Initial Torque: What do you do?

[Slurm]

Okay. I have come up with a conclusive way of testing, and thus proving myself wrong, which is upsetting, and confusing.

With one wheel on the grass, in the Zonda R, 60/60 is definitely a locked diff. Both wheels spin from launch in 3rd gear. With both wheels on tarmac, it can't spin it's tyres from launch. At 5/5 the grass side spins so freely that the engine can change up through the gears, whilst the tarmac side keeps traction. That's enough out of me for today.

 

[Poppins]

so 5/60/20 is going to have a 40% lock and send only 5% torque to the outside wheel when it does? because like i said on my tvr it drifts easily like that >.>

that would mean that 5/5/20 would have a 95% lock and only 5% torque which works out for inside spin, and 5/60/20 would have a 40% lock and only 5% torque which shows why you get inside spin a bit before the outside locks.

but now i remember my earlier test when i had one tire on the grass, and had accel at 5 for both tests but initial at 5/60 and both of them were unable to burn the tire on the cement which makes sense because there is 95% slip from accel sens, and when I set it to 60 accel sens it locks up even if there is only 5 for initial torque because it is only 40% slip.

so yeah you are right. accel sens controls tire slip percentage and initial torque controls percentage of energy transferred to other wheel. it was hard for me to figure out until i thought about the grass tests which show that your way makes sense and mine doesnt (40% slip on the grass should still burn out the 5% torque tire on cement) which it didnt for my test

very happy we got this all figured out.

 

[f_399]

just put the stock lsd back and be done with it

 

[Poppins]

i got it all figured out now

higher accel sens means easier to lock (5/5/20 will spin on grass only and 5/60/20 on cement as well)

higher initial torque means more torque transferred to slower tire when it does lock up to a maximum of 60% which like blueshift said is very dangerous because that is literally asking for huge weight transfer and snap oversteer.

 

[Poppins]

Personally Im going to go 40/60/20 for my TVR Speed 12

 

[oopssorryy]

So yeah you are right. Accel sens controls tire slip percentage and initial torque controls percentage of energy transferred to other wheel.

Very happy we got this all figured out.

I too am very happy with this explanation. This makes a lot of sense. When you, and Blueshift's experiments are all done I'm going to ask for the simple, boiled down version of what going on here. I'm very interested in all of your percentages, but I found it a very hard read. Could you perhaps post them like this?

Initial Torque-5: Allows a XX% of energy transfer to the inside wheel
Initial Torque-25: Allow a XX% of energy transfer to the inside wheel.

Accel Sens-5: Allows XX% of slippage difference between the drive wheels
Accel Sens-25: Allows XX% of slippage difference between the drive wheels

I would find this very helpful for my understanding.

 

[Poppins]

Initial Torque 5 allows 5% of total torque to be transferred to the outside, slower wheel when it locks

Initial Torque 60 allows 60% of total torque to be transferred to the outside, slower wheel when it locks

Accel Sens of 5 allows one wheel to spin up to 95% faster then the other wheel before it locks them both together

Accel Sens of 60 allows one wheel to spin up to 40% faster then the other wheel before it locks them both together


^^ Pretty much how Im seeing it.

 

[oopssorryy]

Thank you for that. That makes it a lot easier to understand. I think I'm finally starting to understand how Initial Torque works, and I'm learning a few things about Acceleration Sensitivity along the way!

 

[BlueShift]

We all agree ?

Now decel (j/king)

edit - for people willing to have clearer and better explanations (and official, how things worked really for GT4 LSD)
http://books.google.fr/books?id=WFF...t4 initial torque&pg=PA82#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.fr/books?id=WFF...t4 initial torque&pg=PA83#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

[Slurm]

No.. I don't agree, at all.

 

[itstheDRE4M]

Initial Torque 5 allows 5% of total torque to be transferred to the outside, slower wheel when it locks

Initial Torque 60 allows 60% of total torque to be transferred to the outside, slower wheel when it locks

Accel Sens of 5 allows one wheel to spin up to 95% faster then the other wheel before it locks them both together

Accel Sens of 60 allows one wheel to spin up to 40% faster then the other wheel before it locks them both together


^^ Pretty much how Im seeing it.

.... are you kidding me.. Last night you were gunho on the opposite.

On top of that you got my Thread closed.

Now you're saying 5 only provides 5% and 60 pushes 60%

GTFO dude! damn

What happened to 95% / 60% get out just GET OUT.

soorrryy, just ticks me off after all that junk last night you caused.

 

[oopssorryy]

.... are you kidding me.. Last night you were gunho on the opposite.

On top of that you got my Thread closed.

Now you're saying 5 only provides 5% and 60 pushes 60%

GTFO dude! damn

What happened to 95% / 60% get out just GET OUT.

soorrryy, just ticks me off after all that junk last night you caused.

I understand your anger, but lets stay positive and keep moving forward. We seem to be making real progress here, and there is no reason to ruin that with needless arguing. Lets let by gones be by gones and be done with it. Now if we do agree with what Initial Torque and Acceleration Sensitivity does and how it does it, I see no reason why Deceleration Sensitivity shouldn't be worked on, and figured out.

