Initial Torque: What do you do?
- Thread starter oopssorryy
- 361 comments
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- 1,139
- budious
That fits my current settings, I am at 94% and the test car at end of first lap, both outside tires are even shades of white warm, and both inside tires are still mostly dark blue, meaning very little to no slip has occurred.
So no sooner than I have this excellent LSD for my test car than I tried to apply it to the sibling test car; it has exact same setup in every way except for chassis reinforcement is installed on test car #2. Surprise, here the LSD configuration that worked so perfectly on the non-chassis reinforced version of the test car shows some minimal signs of wheel slippage. Interesting finding, seems a great many factors are at play, rigidity of the car being one of them. I shall attempt to adjust the LSD to compensate.
Back on test car #1 (non-chassis reinforced), I switch out the Sport Flywheel the LSD was configured on during setup with the Semi-Race Flywheel, now I am getting slippage again. Not that this is a problem, I had already proven the Sports Flywheel was faster on this car in previous testing anyways, but flywheel is also a factor. LSD settings work when they work and don't when they don't... but I don't have a more scientific explanation for it at the moment.
you say you are at 94% which would mean that you have an initial torque / accel setting of 6 (not sure which one you mean?) which would cause it to not lock up as much, if you set it to say 30 or so it will need only 70% torque to lock up (for initial torque)
If accel sens is high enough on a high powered car you are going to get full lock either way though I find. Whether Initial Torque is at 5 or 60 both will lock. 60 is just a lot more violent.
like we said though each car is different, my tvr speed 12 with its 1027 HP is going to lock up pretty much no matter what unless its set very loose like 5/5/5
Wow! 10 pages...
Well guys, I've raced for over 15 years and driven high performance tuned cars for over 20 years. What I can say for sure is that the LSD in GT5 works nothing like a LSD in real life. No way in real life will you leave a skid mark on the outside wheel only. Even a fully locked diff will distribute power 50/50 to each wheel resulting in dual skid marks. The only kind of LSD that can vary the torque sent to each wheel is a computer controlled diff. The simplest example would be the one in the Mitsubishi EVO (also known as AYC) and the more complex example would be the one in the Ferrari 458 Italia. That being said, you still won't see those cars smoking it's outside rear tire during cornering.
Now that we've got reality out of the way, back to GT5. Oh, and before I start, remember this: Power is nothing without control. Why? I'll get to that in a moment. I used to tune my cars with extremely high initial torque and acceleration. This really helped on cars with extreme horsepower figures like the FGT, Ford GT Spec II (fully modded), Audi R10 TDI, etc. Yes, you can now get on the throttle much earlier and they aren't as touchy but they were hard to control once you went into power oversteer. In layman's terms, high initial torque and acceleration resulted in better traction coming out of corners but a very unforgiving car to drive. There had to be a better solution.
After hours upon hours of running around the track in the Audi R10 TDI (very well known for it's propensity to power oversteer into a terminal spin), I found that a 6/6/20 LSD figure was the most controllable. Breakaway was a lot more controllable and the deceleration of 20 killed most of that tendency to auto turn while braking. With other cars like the FGT, Toyota GT-One, Nissan R92CP, etc., I also started using these lower values with some pretty good results. So how do you know what values to use? Well, just run around the track being very aggressive with the throttle then go back and watch the replay. Reset your LSD and suspension to it's default values. If your outside drive wheel turns red before the inside wheel then lower your acceleration value and vice versa. Once you have both tires turning red together on power oversteer then leave it. With Initial Torque, adjust in increments of 2 at a time. Some cars will understeer more with lower values and some will steer better. I usually start with the baseline of 10. After you're done with that, then go and tune the suspension to your liking and tweak your LSD some more (in increments of 1).
Just remember one thing: You will never be able to just mash the throttle on corner exit and expect the traction to hold no matter what LSD settings you use. Some people have told me that I lose some forward traction coming out of corners. I don't care; refer to my first bold print above. You'll be more consistent in a car that is easier to control than in one that has max exit traction but which will bite you the first mistake you make.
In the end, it's all about the driving feel. Why do you think you have people bickering over the settings all the time? Because what works for one driver will not necessarily work for another. What we lack in GT5 is "seat of the pants" feel. It's extremely hard to setup a car without that kind of feel.
Just my 2 cents...
