Is GT5 not as refined in force feedback as FM3?

[t.o.]

I've had the game since a week before release and have been playing it pretty consistently till about Christmas when life stepped in. The question I have, now haven't playing if for a little over a week and having time to think and reflect, it seems the environmental effects on the wheel isn't as refined as it is in FM3. I'm wondering if this is a settings thing or it's just what it is.

While anyone is capable of commenting , I'm really looking for those who have played both games heavily AND have a wheel capable of working with both games and have been using that wheel for their experiences. I guess this is pretty much for Fanatec users and one Logitech I think that may have worked with both (but I don't think that one has FF).

With GT5 you "feel" stuff but it seems it's just about the same feeling for everything just a matter of "stronger" or "weaker" whereas it seems in FM3 there's "stronger", "weaker" and "different". Any help out there?

 

[jonboy1066]

I fully agree with you.

I played FM3 heavily with a Fanatec PWTS and since Christmas I have been playing GT5 with a Fanatec PWTS and also with my sons Fanatec GT2 (which has the latest Firmware).

I've also played F1 2010 on PS3 and XBox360 with both Fanatec wheels as well as decent helpings of RACE Pro and Ferrari Chalenge and a smattering of Superstars V8 The Next Challenge.

I have posted here about it and also elsewhere, thinking it was a setting problem but any advice or settings I have recieved have made no difference.

The Force Feedback on GT5 with a Fanatec wheel is just heavy, lifeless and poor even compared to GT5Prologue.

I now have exhausted all the wheel and in game settings that I can try and have now resigned myself to the fact that it is the game that is the problem and not my wheel. Or at least the way the game interacts with a Fanatec Wheel.

I have now dug my old Logitech Driving Force pro Wheel out of the loft and am planning to give GT5 a go on that tomorrow or the day after to see if there's any improvement but as it stands as far as Force feedback goes with a Fanatec wheel:

Ferrari Challenge = 10/10
F1 2010 (With Firmware 681) 9/10
Forza 3 = 8/10
Race Pro = 8.5/10
V8 Superstars The Next Challenge = 6/10
GT5 = a Dull, lifeless and disappointing 5.5/10

The resistance is there and the strength is there but like you've said the environmental effects such as riding a kerb, loss of weight during understeer and torque steer in a FWD car are completely conspicuous by their absence.

 

[niky]

Considered merging this with the big "GT5 versus Forza" thread, but it seems like it warrants its own discussion, as long as it doesn't turn into a rant thread. Edited the title for clarity.

 

[jonboy1066]

Yeah no need to merge, putting it in some fanboyish vs thread would just hide the issue in my opinion.

To me this is a real problem with GT5 and unless others have played the other games mentioned it's difficult for the discussion to be constructive. The only way to find an answer to the OP is to use the dreaded comparison, because as a wheel the Fanatec is up there as one of the best, yet so far it seems GT5 has failed in harnessing it's capabilities.

Unless someone else has found a magic setting that fixes it and fancies sharing.

 

[guitar421]

I have a G25 wheel and I agree that the force feedback and "feel" of GT5 is not up to the same level of Ferrari Challenge/Supercar Challenge and F1 2010 on the PS3 platform. It's not only the more sophisticated feedback like feeling whether you are loosing grip in a turn that GT5 falls short on it's also the real basic force feedback stuff like running over rumble strips or curbs and there is simply no feedback.

 

[NOS Waster]

Since I have a G27, I cannot compare GT5 to FM3 in FFB, but I can compare GT5 to iRacing in FFB.

My G27 transmits all of the bumps on the road in GT5 to me, gives me feedback on rumble strips, (A very audible rattling) and also gives me a great counter-steering effect.

Only problem i really have with GT5's FFB is that I don't get the sensation of a loss of grip, but I can normally tell that from the engine sound before the tires break completely loose.

It seems to be about on par with iRacing, except iRacing has some of the finer effects dialed in perfectly.

 

[Miths]

I have a G25 wheel and I agree that the force feedback and "feel" of GT5 is not up to the same level of ... F1 2010 on the PS3 platform.

