Is Gran Turismo dying in America?

[Jay]

I'll take a Gran Torino over a Mustang anyday!

 

[Earth]

By the way, I know quite a few in the US want to see NASCAR included in some way to GT5, but I can't imagine anything more boring...

Yesterday's Spanish Grand Prix?

 

[Sniffs]

i don't see why mOpar guys, Ford Guys, and chevy guys are all mad at each other, especially in a day and age where the American automotive market my disappear into oblivion ! i would LOVE to see my first car in its equivelant P77 get shoved in (all it is is a Fox sedan, after all). and, for pete's sake, stop arguing about the internals of the US automotive manufacturers, cause they may disappear entirely!

 

[TofuStoreDrift]

i don't see why mOpar guys, Ford Guys, and chevy guys are all mad at each other, especially in a day and age where the American automotive market my disappear into oblivion ! i would LOVE to see my first car in its equivelant P77 get shoved in (all it is is a Fox sedan, after all). and, for pete's sake, stop arguing about the internals of the US automotive manufacturers, cause they may disappear entirely!

We weren't really arguing, just playing up the playful banter of the Big Three rivalry.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

You have a good point. Ford really didn't have iconic muscle cars. Sure, they had the Boss, but Mopar had 'Cudas, Challengers, Chargers, and Dusters, any which one I'd be happy to have in my driveway. Now that this thread is firmly off-topic, I'll shut up.

Off topic or not, I am compelled to reply on this one.
No iconic muscle cars????
How about 67-68 390GT Mustangs? You know in the movie "Bullitt".
Or 65-70 Shelby Mustangs? You know one was in the movie "Gone in 60 seconds". (These were Ford built and powered)
How about 66-67 390GT Fairlanes, or 69 428 CobraJet and SuperCobraJet Mustangs, or 68-69 428 Torino Cobras or 70-71 429 Torino Cobras.
On the Mercury side there was 69-70 428 Cougar Eliminator (this is the Cougar that should have been in GT4) and 68-71 428 Cyclones.

These were in addition to the BOSS Mustangs of which the least known, the 71 351 was the fastest. 1/4 mile times off the showroom floor were Mid to high 13's.

Although pretty rare, there were a few 406/427 63-65 Galaxies around. Even that lead sled was quite formidable with a 427.

Take it from a Ford Fan who was there back in the day,( I turned 16 and got my drivers permit in the spring of 69) they may be lesser known now but they were known then. I was fortunate enough to have ridden in many and drove a few of the muscle cars of that time. I had two Mustangs, one of which was a borderline Muscle car.
I will agree the 440 "six pack" Cudas and Challenger R/T's are about iconic as it gets. The Duster wasn't much of a Muscle car without some modifications.
BTW all the muscle cars with the exception of the Corvettes and the early Shelby Mustangs were pretty much "stoplight to stoplight" or drag cars. None were particularly known for there handling and cornering ability.

Now that I've commented "off topic" I feel obligated to say something on.

I don't think its dying, but it has diminshed I believe for the following reasons;

The competition from ever increasing quantity of games in all genres.

Increase in the depth and sophistication, or simulation in the case of GT4, within the racing genre. This tends to weed out the casual or arcade gamer.
It can also hook a racing gamer into another racing game such as Forza2.
Having played Forza2, there is a considerable time investment in practicing and experimentation of setups to be and stay competitive with the primarily "on line" focus of the game. The more invested the more reluctant you are to switch to another game and start all over again especially after you have established relationships in clubs or a regular on line group of racers.

This brings me to my biggest concern with GT5. It's rumored the Aspec point feature will not be in the game. The Aspec feature is what creates the depth and focus of competition with the AI which I still prefer as the primary focus of the game. However this seems to be progressively diminishing from all games with the proliferation of the "on line" play feature. However this is where the "MONEY" is and GT5 may follow the trend.

Last, with regaurd to sales of GT5 (if it's ever released) with the current economic situation and the steep increase in the cost of console gaming I believe it will sell less than GT4.