Well guys, I've raced for over 15 years and driven high performance tuned cars for over 20 years. What I can say for sure is that the LSD in GT5 works nothing like a LSD in real life. No way in real life will you leave a skid mark on the outside wheel only. Even a fully locked diff will distribute power 50/50 to each wheel resulting in dual skid marks. The only kind of LSD that can vary the torque sent to each wheel is a computer controlled diff. The simplest example would be the one in the Mitsubishi EVO (also known as AYC) and the more complex example would be the one in the Ferrari 458 Italia. That being said, you still won't see those cars smoking it's outside rear tire during cornering.
Now that we've got reality out of the way, back to GT5. Oh, and before I start, remember this: Power is nothing without control. Why? I'll get to that in a moment. I used to tune my cars with extremely high initial torque and acceleration. This really helped on cars with extreme horsepower figures like the FGT, Ford GT Spec II (fully modded), Audi R10 TDI, etc. Yes, you can now get on the throttle much earlier and they aren't as touchy but they were hard to control once you went into power oversteer. In layman's terms, high initial torque and acceleration resulted in better traction coming out of corners but a very unforgiving car to drive. There had to be a better solution.
After hours upon hours of running around the track in the Audi R10 TDI (very well known for it's propensity to power oversteer into a terminal spin), I found that a 6/6/20 LSD figure was the most controllable. Breakaway was a lot more controllable and the deceleration of 20 killed most of that tendency to auto turn while braking. With other cars like the FGT, Toyota GT-One, Nissan R92CP, etc., I also started using these lower values with some pretty good results. So how do you know what values to use? Well, just run around the track being very aggressive with the throttle then go back and watch the replay. Reset your LSD and suspension to it's default values. If your outside drive wheel turns red before the inside wheel then lower your acceleration value and vice versa. Once you have both tires turning red together on power oversteer then leave it. With Initial Torque, adjust in increments of 2 at a time. Some cars will understeer more with lower values and some will steer better. I usually start with the baseline of 10. After you're done with that, then go and tune the suspension to your liking and tweak your LSD some more (in increments of 1).
Just remember one thing: You will never be able to just mash the throttle on corner exit and expect the traction to hold no matter what LSD settings you use. Some people have told me that I lose some forward traction coming out of corners. I don't care; refer to my first bold print above. You'll be more consistent in a car that is easier to control than in one that has max exit traction but which will bite you the first mistake you make.
In the end, it's all about the driving feel. Why do you think you have people bickering over the settings all the time? Because what works for one driver will not necessarily work for another. What we lack in GT5 is "seat of the pants" feel. It's extremely hard to setup a car without that kind of feel.
Just my 2 cents...
- 3
- The_GeneralSo
From my own experience with LSD -
GT5 can simulate the effects of oversteer and understeer based on the amount of weight the car has, the HP, the suspension setup, and the tire compound used.
Simply speaking about the LSD, you set it so that you correct oversteer during cornering hard and understeer during braking into a corner hard.
Now how this LSD setting effects the car DEPENDS ON THE DRIVER. If you late brake into corners and love to floor it before exiting the apex, you set the LSD based on how you drive.
The initial torque is simply used to trigger the effect. For example, if you accelerate really hard (full throttle) out of a corner and your car is extremely high HP, you would want a HIGH ACCEL LSD SETTING - this is so the car will not oversteer when floored. The initial torque tells sets how quickly the response is - so if you have a high initial torque value, the car will most likely UNDERSTEER - even if you have a low ACCEL LSD setting.
If you set the ACCEL LSD setting to a low setting, you will oversteer very easily. If you set the DECEL LSD setting to a HIGH setting, whenever you BRAKE into a corner, your car will UNDERSTEER. And any light braking could understeer easily. If you set the DECEL LSD setting to a low number, it will easily OVERSTEER AND LOSE CONTROL when you brake into a corner (it can be a soft brake as well if the setting is low).
So all you have to remember is that if your driving style is all out oversteer when exiting corners, simply set the ACCEL LSD to a LOW value. If you love to brake hard late into a corner and want more control (if you prefer more understeer than oversteer), simply set the DECEL setting to a HIGH number. But remember the initial torque shouldn't be too LOW because if it is, then it basically causes the effects to kick in real soon. An example would be if you set the initial torque to be a high value, you will not be able to utilize the ACCEL LSD setting as quickly than if the torque value was at a lower value. Same thing goes for DECEL.