I found the FFB in the PS3 version of F1 2010 to be some of the most dreadful I've ever felt with my G25 on either PS3 or PC. No matter how much I moved around those FFB sliders, numb, lifeless and oddly "grainy" was all I ever managed to get from it.

I ended up buying the PC version of the game as well on Steam, and after numerous play sessions of fiddling around with both in-game FFB settings as well as the Logitech profiler settings (the latter obviously a luxury sadly not available on the PS3, and I needed some really unusual profiler settings for this game) I managed to end up with fairly acceptable force feedback - much better than the PS3 version of the game, but still quite a bit worse than most PC racing sims I've played.

Oddly enough DiRT 2 - also from Codemasters - actually had vastly better FFB than F1 2010 in my opinion, in both PC and PS3 versions. And I'm pretty sure the vast differences in car types and track surface don't account for all of that.

 

[guitar421]

I think the one advantage of wheel support in PC sims vs. GT5 is that there are much more configuration options available on the PC platform. Granted it usually is some not so easy to understand config file with three dozen parms that take some time tweaking to get things right but eventually someone posts an optimal set of settings for your particular wheel type that becomes a good starting point. Why can't we have a couple of dozen slider bars to adjust these parms in GT5 rather than just two generic settings to tweak? It would seem like a better way to support the many type of wheels out there.

 

[t.o.]

I fully agree with you.

I played FM3 heavily with a Fanatec PWTS and since Christmas I have been playing GT5 with a Fanatec PWTS and also with my sons Fanatec GT2 (which has the latest Firmware).

I've also played F1 2010 on PS3 and XBox360 with both Fanatec wheels as well as decent helpings of RACE Pro and Ferrari Chalenge and a smattering of Superstars V8 The Next Challenge.

I have posted here about it and also elsewhere, thinking it was a setting problem but any advice or settings I have recieved have made no difference.

The Force Feedback on GT5 with a Fanatec wheel is just heavy, lifeless and poor even compared to GT5Prologue.

I now have exhausted all the wheel and in game settings that I can try and have now resigned myself to the fact that it is the game that is the problem and not my wheel. Or at least the way the game interacts with a Fanatec Wheel.

I have now dug my old Logitech Driving Force pro Wheel out of the loft and am planning to give GT5 a go on that tomorrow or the day after to see if there's any improvement but as it stands as far as Force feedback goes with a Fanatec wheel:

Ferrari Challenge = 10/10
F1 2010 (With Firmware 681) 9/10
Forza 3 = 8/10
Race Pro = 8.5/10
V8 Superstars The Next Challenge = 6/10
GT5 = a Dull, lifeless and disappointing 5.5/10

The resistance is there and the strength is there but like you've said the environmental effects such as riding a kerb, loss of weight during understeer and torque steer in a FWD car are completely conspicuous by their absence.

I'm glad I'm not the only one. Well I knew I wasn't but wanted some input from a group other than the group I run with weekly to keep it all objective I guess. lol. Interesting list you have also. I notice the caveat with the firmware for F1 2010. I would have switched FM3 and F1 2010 but because you're using a different firmware I'll definitely concede to your list since it seems we both are looking and missing the same things from the same wheel (PWTS) (Gotta check out that Ferrarri Challenge also if it gets a 10/10 from you, I hope that's not a "nostalgic" 10 lol).

Yeah no need to merge, putting it in some fanboyish vs thread would just hide the issue in my opinion.

To me this is a real problem with GT5 and unless others have played the other games mentioned it's difficult for the discussion to be constructive. The only way to find an answer to the OP is to use the dreaded comparison, because as a wheel the Fanatec is up there as one of the best, yet so far it seems GT5 has failed in harnessing it's capabilities.

Unless someone else has found a magic setting that fixes it and fancies sharing.

Yeah, this is interesting here. I think I'm going to have to just chalked this one up to the GT5 not getting the job done. My one last comparison to be made is going to have to be pulling out my G27 and using it with GT5. I'm really dreading doing that as I have it neatly packed away. I can however extrapolate from previous experiences and assume what's going to happen. I've played GT5P and FM3 with the same wheel months and months ago and the issue was the same. As someone said, GT5P did seem to be a bit , tad bit better, but not much.

