent me a PM, he sent me his views on all of the LSD settings, and then said that he didn't want to post on this thread because it was driving him mad.

Good.

I'm on deep forest now testing MY theory on a Miata.

I ran 5/5/5 with a lap time of 1:26.020

I just increased Initial Torque to 60/5/5 and I ran a lap time of 1:24.296


You just don't find that much time. To me that PROVES 5 is Open and 60 is Locked. because a locked differential would provide more traction out of corners meaning a greater exit speed.

 

[Will27]

Agree^^
From my testing, the initial torque can make the LSD behave more like a free mechanical diff or a spool.

To put this in short form:

[SIZE="2"]
Initial Torque


5		Open diff(completely free to turn)
|
|		-Oversteer off power
|		-Understeer on power
|		-behaves erratically when transitioning between on/off power
|
|
|		Spool(both wheels locked together)
|		-Understeer off power 
|		-Oversteer on power with high power Rear dirve car
|		-Understeer on power with low power rear drive car
|		-As good as things will get with a FF car on power without yaw control:lol:
60		-Very stable when transitioning between on/off power
[/SIZE]

Note: A LSD cannot actually "lock" If yours does, its blown and welded itself into a spool from the heat
Have yet to figure where accel/brake sens. fit here, but my cars handle fine.

 

[oopssorryy]

I do have to agree with your results. Lol, you really did pick up tons of time with that diff... lets go with locked. Because I have seen nothing to prove you wrong I'm going to use your theories.

 

[oopssorryy]

Have yet to figure where accel/brake sens. fit here, but my cars handle fine.

This is what I can figure with Accel and Decel


Acceleration Sensitivity controls inside/outside tires slipping under Acceleration. This setting is only active when Accelerating. Tuning this setting has no effect on Oversteer or Understeer, just Tire Spin. Not sensitive enough and the inside wheel will spin more. To sensitive and the outside wheel wont let the inside wheel spin enough.


Deceleration Sensitivity controls the amount of brake engine is given to your tires. This setting is only Active when your are Deceleration, braking, or just slowing down in general . When set low there will be no added braking force, when set high you'll send more Engine brake to the tires. Warning, a high Deceleration Sensitivity will cause Understeer while braking, as you might lock up the tires under braking.

This is just from my experience. But lets please keep the conversation on Initial Torque for the time being lol.

 

[itstheDRE4M]

Note: A LSD cannot actually "lock" If yours does, its blown and welded itself into a spool from the heat
Have yet to figure where accel/brake sens. fit here, but my cars handle fine.

Wow.. I just ran a test with the Viper SRT10.

Initial at 20
Accel at 10
Decel at 5.

GO AND TRY THIS TEST YOURSELF!

Initial at 20
Accel at 10
Decel at 60!

Loads of Understeer with a lesser value! Which is ironic because isn't increasing Decel or any value of the LSD what gives you understeer. Not having a lesser value?

GO AND TRY THIS TEST YOURSELF! DON'T JUST TAKE MY WORD FOR IT.

Test!:

• Dead Stop.
• Turn Wheel either direction and HOLD IT all the way through.
• No Rev-Launching.
• Dead still.. then give it full throttle. (once again no REV-Launching)
• Remember NOT to move the wheel! Keep it cranked in one direction.

 

[Adrenaline]

well i know for a fact that i get one tire fire when initial torque is set too high so all of my cars have it at 10 ish.

Funny, since this morning at 8:04am you said this:

The best LSD you're probably going to get on average without fine tuning is more along the lines of 30/50/15 maybe 30/45/20~ somewhere around there

Link: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=148947&page=2

I dont see what you find funny about that?

Also today, at 4:07am - Link: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=179575#post4823867

I usually have my LSD at 5 Initial Torque and 60 Accel so it locks right away

Finding the humor yet?

 

[oopssorryy]

Hmmm, well that is certainly interesting. But it does make sense in a way. wWth a setting of 5 your not getting much engine brake, so you have to rely on your brakes alone. If your actual brakes are set too low then you will not be getting enough weight transfer to the Front wheels (thus creating Understeer). With Decel set at 60 you get more braking power, thus more weight transfer, which can lead to more responsive steering.

The problem is that if your brakes alone are capable to stop your car while giving you optimal weight transfer to the Front wheels, then a high Decel value will lock up your wheels and cause Understeer. I find that setting up your Brake Bias first will get you into your desired Steering/Braking power, then adjust your Decel values to finish dialing it in. This is just from my experience and logic, so I may yet be wrong.