I would recommend a value of about 10 to 25 for initial torque - but that's my number for 500HP cars. ACCEL and DECEL LSD settings depend on your style of driving and how you prefer oversteer to understeer. When I brake into a corner, I prefer MORE OVERSTEER - so I can slide into a corner then power out of the apex quicker. So my DECEL LSD VALUE would be a LOW number - something between 18-22.
I like this game because it's just a simulator and quite often, it works pretty well - you just have to pick the type of car and I found out that if your car has undergone a weight reduction, the LSD isn't as effective! I would recommend stock weight - maybe a few windows/carbon fibre hood reductions but nothing drastic because your high HP car would be so powerful the LSD has really no fix for the oversteer/understeer problems. I would suggest a full suspension overhaul tweaking that part first...then going on to the LSD and testing the results.
My experiences is done thru trial and error many many many times with one car I like testing over and over on a high corner number track. I take the lap times and compare with each LSD tweak.
PS - the game is as realistic as it can be - there are just way too many variables to account for and seeking the perfect driving simulator is not possible even with advanced hardware - you might as well build a car and do actual testing on it - which manufacturers do greatly! My point is that take the game as a fun game and it doesn't have to be super precise - just good enough to provide some solid tweak in handling. No matter what mathematics can calculate on paper, it's exactly just that - it's in theory; Just cause it looks good on paper doesn't mean it's good in real life. This goes for cars!
GT5 can simulate the effects of oversteer and understeer based on the amount of weight the car has, the HP, the suspension setup, and the tire compound used.
Simply speaking about the LSD, you set it so that you correct oversteer during cornering hard and understeer during braking into a corner hard.
Now how this LSD setting effects the car DEPENDS ON THE DRIVER. If you late brake into corners and love to floor it before exiting the apex, you set the LSD based on how you drive.
The initial torque is simply used to trigger the effect. For example, if you accelerate really hard (full throttle) out of a corner and your car is extremely high HP, you would want a HIGH ACCEL LSD SETTING - this is so the car will not oversteer when floored. The initial torque tells sets how quickly the response is - so if you have a high initial torque value, the car will most likely UNDERSTEER - even if you have a low ACCEL LSD setting.
If you set the ACCEL LSD setting to a low setting, you will oversteer very easily. If you set the DECEL LSD setting to a HIGH setting, whenever you BRAKE into a corner, your car will UNDERSTEER. And any light braking could understeer easily. If you set the DECEL LSD setting to a low number, it will easily OVERSTEER AND LOSE CONTROL when you brake into a corner (it can be a soft brake as well if the setting is low).
So all you have to remember is that if your driving style is all out oversteer when exiting corners, simply set the ACCEL LSD to a LOW value. If you love to brake hard late into a corner and want more control (if you prefer more understeer than oversteer), simply set the DECEL setting to a HIGH number. But remember the initial torque shouldn't be too LOW because if it is, then it basically causes the effects to kick in real soon. An example would be if you set the initial torque to be a high value, you will not be able to utilize the ACCEL LSD setting as quickly than if the torque value was at a lower value. Same thing goes for DECEL.
I would recommend a value of about 10 to 25 for initial torque - but that's my number for 500HP cars. ACCEL and DECEL LSD settings depend on your style of driving and how you prefer oversteer to understeer. When I brake into a corner, I prefer MORE OVERSTEER - so I can slide into a corner then power out of the apex quicker. So my DECEL LSD VALUE would be a LOW number - something between 18-22.
I like this game because it's just a simulator and quite often, it works pretty well - you just have to pick the type of car and I found out that if your car has undergone a weight reduction, the LSD isn't as effective! I would recommend stock weight - maybe a few windows/carbon fibre hood reductions but nothing drastic because your high HP car would be so powerful the LSD has really no fix for the oversteer/understeer problems. I would suggest a full suspension overhaul tweaking that part first...then going on to the LSD and testing the results.
My experiences is done thru trial and error many many many times with one car I like testing over and over on a high corner number track. I take the lap times and compare with each LSD tweak.