 

[Sniffs]

SCJ: well, a lot of what you list aren't "considered" Muscle cars in the truest sense. basically, it's the Mustang and Cougar and that's it, although I'd make an argument for the "baby Birds"
oh, btw, us "casual gamers" are the ones who keep the industry alive, remembering the great video game crash of 1983 and trying to prevent a "suck-pile" from happening yet again.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

SCJ: well, a lot of what you list aren't "considered" Muscle cars in the truest sense. basically, it's the Mustang and Cougar and that's it, although I'd make an argument for the "baby Birds"
oh, btw, us "casual gamers" are the ones who keep the industry alive, remembering the great video game crash of 1983 and trying to prevent a "suck-pile" from happening yet again.

In the truest sense of reality a "Muscle Car" is a small, pony, or intermediate size car (of that era) with a "Big Block" V8.
This is why I referred to the "440" Cudas and Challengers. Also why I did not consider the "Duster" a muscle car. It did not come with a 440, Chryslers Big Block engine.
The 428/429 Torino Cobras and Mercury Cyclones (intermediate cars) were Ford's direct build competition to the 396/454 SS Chevelles, 389/400 Pontiac GTO's, 400/455 Olds 442, 440 Charger R/T, and 440 Plymouth GTX (also intermediate cars).

According to your reasoning, these aren't Muscle cars either???? Please advise.

I assume if you are a member of GT Planet, then you are a Gran Turismo series enthusiast. Consequently, to be counted among the "Racing Gamers" as opposed to the "Casual Gamers".
BTW I didn't know they had video games in 83. Thanks for the info.

 

[GeminiPunk]

As for the sales numbers of prologues: GT5P sold 3.3 mil so far where as GT4P sold, if not mistaken, 2.7 worldwide. Just thought I throw this out there.

 

[Sniffs]

SCJ: everybody's definition of "muscle car" varies. what I was talking about was mostly coupes that don't have a sedan or wagon somewhere (though God knows there's plenty of exceptions to THAT rule...ask Europeans what a "shooting brake" is)

and I don't count Engine size as a factor. look at the original Corvette (the 54 C1)

the first video game came out WAY back in 1971...it's called PONG.
the first consoles came out somehwere around 1978 (Pong had a home unit, which I still have a copy of, somewhere), and were still in Cartridge format. 30 bucks a cartrige and 100 bucks a console -or more- was a heck of a lot of money for those of us who grew up in wheeled houses. even the VCR (ca. 1976, as "beta" format), and CD's (1982) are older, and a LOT more expensive than you think (the cost of an original VCR could buy you a brand new Japanese Import!)

if I was a true enthusiast, I'd be in mega hock for a PS3 and a HDTV (both of which are still way outta my price range), and would have found this place a LOT sooner than I did. but I have been GTing-like the majority of players, it seems-since 98...and the original GT. I still even have my original save file intact.

most of my argumeent, from above, involves the fact that I don't personally consider a lot of fords in the "muscle" catagory *shrug*

 

[SuperCobraJet]

As for the sales numbers of prologues: GT5P sold 3.3 mil so far where as GT4P sold, if not mistaken, 2.7 worldwide. Just thought I throw this out there.

I thought we were talking about North America, at least when on topic.
At any rate, that is encouraging.

SCJ: everybody's definition of "muscle car" varies. what I was talking about was mostly coupes that don't have a sedan or wagon somewhere (though God knows there's plenty of exceptions to THAT rule...ask Europeans what a "shooting brake" is)

and I don't count Engine size as a factor. look at the original Corvette (the 54 C1)

OK, I think from this, and your last comment below, I detect a GM flag flying here somewhere. They certainly were well represented in the "Muscle Car" era.

Just as a matter of history, the first generally recognized "Muscle Car" was the 1964 Pontiac GTO, which was a rebadged Tempest (intermediate size car) with the largest V8 Pontiac had at that juncture, the 389ci., a 4speed trans. and little else, so it could be cheaply priced and targeted at the Baby Boomers. With the intro of the Mustang that same year and the ensuing "Pony car" race among the the Big three, the lines began to blur from the original "Muscle Car" concept. A intermediate size car with a Big Block engine, cheaply priced with few if any amenities.
Now some 40 years later, that line has blurred considerably more.
Nevertheless, there were some good performing small block cars that were much better balanced and fun to drive.