 

[itstheDRE4M]

Hmmm, well that is certainly interesting. But it does make sense in a way. wWth a setting of 5 your not getting much engine brake, so you have to rely on your brakes alone. If your actual brakes are set too low then you will not be getting enough weight transfer to the Front wheels (thus creating Understeer). With Decel set at 60 you get more braking power, thus more weight transfer, which can lead to more responsive steering.

The problem is that if your brakes alone are capable to stop your car while giving you optimal weight transfer to the Front wheels, then a high Decel value will lock up your wheels and cause Understeer. I find that setting up your Brake Bias first will get you into your desired Steering/Braking power, then adjust your Decel values to finish dialing it in. This is just from my experience and logic, so I may yet be wrong.

There was no braking in that test. It was standing still.. then stomping the throttle with the wheels cranked in one direction.

 

[oopssorryy]

Oh....Well that makes what I said pretty much pointless lol. That raises some interesting questions. I'll have to take your advice and test this as soon as possible.

Edit: Wait I just had a thought. When you finally got the car to turn around in test two, did you feather the throttle, doing so would cause the diff to come into play, which might cause the weight transfer I was talking about in my previous post.

RE-EDIT: @itstheDRE4M Sorry if I've miss read something, it's been a looooong day.

 

[itstheDRE4M]

Oh....Well that makes what I said pretty much pointless lol. That raises some interesting questions. I'll have to take your advice and test this as soon as possible.

Edit: Wait I just had a thought. When you finally got the car to turn around in test two, did you feather the throttle, doing so would cause the diff to come into play, which might cause the weight transfer I was talking about in my previous post.

I just stomped on the throttle and didn't let up.

 

[oopssorryy]

Yeah I just re edited that post. It's been a long day and I think I'm not putting things together as well as a usually do. When you say full throttle I guess you mean Full Throttle!

Oh and FYI that Viper looks sick!

 

[Poppins]

Also today, at 4:07am - Link: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=179575#post4823867


Finding the humor yet?

No I really dont. Im saying that I like it at 10~ usually but 30 is probably better. And now Ive been using 25 as of today and I like it better so I really dont get your point.

 

[Poppins]

.

 

[nomis3613]

I've only skim read the last 2 pages, but it seems there's a fair bit of wrong info flying around about real-life operation. Lots of good info here: http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=22831&highlight=preload

(all this assumes GT5 uses clutch-pack LSDs, which I'm yet to test properly)

 

[Poppins]

look at my above post which tested purely initial torque and nothing else.

 

[Poppins]

updated again with further testing.

Ive also found out that 30 is about where it will spin both tires evenly, 60 will want to burn the outside tire and 5 the inside, I have my LSD set at 5/40/30 for every car now works perfect

 

[Z1-AV69]

With it at both 5/5/30 and 60/5/30 I was unable to get the tire to burnout on the Cement, only the one on the grass will.

This shows that the in game description is right, and Accel Sens is the only thing that affects how fast it locks. Initial torque is purely about how hard it kicks in.

Indeed is accel the only thing that affects how fast it locks. But initial is how fast it unlocks. In your example though the difference between wheels is always great enough to unlock.

Btw: It would help a lot if you could stop using too big font-sizes etc. Let your arguments speak. We are not talking about your mother or something, its just an technical argument. Let's keep it factual.

 

[Adrenaline]

MY CONCLUSION, is that Initial torque has nothing to do with how much lock their is, it really doesnt, but only how hard and sudden it locks in. Lower tends to make it slam into gears harder and give a lot more of that "push back in your seat" effect when you change a gear and higher makes things more smooth.

By my tests, the higher I set initial, the less traction I get (oversteer on exit, due to excessive tire spin). The lower I go, the more traction I get, but less forward bite (feels like it's not transferring as much torque to the rear wheels).

Regardless, by your theory, the lower setting of 5 should result in a 'harder' push forward, that would result in more tire spin, and the higher setting of 60 should be really smooth and not result much, if any, wheel spin.
And yet, my experiences are the exact opposite.
I Ran 50 laps on Trial Mountain, with a 600+hp Supra on racing softs, while keeping Accel/DeAccel the same, and slowly raising Initial from a start of 15, down to 10, 5, then up to 25, 40 and then 60.
The higher I went, the more wheel spin I got, the lower I went, the more it felt like the engine torque isn't being sent to the rear tires. I found the 'sweet spot' to be as high as you can set Initial, without breaking forward traction. But this is only based on Accel of 10, and deAccel of 5.