Since I have a G27, I cannot compare GT5 to FM3 in FFB, but I can compare GT5 to iRacing in FFB.

My G27 transmits all of the bumps on the road in GT5 to me, gives me feedback on rumble strips, (A very audible rattling) and also gives me a great counter-steering effect.

Only problem i really have with GT5's FFB is that I don't get the sensation of a loss of grip, but I can normally tell that from the engine sound before the tires break completely loose.

It seems to be about on par with iRacing, except iRacing has some of the finer effects dialed in perfectly.

I'm going to have to break out the G27 for tests it seems but I think I know the outcome. It seems this isn't a settings issue as it's just the game. I think GT5's implementation of feedback is "simplistic" for lack of a better term. I think more work could have went into this aspect of the game but didn't. So settings probably will have no bearing on the "missing" effects of the wheel.

I think the one advantage of wheel support in PC sims vs. GT5 is that there are much more configuration options available on the PC platform. Granted it usually is some not so easy to understand config file with three dozen parms that take some time tweaking to get things right but eventually someone posts an optimal set of settings for your particular wheel type that becomes a good starting point. Why can't we have a couple of dozen slider bars to adjust these parms in GT5 rather than just two generic settings to tweak? It would seem like a better way to support the many type of wheels out there.

While I like this idea, and would hope it gets implemented, I think in the case of Fanatec users it'll make some but not all the difference compared to other games. I believe that there are whole parts of the wheel that aren't be utilized (at least PWTS and GT2 wheels)

EDITORIAL: I using that word because it seems appropriate. lol. I think it comes down to hardware inspiring software to some degree. Broadly speaking, PD knows that the vast majority of wheel users will be using Logitech wheels. These wheels have no motors for vibrations alone. The whole tactile experience must be implemented with the same motor that is providing the force feedback in the game as far as wheel turning. What this in turn does is implement a "basic" effect

FM3 gives more since every wheel that works with the game has separate motors for FF and environment feedback. This gives a blended more sophisticate feeling from the wheel. Can anyone else theorize that this possibly what is occurring and if so what can be done.

 

[junglemajik]

I have noticed this discrepency in GT5 and GT4 to a greater extent. I bought my G25 late 2007 and was hoping it would improve my GT4 experience to which I was disappointed. I have no experience with Forza and a wheel though Forza 2 with a controller made me want to buy and XBOX. I much preferred playing V8 Supercars 3 (TOCA3, Pro Race Driver 3) because it provided much more realistic feedback and adjustment to the wheel settings even though the logitech doesn't have dedicated FF motors.

The sims I have played have better implementation of ffb than GT5 IMO (rFactor, GTR2, LFS, TOCA3) well apart for NFS:Shift but I don't really consider anything from NFS a sim. rFactor and LFS being my favourites allow you to feel the instant the rear/front is letting go whereas in most cases in GT5 I just have to apply some lock pre-emptively or risk spinning out. Also when the wheel does start to give feedback of oversteer ,say in a drift situation, it is so slow to react that you inevetably endup in a tank slapper situation. I owned a RWD car for 8 years so I know this is not right, say you let go of the wheel so it points in the direction of travel on its own in the middle of a slide (its common place in drifting, I'm not sure what it is called), with the logitech in GT5 it spins way too slow forcing me to assist it and the addition of fixed 900 degree rotation doesn't end well as I'm generally not fast enough. Perhaps my last complaint should lie with the short comings of the Logitech's slow turning speed however in comparison with rFactor and LFS this is a non issue as I just set rotation to around 360-400 and the turning speed is fine. I hope this makes sense, I think my lack of driving technique vocabulary is making it hard to get my point across.

I think this is a huge issue as simulating driving without G-forces places much greater emphasis on the accuracy of wheel feedback and visual feedback.

Perhaps an additional option in the spin recovery menu would be good. Perhaps, on - off - sim/real

Until then I will continue to do drift trials with the controller. I think I saw some of the quicker times in the drift trial are with 200 degree wheels.