PS - the game is as realistic as it can be - there are just way too many variables to account for and seeking the perfect driving simulator is not possible even with advanced hardware - you might as well build a car and do actual testing on it - which manufacturers do greatly! My point is that take the game as a fun game and it doesn't have to be super precise - just good enough to provide some solid tweak in handling. No matter what mathematics can calculate on paper, it's exactly just that - it's in theory; Just cause it looks good on paper doesn't mean it's good in real life. This goes for cars!
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Rotary Junkie
Premium
- 9,810
- Canton, MI
- RJs_RX-7
@Disavowed: Agree 100% with the use of extremely low initial + accel values to keep the rear of a car in check. Technically, a high accel setting will be the fastest in theory... But in practice it will have an extremely sudden snap into oversteer once you get wheelspin.
Minimum strength diffs will indeed have more wheelspin... But in those cases where you CANNOT cure the wheelspin... You need to make it as unobtrusive as possible.
Minimum strength diffs will indeed have more wheelspin... But in those cases where you CANNOT cure the wheelspin... You need to make it as unobtrusive as possible.
- 1,139
- budious
I was arriving at 94% by counting backwards cumulatively for the combined initial and acceleration. I was running Initial @ 46 / Acceleration @ 60 and it was quite nice, no understeer. 100-46=54 w/ 100-60=40; 54&40=94%
In fact it ran so good I set a new lap record for the test car almost .500th second faster than previous record.
nomis3613
Premium
- 831
+1
Agree with the rest of Disavowed's post too. Thanks for sharing your method of LSD tuning.
- 1,175
Great post, and this has been on the tip of my tongue for ages. Basically exactly what I wanted to say before, but without the inverted scales madness.
All of the high powered RWD cars I've tuned have ended up with very low initial and accel, after constant testing. I found outside spin such a problem, that it actually led me to believe the values were backwards, until I did some tests and then realised that the game's physics at this point are just different from the real world.
There is some weird dynamic with GT'5's cars to do with load on the outside tyre vs. power coming through the drivetrain.
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- 1,139
- budious
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_slip_differential
http://wikicars.org/en/Limited_slip_differential
This makes sense considering GT4 had 1-way, 1.5-way, and 2-way differentials in the drivetrain upgrade options over the customizable limited slip.
The numbers may have no more significance than to represent the density of the packed plates inside the differential.
Initial: |-l-l-l-l-l-l-l-l-l-l-l-l-l-l-l-| lsd(x) = 15
Acceleration: |-l-l-l-l-lllllllllllllll-l-l-l-| lsd(x) = 22
Deceleration: |-l-l-l-l-l-lllllllll-l-l-l-l-l-| lsd(x) = 20
The initial is a density of 15, when the cam moves for acceleration, the plates are compressed to a density of 22; when the cam moves for deceleration, the plates are compressed to a density of 20. The closer you can keep these values, the less the cam has to compress the differential, and the smoother it functions. This is my theory, but I don't think they have anything at all to do with the rotational difference or torque percentages; it's just simply a measure of the LSD's friction by plate density.
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- 1,175
Budious, the thing is the game code isn't simulating every little shim and gear inside a differential. It's just using some formula to calculate things, and as far as I can see, we need to just forget about real life LSD mechanics if we want to find out what's happening in this game.
Most high powered RWD cars in this game have severe problems with outside-rear wheelspin when turning, which is best addressed with an open diff. That couldn't be more backwards to real-life.
Most high powered RWD cars in this game have severe problems with outside-rear wheelspin when turning, which is best addressed with an open diff. That couldn't be more backwards to real-life.
- 1,139
- budious
If you had read what I just said, and my couple of recent posts above this, I was trying to explain that the greater the variation between initial and acceleration the more understeer occurs, the closer you can bring the two numbers the less understeer occurs. If you look up I just got done explaining how I had come about a rather clean handling and fast LSD setup using an Initial of 46 and an Acceleration of 60.