Either way it completely contradicts what you're experiencing... Thus the cycle continues.

 

[Poppins]

By my tests, the higher I set initial, the less traction I get (oversteer on exit, due to excessive tire spin). The lower I go, the more traction I get, but less forward bite (feels like it's not transferring as much torque to the rear wheels).

Regardless, by your theory, the lower setting of 5 should result in a 'harder' push forward, that would result in more tire spin, and the higher setting of 60 should be really smooth and not result much, if any, wheel spin.
And yet, my experiences are the exact opposite.
I Ran 50 laps on Trial Mountain, with a 600+hp Supra on racing softs, while keeping Accel/DeAccel the same, and slowly raising Initial from a start of 15, down to 10, 5, then up to 25, 40 and then 60.
The higher I went, the more wheel spin I got, the lower I went, the more it felt like the engine torque isn't being sent to the rear tires. I found the 'sweet spot' to be as high as you can set Initial, without breaking forward traction. But this is only based on Accel of 10, and deAccel of 5.

Either way it completely contradicts what you're experiencing... Thus the cycle continues.

It doesnt though, what you said is exactly what Im experiencing as well. The higher it is, the smoother it kicks in, and the lower it is the harder it kicks in.

Accel controls how sensitive it is to locking and you had it set fairly low, which causes inside tire spin, which is also why you were getting more tire spin with it at 60 compared to 5, its not kicking in as hard and putting less initial stress on the other wheel to get it spinning. If it is at 5 you are more likely to have it not spin as much because its preventing wheel speed difference. If you have the accel higher up where it locks faster say at 40 you will barely be able to tell the difference in traction between 5 and 60, because its high enough to the point where even if IT is set to 60 its going to lock up right away. but with lowest initial torque you can definately tell it kicks in a lot harder while changing gear full throttle.

IT is how much "slip" their is in the clutch in the diff and the sensitivities are how fast it locks.

 

[Adrenaline]

It doesnt though, what you said is exactly what Im experiencing as well. The higher it is, the smoother it kicks in, and the lower it is the harder it kicks in.

Accel controls how sensitive it is to locking and you had it set fairly low, which causes inside tire spin,

Nice try, but no. I have tuned my Accel to the point where the outside tire spins just slightly more than the inside, which helps the car rotate on center through exit of corners while under acceleration. If I drop down to 5-7 range, yes I get inside tire spin. As I start going past 15 I get too much outside tire spin. So again, no, my accel is not 'too low' to mask the effects of initial as you're trying to claim.

And your first statement is implying that the "smoother" the lsd kicks in, the more traction you lose. Care to rephrase?

 

[Poppins]

Well when it kicks in smooth it just takes a bit longer for the slower tire to reach the speed of the outer tire and when it kicks in hard it takes almost no time for the slow tire to reach the speed of the fast tire is how I think its working. So when I have it set low and shift from 3rd to 4th you can feel it "kick" harder because its like the clutch in the LSD is being dropped compared to let out nicely.

What you said before about having it at 60 causing less tire spin isnt what I said. But I see what you mean because when you let it out smooth you shouldnt spin and if you drop the clutch on a car you should light em up hard, but this isnt the case with the LSD because when it is being let out smooth one tire is spinning faster then the other one because the other one is taking a bit longer to spin the same speed as the fast tire, and when it is let out hard both tires hit the same speed right away causing a lot more traction under heavy acceleration.(In a straight line, around corners you will kick out hard)

Q: Are you saying that having Initial Torque at 60 and Accel at 10, you ARE getting inside tire spin or not. Because I am saying that yes, you should be getting more inside tire spin then at 5 and I completely agree with your previous statement with the fact that you should get less single wheel spin at 5 then you do at 60.

 

[BlueShift]

I have my LSD set at 5/40/30 for every car now works perfect

Every car have now the same LSD properties in your book ? Traction wheel have the same "wheelspan" and the same power on each car ? It's the same tires width for all cars ? Same tires, suspension and aero on each car ?

You were all for 30/15/x before, saying I'm a moron to disagree and completly dumb not to understand LSD, what happenned ?

 

[Poppins]

Every car have now the same LSD properties in your book ?