 

[HKS racer]

Ferrari Challenge = 10/10
F1 2010 (With Firmware 681) 9/10
Forza 3 = 8/10
Race Pro = 8.5/10
V8 Superstars The Next Challenge = 6/10
GT5 = a Dull, lifeless and disappointing 5.5/10

My votes to forcefeedback & physic:

GT5 Prologue = 9/10
GTR2 pc = 9.5/10 great sim
Rfactor pc = 9/10
Nfs Shift ps3= 4.5/10
Grid ps3 = 6/10
Dirt 2 ps3 = 8/10
GT5 = 10/10 nothing short than AMAZING. I use these settings: Simulation and FF to 7

I have a DFGT.

 

[jonboy1066]

My votes to forcefeedback & physic:

GT5 = 10/10 nothing short than AMAZING. I use these settings: Simulation and FF to 7

I have a DFGT.

That's interesting. Have you tried Ferrari Challenge? May I suggest that you give it a go, I used to play it with my Driving Force Pro and it was amazing, on the Fanatec it was even better!

Giving 10/10 and finding GT5 amazing is also interesting, I'll definately have to plug in my DFP tomorrow as it's basically the same wheel so should give simillar results to yours.

 

[Raitziger]

I bet OP just has ingame FFB over 5 in GT5 which kills details in fanatec wheel.

 

[u00mem9]

Finally ...I was starting to think I was the only one. How many times can I read how great the physics model is in gt5. I can't understand it. Even car and driver said the same thing about gt5 being more accurate than Forza. Wtf? These are guys who have a reference frame.

I think I finally figured it out. In Forza if you use a controller , it automatically adds a steering assist. It's not a setting , it's an aid based on the system seeing a controller instead of a wheel. Sure enough, c and d has a photo of the guy playing with the xbox controller while the g27 wheel just sits in front of him.

It's a shame we can't get the word out to people to not judge the game based on the controller. It really does then it into an arcade feel...which is logical for the casual player

Too bad xbox wheel choices are so limited. $300+ fanatec is just not realistic for some.

 

[tribolik]

Well I have a DFGT (the official wheel) and force feedback set to simulation and 5 and I can tell you that I feel the same.
No feel over rumble strips (most of them at least) no feell over coblestones in rome (in GT3 I felt it a lot and with a worse wheel - the logitech driving force)
But to be honest the FFB in GT5 is much better than the FFB in F1 2010 (the worse FFB in any recent racer in my opinion)

 

[skazz]

GT5 surface detail is very variable depending on the track. Some tracks (e.g. Suzuka, London, Fuji) are utterly flat and lifeless. But running the Nordschleife on my DFGT there's a vast amount of surface feedback and corresponding car balance feedback, it's superb. I'd also say it's not far off iRacing with my G25 in that respect.
I do agree that understeer is VERY subtle in GT5, you can barely feel the wheel going light. However, you have noise and the tyre grip indicator so I can live with that.

I also have no trouble feeling rumble strips on the DFGT, set to 8 (not played around with it, I just went with my GT5P favoured setting and it's great). Of course, all sims simulate sawtooth and painted rumble strips as the totally different things they are, perhaps there is confusion as to what is a saw tooth rumble strip and what is just painted red/white stripes?

One thing I'd like to comment on here is the big "gap" in FFB in some race sims compared to others. In most rFactor mods or Forza 3 you can lose the back end of the car and simply not have a clue that it's about to happen because there is zero FFB feedback and a total lack of alternate sources of information. In comparison, I've never felt that happen in iRacing, Simbin sims or GT5. I always know due to one of the various cues that the back end is about to break loose. Sure, this might be achieved by mixing in extra FFB cues apart from pure steering rack information, but since a simulation has no G-Forces, I believe it's the right way to do it.

As a result, I rate FFB:
iRacing > GT5 > Simbin (Race On/GTR2) far ahead of rFactor and Forza series.


Edit: Forgot to say that I've tried the beta/demos of Supercar Challenge and Ferrari Challenge and I found the FFB (on my DFGT) to be a complete joke. The centring force just swamped all other feedback and I just felt like I was fighting the wheel to get the car to turn corners. Not pleasant. I tried everything I could think of since lots of GTP people rate the FFB highly, but I couldn't find a way to make the FFB anything other than totally awful.