 

[itstheDRE4M]

I understand your anger, but lets stay positive and keep moving forward. We seem to be making real progress hear, and there is no reason to ruin that with needless arguing. Lets let by gones be by gones and be done with it. Now if we do agree with what Initial Torque and Acceleration Sensitivity does and how it does it, I see no reason why Deceleration Sensitivity shouldn't be worked on, and figured out.

It's stupid.

Anyway.

Higher Initial provides more of a LOCKED differential. A true life locked differential would have equal amount of power going to both outside and inside wheels!

Higher is closer to LOCK! for Christ sake.

Accel is the amount of lock under Accel.

Decel shouldn't be any different., but the problem is... with this test below.

Initial at 20
Accel at 10
Decel at 5.

GO AND TRY THIS TEST YOURSELF!

Initial at 20
Accel at 10
Decel at 60!

Loads of Understeer with a lesser value! Which is ironic because isn't increasing Decel or any value of the LSD what gives you understeer. Not having a lesser value?

GO AND TRY THIS TEST YOURSELF! DON'T JUST TAKE MY WORD FOR IT.

Test!:

• Dead Stop.
• Turn Wheel either direction and HOLD IT all the way through.
• No Rev-Launching.
• Dead still.. then give it full throttle. (once again no REV-Launching)
• Remember NOT to move the wheel! Keep it cranked in one direction.

 

[Motor City Hami]

I guess you're talking about FF and 4WD front initial.

How can you have understeer when by locking the diff you powerslides.
Powerslides is too much oversteer, not too few. Result is the same though : outside wall in your head.

Buy a FR or MR car and only add an LSD, nothing else. Tune the LSD the way I layed out in my garage "Motor City Tunes" and tell me again that the diff does not control understeer/oversteer. The LSD does what it says in the game. Programmers use an A to B programming logic. Move the lever one way something goes up... the other way, down. I don't buy into all of these long winded thoeries trying to link to how LSDs potentially work in the real world. By the way, have any of you had a real LSD torn apart to really understand how they work? I have. From a Detroit locker to a Mugen, to a clutch disc type to a torsion. They all work a little differently. GT5 is a game. You have to think like a programmer, not a real world car tuner.

 

[f_399]

which best simulates a locked differential? both wheels spinning at the same time

60/60?

 

[itstheDRE4M]

which best simulates a locked differential? both wheels spinning at the same time

60/60?

Probably.. Initial 40 - Accel 5.

I did testing of this last night and closes I could get to leaving both skid marks was something like 30 / 10

 

[Slurm]

It's stupid.

Anyway.

Higher Initial provides more of a LOCKED differential. A true life locked differential would have equal amount of power going to both outside and inside wheels!

Higher is closer to LOCK! for Christ sake.

Accel is the amount of lock under Accel.

Decel shouldn't be any different., but the problem is... with this test below.



GO AND TRY THIS TEST YOURSELF!


Loads of Understeer with a lesser value! Which is ironic because isn't increasing Decel or any value of the LSD what gives you understeer. Not having a lesser value?

This is exactly what confused me and led me to believe the values were inverted. Low values often seem to result in understeer and stability for me.

Also, this:

They all work a little differently. GT5 is a game. You have to think like a programmer, not a real world car tuner.

I really just believe that initial is the starting strength and accel/decel increase that strength with throttle/engine braking.

Also, from my grass tests, 60/60 is locked. The wheel on the grass will actually force the tarmac wheel into a spin when making a 3rd gear start.

 

[oopssorryy]

which best simulates a locked differential? both wheels spinning at the same time

60/60?

From looking at the percentages the Poppins released, I would say yes, a 60/60 would best simulate a locked differential, as both wheels are moving at nearly the same rate at all times.

 

[Poppins]

.... are you kidding me.. Last night you were gunho on the opposite.

On top of that you got my Thread closed.

Now you're saying 5 only provides 5% and 60 pushes 60%

GTFO dude! damn

What happened to 95% / 60% get out just GET OUT.

soorrryy, just ticks me off after all that junk last night you caused.

Im saying IT has nothing to do with how it locks but only to do with how much torque is sent to the locked wheel.

Which is why its not 95 and 60

whereas before all of the testing weve done in the last 12 hours straight i thought of it completely opposite, and only found out that you were right by inverting your results and having accel set to max instead of min like you had it.

sorry for all the confrontation from me everybody but im pretty sure this is how it works after trying to figure it out for the last day

 

[itstheDRE4M]

This is exactly what confused me and led me to believe the values were inverted. Low values often seem to result in understeer for me.

I just think it's the In Game Descripions.

 

[itstheDRE4M]

Im saying IT has nothing to do with how it locks but only to do with how much torque is sent to the locked wheel.

Which is why its not 95 and 60

whereas before all of the testing weve done in the last 12 hours straight i thought of it completely opposite, and only found out that you were right by inverting your results and having accel set to max instead of min like you had it.

sorry for all the confrontation from me everybody but im pretty sure this is how it works after trying to figure it out for the last day

weren't sayin that last night. My results were not flawed. Im done with this. Will be continuing testing and reposting the thread.