You were all for 30/15/x before, saying I'm a moron to disagree and completly dumb not to understand LSD, what happenned ?

Lol I've Never been for 30/15/x. Always like 10/60/20.

And the reason 5/40/30 perfect is because it kicks in right away while being on the bring of having inside tire spin, where the outside spins just a bit faster then the inside and is very good for corners especially under throttle because I like to be able to get the back end out easy if I want to but when I floor it out of tight corners it isnt a prone to spin like 5/60/20, as well as still letting me lock up hard and having some rear end movement while braking into a turn.

 

[BlueShift]

Lol I've Never been for 30/15/x. Always like 10/60/20.

Really ?

Try Initial Torque at 30 and Accel down at 15~?

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=148947&page=2#post4824725

The best LSD you're probably going to get on average without fine tuning is more along the lines of 30/50/15 maybe 30/45/20~ somewhere around there

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=148947&page=2#post4825118

having it 30/30 makes it not kick in as hard so you wont go out of control when it does as well as making it have a bit of an open diff

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=148947#post4802575

I'm not quoting you last year, this is you, yesterday and the day before.

Lol I've Never been (...) Always (...)

Yeah, lol indeed. Anyway...

MY CONCLUSION, is that Initial torque has nothing to do with how much lock their is, it really doesnt, but only how hard and sudden it locks in. Lower tends to make it slam into gears harder and give a lot more of that "push back in your seat" effect when you change a gear and higher makes things more smooth.

I say you're half rigth.

On Rear wheels only

Accel :
Lower values-----------------------------------------------Higher value
<--------------------------------------------------------------------->
Inside tire burns----------Both------------------------Outside tires burns ===> easy way to setup is donuting
Understeer----------------------------------------------------Oversteer
Locks fast---------------------------------------------------Locks slow
**** grip---------------Great grip----------------------------**** grip
--------------------You want to be here-------------------------------


Initial is a maxima aswell
Lower values----------------------------------------------------Higher value
<-------------------------------------------------------------------------->
Spinning wheel get not enough torque----Enough torque-------------Too much torque
Understeer---------------------------------------------------------Oversteer
Fast to unlock-------------------------------------------------Slow to unlock ===> this governs coasting steering.
**** grip---------------------------------Great grip----------------**** grip
smoothness-----------------------------appropriate-------------------violence
-----------------------------------You want to be here-----------------------

Your maxima may be 5 on the test car you choose, that don't make it an universal value.

There's no 100% working LSD on any FR car. It depends of a lot of factors : wheelspan, HP, susp, aero, tire width, tire quality, track quality, weigth of the car and a lot of others.

Each car have her "perfect grip" LSD, and each one is different.

 

[Disavowed]

This site has a good read on how real LSDs work.

http://www.ppi-ats.com/LSD/LSD_basics.html

You'll find info on initial torque at the bottom of the page.

 

[Slurm]

Overall, I just want to add that my personal tests have shown this:

Low numbers on GT5's sliders = a diff that is "tighter", more sensitive, responsive and restrictive to slip. Understeer at low speeds, inside wheel more likely to spin than the outside. 5 Feels like a fixed axle.

Higher numbers = a loose diff that is insensitive to slippage and will allow power to flow freely to whichever wheel is more prone to spinning - usually the outside rear. 60 Feels like a shopping trolley.

One question - why do low numbers promote inside spin and high numbers give outside spin?

 

[nomis3613]

...30/15/x...
...10/60/20...
...reason 5/40/30 perfect is...
...5/60/20...

Any talk of "universal" diff settings indicates greater of LSD tuning is required. There is no setting that works in every situation. (this applies to almost all settings, there is no such thing as a "magic number" for any tuning setting) Drivetrain layout, suspension settings, weight balance etc etc greatly affect the diff action that is needed.

Sure it's possible to tune the rest of the car around a diff setting, but the end result will be very compromised.

 

[Poppins]

Ive been playing for a while and have some really weird results that kind of contradict yours.

5/5/20 Causes inside spin while cornering.
60/5/20 Causes it to lock up and not inside spin while cornering.(like youve said all along)
5/30/20 Causes less inside spin and 5/60/20 acts pretty much the same as 60/5/20


So now things are just right messed for me >.> I guess Ill set my TVR to 30/60/20 or maybe 30/30/20 even, this just changed everything though...

so to me it seems like

5/60/20
60/5/20
30/30/20

are all literally the same and have no real differences that i can tell