 

[zr1chris]

I have the MS wheel and Forza 3, and i also have the DFGT with GT5. I have to say that i get more feedback with the DFGT on GT5 than the MS wheel on Forza. I had been playing Forza with the MS wheel since the release of Forza 2 which at the time i thought was awesome but when i got my DFGT and GT5P Sept 2010 i definetely felt it was an upgrade.

DFGT and GT5 is better than the MS wheel and Forza 3

 

[hsdioce]

I fully agree with you.

I played FM3 heavily with a Fanatec PWTS and since Christmas I have been playing GT5 with a Fanatec PWTS and also with my sons Fanatec GT2 (which has the latest Firmware).

I've also played F1 2010 on PS3 and XBox360 with both Fanatec wheels as well as decent helpings of RACE Pro and Ferrari Chalenge and a smattering of Superstars V8 The Next Challenge.

I have posted here about it and also elsewhere, thinking it was a setting problem but any advice or settings I have recieved have made no difference.

The Force Feedback on GT5 with a Fanatec wheel is just heavy, lifeless and poor even compared to GT5Prologue.

I now have exhausted all the wheel and in game settings that I can try and have now resigned myself to the fact that it is the game that is the problem and not my wheel. Or at least the way the game interacts with a Fanatec Wheel.

I have now dug my old Logitech Driving Force pro Wheel out of the loft and am planning to give GT5 a go on that tomorrow or the day after to see if there's any improvement but as it stands as far as Force feedback goes with a Fanatec wheel:

Ferrari Challenge = 10/10
F1 2010 (With Firmware 681) 9/10
Forza 3 = 8/10
Race Pro = 8.5/10
V8 Superstars The Next Challenge = 6/10
GT5 = a Dull, lifeless and disappointing 5.5/10

The resistance is there and the strength is there but like you've said the environmental effects such as riding a kerb, loss of weight during understeer and torque steer in a FWD car are completely conspicuous by their absence.

really? i have a dfgt and i really feel the loss of weight in a FWD car when it understeers, and really have the effects of kerbs, especially on Nurburgring where the kerbs are really high, but i feel great FFB, i also have F1 2010 and its just as good, btw my FFB is set to 5

 

[spdracer]

Well,now I'm more confused than ever. I just completed the kart races,the first race the DFGT wheel felt good,then I ran it again an hour later and the wheel was chattering,losing ffb on corners(I was on track the whole time). I've noticed alot of tracks the wheel has a definite chatter,even on straights and loses ffb on corners. I have the ffb at 10. Could I have a bad wheel? Also how do you change the wheel to 90 degrees?

 

[Gabkicks]

What settings are you guys using? For my PWTS, I use:
sensitivity: 900
ff: 100
sho:0
Driftmode: 3
pedal abs:100
l,n: 0
deadzone: 0
springrate: 0

ingame i am using simulation steering w/ ff @ 3.

 

[strtgng]

What settings are you guys using? For my PWTS, I use:
sensitivity: 900
ff: 100
sho:0
Driftmode: 3
pedal abs:100
l,n: 0
deadzone: 0
springrate: 0

ingame i am using simulation steering w/ ff @ 3.

Driftmode 3?? Wow - doesn't that seems really loose? I'm pleased with FFB in GT5 for the most part. I took all the suggestions to turn down the FFB in GT5 and on the PWTS and now it actually feels better.

OP said FFB in Race Pro was 8.5 vs 8.0 in FM3. I like the FFB in FM3 and it does feel like actual road surface feel is better than in GT5, but car control is not. But Race-pro?? I barely felt any FFB in that game even with all settings maxed out! Not a big fan of the game - but it is the only console game out there with Mid-Ohio in it!

 

[t.o.]

Ok guys, been reading the replies. I just want to clarify that this isn't about which game's ffb is "better" or what "wheel rocks". It's about whether GT5 is giving us, and Fanatec owners more specifically since it can be used as a baseline for multiple platforms and games, all that it should. This also has ramifications on the new "supposedly" ffb H-Pattern shifter that Fanatec is coming out. Will GT5 give the vibrations to the stick that it should?