Here is proof, drives like butter if you spec it exactly as below:
[P] Lotus Elise 111R '04 (non-RM)
Spec III (LSD Testing)
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319HP
759KG
--------------
GT Auto
------
+ Front Aero
+ Extension Aero
+ Rear Aero
------
+ Wheels - ADVAN RGII (as pictured above)
+ Wheel Paint Job w/ TVR's Reflex Purple
------
Tune Shop
--------------
+ Weight Reduction 3
+ Window Modification
+ Carbon Hood (painted as pictured above)
!! No Chassis Reinforcement (LSD is not 100% tuned for that if you do)
------
+ ECU
+ Race Air Filter
+ Sport Catalytic Converter
+ Engine Tune 3
+ Sport Intake Manifold
+ Sport Exhaust Manifold
+ Titanium Racing Exhaust
+ High-Rpm Turbo
------
* Stock Transmission
------
+ Single Plate Clutch
+ Sports Flywheel
+ Customized Limited Slip Differential (tuning is for 319HP, no chassis reinforcement, sports flywheel only)
@ Initial: 46
@ Acceleration: 60
@ Deceleration: 46
------
+ Fully Customized Suspension
@ Ride Height: 0 F / 0 R
@ Spring Rate: 4.8 F / 7.2 R
@ Damper Ext: 7 F / 7 R
@ Damper Cm: 7 F/ 7 R
@ Anti-Roll Bar: 4 F / 4 R
@ Camber: 0.0 F / 0.0 R
@ Toe Angle: 0.00 F / 0.00 R
------
* Brake Controller @ 5 F / 5 R
+ Race Soft (or whatever...)
* Aero @ 0 F / 20 R
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- 1,175
Ok sorry.. values close to each other are more predictable - that's a valid observation and probably true. But every time I've tested cars where the differential is critical to the handling, (huge wheelspin problems) I could never go anywhere near that high and call it predictable or clean. But yeah, a lot of this is personal. I'm glad it's different for everyone - it would be boring if we just figured out "the best" setting. It makes GT a great and interesting game, even if it's not 100% true to reality.
What I was saying is that the practical function of the drivetrain and differential vs grip in this game seems very different to reality.
What I was saying is that the practical function of the drivetrain and differential vs grip in this game seems very different to reality.
- 1,139
- budious
I didn't say it was entirely predictable, move the initial down to 45 or up to 47 and it loses sync, leave initial at 46 and move deceleration up to 48, it loses sync; however, for the very specific specs I have laid out, 46/60/46 handles like a dream in this scenario. Don't expect it to be easily reproducible without considerable effort. This handles considerably worse on my dupe of this car that does feature chassis reinforcement; switch the sports flywheel to semi-race and it's like you never tuned the LSD to begin with. Lots of factors at play...
Race Softs for testing, but I ran 7 consecutive laps on Deep Forest all between 1:12.8 and 1:13.5 with 46/60/46...
Race Softs for testing, but I ran 7 consecutive laps on Deep Forest all between 1:12.8 and 1:13.5 with 46/60/46...
- 863
- oops_sorryy
Wow this thread is more than I had hoped for, but in a good way! Thank you Disavowed and The_GerneralSo for joining this conversation. And a big thank you to Budious,
nomis3613, Poppins, Slurm, itsaDRE4M, Will27, and Rotary Junkie for keeping this thread alive, and with a constaint stream of new information.
nomis3613, Poppins, Slurm, itsaDRE4M, Will27, and Rotary Junkie for keeping this thread alive, and with a constaint stream of new information.
that is a good setting. if by my #'s it would mean it needs 54% of torque to one wheel before it kicks the other one in and when it does lock it locks them together 60%
id think that if you lowered decel down to 20 though it would help a bit for cornering, maybe not in that lotus though because it is pretty tail happy so some more lock on braking to keep it straight might be good.
- 1,175
Okay, I will try your set up later. I'm interested in this very precise syncing you talk about.
Most of my testing has been with much more powerful cars, and much more realistic tyres. Using tyres made of glue in a super-lightweight 300hp car is a completely different game to a McLaren F1 on sports.
Most of my testing has been with much more powerful cars, and much more realistic tyres. Using tyres made of glue in a super-lightweight 300hp car is a completely different game to a McLaren F1 on sports.
Ive also found that higher powered cars need higher settings because it just has so much power.