Sorry, but try as I mite I can't really conceive of a 54 Corvette as a "Muscle Car". Although I guess in 1954 it was.

if I was a true enthusiast, I'd be in mega hock for a PS3 and a HDTV (both of which are still way outta my price range), and would have found this place a LOT sooner than I did. but I have been GTing-like the majority of players, it seems-since 98...and the original GT. I still even have my original save file intact.)

Contrar, don't sell yourself short, you are a Racing Gamer. Besides GT5P is a short lived experience. Your statement does point out, as I stated in my first post, one reason I think sales will be sluggish.

most of my argumeent, from above, involves the fact that I don't personally consider a lot of fords in the "muscle" catagory *shrug*

Thats a shame. If you had the opportunity to drive some of them you might change your mind.
Most of the Big block cars I mentioned in the last post were 400+ hp/450-500 ft lbs of torque and incredably powerful. The manufacturers grossly under rated power fiqures for insurance purposes. The only rating that might have been real was the top end 454 Chevelle engine option of 450hp.

 

[Sniffs]

SCJ: check your quotes...you goofed a bit
lemmie put in a little bit of my automotive History

I am on Car #13, I started out in an 85 Mini-marquis on the Fox platform, and I want one back to make a lead-sled out of it. I have had at least one of each US manufacturer, and they ALL sucked. I have gone through two toyotas, and they suck too. I can only afford 150k beat up old machines. around here, anything older than the end of the muscle car era is an investement for retirement and worth craploads. Chevelles, Novas, and Montes are BORING looking. Muscle on down are a "do not touch my censored car, you hick". I've seen my step father THROW muscle cars AWAY to get them out of his road. I have moved exactly ONE muscle era car, a 318 equipped 73 Dart Swinger. I watched an antique dodge sell for peanuts because of Model A's popularity. I saw a very sweet 67 Coupe DeVille convertable sold for only 2 grand when it's worth over thirty. I turned down a 383 equipped 67 Monaco because it was 1100 bucks, I know where a 56 Buick Special sits rotting because no-one wants it. a 100k used car around here sells for a minimum of 3500 bucks.

translation...people don't care around here, and when they do, it's only for the money value of the vehicle. I will never get to SIT in a muscle-era car...they're an investment and for collectors if they're mint, destined for the scrap heap if they're not.

 

[JAGUAR1977]

http://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3?http://podcast.the1upnetwork.com/flat/1UPYours/LUP051509.mp3

Listen around the 2hr mark.

To paraphrase -

Gran Turismo is not a massive brand anymore. The games like Forza, Project Gotham have taken that away. It will sell well, but it is not a system seller by a long shot. It's a franchise that sells to it's base like inFAMOUS, Uncharted etc, it does not expand the market beyond those who have already bought a PS3.

IMO Gran Turismo is actually the one title Sony has that is a guaranteed system seller, especially as it will be the first full Gran Turismo on the PS3, and a significant physics, graphical and features step up from GT4.

 

[ZANELE]

To me GT cant die it is going to live on because the only game that I have to buy this year if I can only choose one will be GT5 .

 

[Tenacious D]

Gran Turismo is not a massive brand anymore. The games like Forza, Project Gotham have taken that away. It will sell well, but it is not a system seller by a long shot.

Man, is that ever a loaded opinion. If any game is a system seller, it's Gran Turismo 5. Yes, there are racers aplenty on the consoles now, from DIRT to Race Pro. But since Toca doesn't exist anymore, there are two main racers gamers keep their eyes on above all others, in my opinion, and those are Forza and GT.