 

[Slurm]

I think you're right, but I had to do tests with one wheel on the grass to realise this. Whilst actually lapping a track, especially in powerful RWD cars, low settings seem to be much "safer". I guess I need to figure out why that is.

I believe it's because it's better to let more power be channeled through the inside-rear wheel. This lets the loaded outside rear axle slip, instead of forcing the wheel to spin. Notice how completely planted and stable the Camaro RM is at lower settings with it's inside rear blazing.

 

[Poppins]

But yet again you argue when it is already confirmed that the initial torque has nothing to do with how hard it is to lock the differential and only has to do with amount of torque transfer, you can see this by setting 5/5/20 and 60/5/20 and putting one tire on grass and dropping in in any gear, you will NOT be able to burn out with the tire on the cement because it isnt locking up at all whether initial torque is at 5 or 60.

Proof that the Accel Sens controls how much wheel spin occurs before lock is setting 5/60/20 and doing the same grass test, you will see that you WILL be able to burn the tire on the cement because the diff is locking up.

Proof also that high initial torque causes more power transfer to the opposite wheel is when its set at 60/60/20, and you launch on the grass, the car pulls a lot harder towards the grass because so much power is instantly transferred to the tire on cement with all the traction. If you set it at 5/60/20 It will still lock up but wont 'KICK IN' nearly as hard.(which is what i tried to explain how it felt to me before) And will be a lot more controllable keeping in a straight line while still keeping that one tire on the grass.

Now try and take a corner on cement with it set to 5/5/20 and 60/5/20 and you will see that you spin your inside tire with 5/5/20 and not with 60/5/20 because its getting 60% of torque transferred to it, and even having accel set at 5 will still make the diff lock up sometime (especially in a high power car like im using (speed 12) might be different for low power cars and not want to lock at all because of low accel im not sure) which shows that it is getting more torque transferred to it.

The Initial Torque is just how much power is transferred.

 

[Poppins]

weren't sayin that last night. My results were not flawed. Im done with this. Will be continuing testing and reposting the thread.

Yes I wasnt saying that last night because I thought of it completely differently and have since then figured out how it actually works. Where in your case, saying initial torque affects how "easy" it locks is false.

I think you're right, but I had to do tests with one wheel on the grass to realise this. Whilst actually lapping a track, especially in powerful RWD cars, low settings seem to be much "safer". I guess I need to figure out why that is.

Having Initial Torque set high causes a lot of power to be transferred to the other wheel when it locks causing cars to be very violent especially high powered RWD cars.

 

[Poppins]

. dblpst

 

[Scottster]

As I posted before, if you think in absolutes in regards to the LSD you will never figure it out.

Initial Torque and the Deceleration, control the rate the diff slips until it fully locks, or starts to unlock. From here on out I will just refer to the Initial Torque.

Some of you are confused why "5" (the lowest amt of resistance) and "60" as close to locked as possible in GT5, react the same.

"5" is the lowest setting, therefore it takes a very little amount torque to lock the clutches to achieve a full locked diff.

"60" is locked in a static state.

These same resistance settings apply for acceleration sensitivity as well.

for discussion sake only, (not a recommended setting). We have the LSD set at 20/45/15, we are also going to assume that our suspension set up is very solid for the vehicle (ie) not a factor in this example).

When we start to decelerate for a turn, if the car pushes (understeers) on corner entry, the diff is not unlocking quick enough. Therefore, the deceleration number (15) is too high, we need to adjust it down to 14 or below.

Now, at the apex of the turn, when we start to apply throttle once again, if the car has a tendency to push coming out, we need to decrease Initial torque (19 or below), to to eliminate some understeer.

Now the Acceleration sensitivity control just that... Acceleration. Upon exit of a turn, if the rear end wants to step out/ slide out on us, then we need to drop from 45 to say 43.
If at 43 upon exit of a turn, we hear the RPM's "Bouncing" and the rear end is remaining underneath the car, then now the diff is to loose, and we need to go to 44.

FYI changing Accel sensitivity may also cause the Initial, and deceleration to need some adjustments as well.

And lastly, not only is there not an lsd setting for every car, if you change the transmission gear in the same car, the LSD will need adjustments for that gear change as well.

Hope this helps.

 

[Poppins]

Starting to seem to me that IT doesnt even affect torque transfer and going back into the same hole of confusion all over again

I know that Acceleration Sens is how fast it locks up / how much tire spin difference there is, and I think that IT is just how it locks and unlocks.

So setting it low (at 5 preferably), kicks in fast and easy and kicks out fast and easy, but doesnt respond as fast and cause understeer because its still engaged while it tends to a bit when its at 60, although not that noticable unless I tried it in an AWD car. I like oversteer though. If you want understeer you can just turn it up.

 

[Scottster]

You dont want the help dont use it. Remain a lost little sheep.

 

[Poppins]

Haha its all good Im not a lost sheep I just know that initial torque doesnt affect how easy it locks but moreso how instant it kicks in.

 

[Slurm]

I think we need to forget about what we "know" lol, and discuss what seems to be the case.