But Im still going with the fact that a High Accel Setting makes it lock up more which in turn causes more throttle oversteer.
the inverse thing also seems correct if you are using % like i think it is.
low initial torque (5) makes it harder to lock (needs 95% of torque to one wheel to lock) and high initial torque (60) makes it lock easier (needs 40% of torque to one wheel to lock) -------> this is why setting it too high causes understeer, wheels lock together too easily (you dont have to be accel or decel for it to lock, just needs certain amount of energy put into it)
low accel sens (5) makes it not lock up much at all (5% lock, 95% slip) while high accel sens (60) makes it lock up a lot more (60% lock, 40% slip) -------> this is why you need to try find the best # where it lets the outside tire spin the same speed, not slower, and 40% lock (stock) really isnt that much anyways so setting it to maximum is the best you are going to get the outside tire to a faster speed around a corner.
thats the only reason i was saying INVERSE
is because 5 for initial torque makes it need 95% to lock meaning it needs the most
so less is more. for all three.
But Im still going with the fact that a High Accel Setting makes it lock up more which in turn causes more throttle oversteer.
the inverse thing also seems correct if you are using % like i think it is.
low initial torque (5) makes it harder to lock (needs 95% of torque to one wheel to lock) and high initial torque (60) makes it lock easier (needs 40% of torque to one wheel to lock) -------> this is why setting it too high causes understeer, wheels lock together too easily (you dont have to be accel or decel for it to lock, just needs certain amount of energy put into it)
low accel sens (5) makes it not lock up much at all (5% lock, 95% slip) while high accel sens (60) makes it lock up a lot more (60% lock, 40% slip) -------> this is why you need to try find the best # where it lets the outside tire spin the same speed, not slower, and 40% lock (stock) really isnt that much anyways so setting it to maximum is the best you are going to get the outside tire to a faster speed around a corner.
thats the only reason i was saying INVERSE
is because 5 for initial torque makes it need 95% to lock meaning it needs the most
so less is more. for all three.
- 863
- oops_sorryy
Thats a really interseting way to look at it. Interseting in that it makes great sense, I'll have to try this out....
- 376
- Nürburgring
- lukasspeed
Sry, but I cannot agree to this. I just took your Elise on sport softs to Nürburgring GP/F. With 46/60/46 there is a lot of understeer (and this track tends to mask understeer) while with 8/30/15 (my "default" for MR, all else like you specified) there is no understeer. Imho higher values always give more understeer.
- 1,139
- budious
Try a less grippier tire, also be patient until all the tires warm, since there is no slip the one that does the least cornering takes a while to warm up, until then, there will be more understeer. Drive to counter understeer with power oversteer, it's how the car was setup before I put this LSD setup on it anyways. It has significantly less understeer than other combinations in the high range, just steer into the direction you want to go and give it throttle, it will follow where you point the nose. It was more of a case study in high efficiency slip reduction with the LSD, don't get all grouchy cause I didn't test it on your favorite track.
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- 376
- Nürburgring
- lukasspeed
Sry if I did sound "grouchy" (nice word to learn), I just wanted to disagree.
I gave it a few laps to warm up, it stays the same. I know it's a case study and I choose that track because I have some experience with the Elise there. What you're saying about using power oversteer is true though. Higher initial can help with that.
- 1,139
- budious
Add some camber to the front if you need to, that should also help. It's generally my deep forest test car so I didn't really tune any part of the suspension to Nurburging GP. You'll find with the high initial and high deceleration you can push the steering as far as it goes without losing too much control as you would oversteer yourself off the course with the generic LSD setup. Balancing out that rolling turn radius can be done on lower settings, I just picked the most extreme combination I found to work to prove it did. This wasn't actually the fastest combination for the LSD I found yet, this was just the most extreme.
- 1,175
I may still try your set-up Budious, but I find it hard to take your test and findings seriously. I don't mean that to sound harsh or mean, but it's just completely subjective and personal. Sometimes I swear I am onto the same thing, and when I go back to the car in a few days I can't feel any difference when I completely change everything.
If you think you've found a magic setting that is perfect compared to 1 click different, I really don't think anyone will be able to jump in that car and agree with you.
If you think you've found a magic setting that is perfect compared to 1 click different, I really don't think anyone will be able to jump in that car and agree with you.
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- 1,139
- budious
Fair enough, I was only testing at Deep Forest, the allowed turn radius fit my corner entry patten and driving line. It works for me, there is a difference with small increments away in either initial or braking. I'm used to the handling on the car, however, one thing that should be noticeable at any rate of speed is the fact the LSD works. You can just stop anywhere you want, hold the e-brake, rev it up, dump the clutch and burn out and go through a corner. You'll find slippage is at an absolute minimum.
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