I've heard Forza 2 sold about 4 million copies, and though I haven't seen any numbers yet I wouldn't be surprised. However, GT5 Prologue sold almost 3.5 million so far in half the time, and indications are a lot of PS3s got pulled off the shelves along with it. Forza 3 may sell 5 million, but GT5 easily has the potential to double that. GT4 was the biggest selling PS2 game for the first six months of its release, and I can see a repeat performance for GT5.

 

[jergto]

Adding Daytona was the first step from PD to get American gamers back. Now they need to add NASCAR and its a done deal.

WOW, if they added nascar that would be a giant step in the wrong direction. sure it attracts the typical american, but who gives a damn. all the gt series games were HEAVILY japan-themed (crap load of iterations of the same car, all the japanese tracks). and still sold well
PD adding nascar is equivalent to the gt4p, gt4 mobile, gt:hd and so on. (sold well, but it is the reason we are still waiting for a game intended to be released with the ps3).
if anything they should just add the complete lemans series (since it is older then neck car) f1 series, australian supercar, BTCC, DTM, FIA-GT, JGTC, and any others i forgot to mention. a nascar series would be boring as ****, wow if they integrated nascar into this game and it is the sole reason why we are still waiting, id probably go

 

[TofuStoreDrift]

WOW, if they added nascar that would be a giant step in the wrong direction. sure it attracts the typical american, but who gives a damn.

Isn't attracting "typical Americans" what PD is trying to do? You say NASCAR is boring, yet NASCAR attacts more fans then any other sport in America. I mean look at Bristol Motor Speedway, it sells all 160,000 seats twice a year, not to mention the tv viewership, even in this bad economy. I'm not saying turn GT into a NASCAR game, but what is wrong with a few cars and tracks? I mean, it has a few rally courses and cars, but you don't consider GT to be a rally game, do you? I'm not trying to bash your opinion, I'm just saying that you just speak for yourself (well and a few other members on here) when you say NASCAR is boring.

 

[Sniffs]

hell, NASCAR has already MADE fun of themselves and they're penchant for nothing but left turns. Running around in circles it how Americans started racing in the first place, so it's kinda stuck as a tradition. and you Europeans know dang well that the Yanks do everything their own way. besides, I don't think the various DOT's wanted any wear and tear on their precious 20 million dollars a mile roads.

 

[Zer0]

http://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3?http://podcast.the1upnetwork.com/flat/1UPYours/LUP051509.mp3

Listen around the 2hr mark.

To paraphrase -

Gran Turismo is not a massive brand anymore. The games like Forza, Project Gotham have taken that away. It will sell well, but it is not a system seller by a long shot. It's a franchise that sells to it's base like inFAMOUS, Uncharted etc, it does not expand the market beyond those who have already bought a PS3.

IMO Gran Turismo is actually the one title Sony has that is a guaranteed system seller, especially as it will be the first full Gran Turismo on the PS3, and a significant physics, graphical and features step up from GT4.

Gaming journalist at his best...

The 2009 Motor Trend Power List:
24. Kazunori Yamauchi
Polyphony Digital president

There's nothing remotely close to the GT brand.

 

[Worst_Driver]

Gaming journalist at his best...

The 2009 Motor Trend Power List:
24. Kazunori Yamauchi
Polyphony Digital president

There's nothing remotely close to the GT brand.

Gran turismo is what made me buy a PS3. I didn't own a PS2 but I've played GT1,GT3,GT4 at my friend's. So gran turismo not a massive brand anymore.....I don't think so
sorry for my english

 

[jergto]

Isn't attracting "typical Americans" what PD is trying to do? You say NASCAR is boring, yet NASCAR attacts more fans then any other sport in America. I mean look at Bristol Motor Speedway, it sells all 160,000 seats twice a year, not to mention the tv viewership, even in this bad economy. I'm not saying turn GT into a NASCAR game, but what is wrong with a few cars and tracks? I mean, it has a few rally courses and cars, but you don't consider GT to be a rally game, do you? I'm not trying to bash your opinion, I'm just saying that you just speak for yourself (well and a few other members on here) when you say NASCAR is boring.

then set up a pole and see how many people in GTP they would actually like a more nascar themed Gran Turismo.
its not suprising to see that bristol sells out in the middle of no-where Tennessee. im from california, i live in between 2 world renowned race tracks, not an oval track.
for them to add more nascar tracks would be plain stupid, i dont follow the series but arent most of their tracks just OVALS? or different variations of OVALS?
thank GOD, the rest of the world doesnt give a **** about nascar. i just wish the US would open its eyes or for the most part nascar fans (yea its an america tradition) SO WHAT, drifting was a japanese tradition now its popular among young americans.
i remember playing gt3 and doing the rubber band trick on the only oval track in the game (because we need more then 1 oval track) minus the test track (bigger oval).

 

[TofuStoreDrift]

then set up a pole and see how many people in GTP they would actually like a more nascar themed Gran Turismo.
its not suprising to see that bristol sells out in the middle of no-where Tennessee. im from california, i live in between 2 world renowned race tracks, not an oval track.
for them to add more nascar tracks would be plain stupid, i dont follow the series but arent most of their tracks just OVALS? or different variations of OVALS?
thank GOD, the rest of the world doesnt give a **** about nascar. i just wish the US would open its eyes or for the most part nascar fans (yea its an america tradition) SO WHAT, drifting was a japanese tradition now its popular among young americans.
i remember playing gt3 and doing the rubber band trick on the only oval track in the game (because we need more then 1 oval track) minus the test track (bigger oval).

I don't believe I said "make GT more NASCAR themed" I said have a few tracks and cars. You say you live between two world renowned tracks, but if memory serves California has two NASCAR tracks aswell, Sears Point and California Motor Speedway, both of which attract alot of fans. As for Bristol selling out because it is off in the middle of nowhere, you are way off. I live 2 miles from the main entrance of the track. I have to deal with the race traffic twice a year, and I can tell you most tags are out of state tags. Just because you hate NASCAR, doesn't mean it's boring. Sure most members here will agree with you, but it doesn't reflect the total population of America. I do believe that where your raised could have an effect on your racing preference, though. Southerners will have more of a liking towards NASCAR type racing, then west coasters. I mean shoot, our moonshiners started it.

 

[jergto]

you are VERY correct on southerners tending to like nascar more.
i can and have watched a nascar race or 2 on tv for a couple of minutes, but lost interest. i can honestly say ive done the same watching f1, alms and got bored also after a much longer couple of minutes (but would quickly jump back to channel to see what has happened.)
and living in between (both 2 hours north and south of me) are infineon and laguna seca raceways.

and sorry to come off like a pompous ass, my job has A LOT to do with that.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

you are VERY correct on southerners tending to like nascar more.
i can and have watched a nascar race or 2 on tv for a couple of minutes, but lost interest. i can honestly say ive done the same watching f1, alms and got bored also after a much longer couple of minutes (but would quickly jump back to channel to see what has happened.)
and living in between (both 2 hours north and south of me) are infineon and laguna seca raceways.

and sorry to come off like a pompous ass, my job has A LOT to do with that.

Being a southerner, I'm a NASCAR fan as well as of other types of racing.
I don't believe GT needs, nor do I want to see , NASCAR in the game or a heavier influence.
Like Coke found out the hard way, don't mess with the original recipe.
Rather, what I prefer is for NASCAR to take the game franchise from EA and give it to KAZ to develop. Then we would have a NASCAR game worth playing.

BTW while NASCAR is referred to as "turning left" and "round and round", it is difficult to appreciate the real true sense of the speed and competition, they drive those heavy box cars, door handle to door handle, on TV. If you ever have the opportunity go to a mile and a half track and view a race, especially like LOWES where they ran the ALLSTAR race last weekend, do yourself a favor and go. The "in attendance" perspective is truly amazing.
To quote the late Cup driver Neil Bonnet, when describing driving the car into the 1st corner at Charlotte(Lowes): "You hit the brake, point it into the corner and drive it in so hard it literally takes your breath away". They were running 10 to 15 mph slower than they do now, when he made that comment. They run right at 190mph lap times now.