What settings are you guys using? For my PWTS, I use:
sensitivity: 900
ff: 100
sho:0
Driftmode: 3
pedal abs:100
l,n: 0
deadzone: 0
springrate: 0

ingame i am using simulation steering w/ ff @ 3.

How do these settings feel to you?


EDIT:

OP said FFB in Race Pro was 8.5 vs 8.0 in FM3.

I doubt I said that since I don't own Race Pro

I bet OP just has ingame FFB over 5 in GT5 which kills details in fanatec wheel.

I will check into that. Could very well be the case. I'll be putting my rig back together today so I'll be sure to check it out.

 

[RacingManiac]

Speaking of FFB setting, any G25 user can comment what to use? I've been dialing mine to 10 but I am wonder if lower might actually be better? Weighting is nice I feel and around Nordschleife the feedback is good, but I am wonder if the weighting might be diluting some of the finer details?

 

[SavageEvil]

I play GT5 with FF set to 10 as I'm used to this from prologue. Thing is that since GT made it's way to PS3 FF has gotten weaker than it was in the last generation. Put GT4 on and you'll see what I mean. Now it's not that this is a bad turn of events, it seems that this makes more sense as it now has varying feel for everything. When I race with different cars many things pop up when I drive, feedback in GT5 is nothing short of incredible. When you use a stiff setup on a race car the steering indeed tightens up, there is also an in between point where the steering is pretty light at low speed, but when it's too low and you try to turn the steering tightens up(no power steering I assume). FFB changes from car to car as well as from set up to set up, street cars don't have much feedback at all, unless you run over something or lock your wheels under braking. The bumps in the road surface is what I really like, you really feel these when your suspension is stiff and they pose a greater risk to race tires than they do to sports. Main thing is I get feedback to let me know what is going on with my car at any given time, helps me correct things that are about to go bad, it's harder is some cars like NASCARs but it is still correctable with the FFB that I get through the wheel, which is what counts.

 

[Gabkicks]

How do these settings feel to you?

I can feel rumble strips, and weight shifting.

Driftmode 3?? Wow - doesn't that seems really loose?

not really. I consider myself to be relatively quick. I haven't tried driftmode settings lower than 3 with gt5 yet though.

 

[chromatic9]

What settings are you guys using? For my PWTS, I use:
sensitivity: 900
ff: 100
sho:0
Driftmode: 3
pedal abs:100
l,n: 0
deadzone: 0
springrate: 0

ingame i am using simulation steering w/ ff @ 3.

Same settings here but I have driftmode on 4.

I must use my G25 to compare but I've not felt the need to change. I must be imagining the FBB going lighter when I lose traction.

 

[t.o.]

Same settings here but I have driftmode on 4.

I must use my G25 to compare but I've not felt the need to change. I must be imagining the FBB going lighter when I lose traction.

I assume you've used your wheel quite a bit with FM3. Do you feel like something's "missing" in GT5 as far as the feedback GT5 gives compared to FM3?

 

[jonboy1066]

OP said FFB in Race Pro was 8.5 vs 8.0 in FM3. I like the FFB in FM3 and it does feel like actual road surface feel is better than in GT5, but car control is not. But Race-pro?? I barely felt any FFB in that game even with all settings maxed out! Not a big fan of the game - but it is the only console game out there with Mid-Ohio in it!

That wasn't the OP that was me.

RACE Pro's FFb was terrible at the start, but it was patched and fixed brilliantly. Also don't forget that most peopel who played RACE Pro on a wheel played it with either the M$ wheel or Logitech Drive FX, both of those wheels were terrible at FFB anyway, but I gave my score as felt through a Fanatec PWTS.

 

[t.o.]

That wasn't the OP that was me.

RACE Pro's FFb was terrible at the start, but it was patched and fixed brilliantly. Also don't forget that most peopel who played RACE Pro on a wheel played it with either the M$ wheel or Logitech Drive FX, both of those wheels were terrible at FFB anyway, but I gave my score as felt through a Fanatec PWTS.

And this is exactly what I'm looking for.

I lowered my in-game FFb to 5 as suggested earlier. Seems to help some. But there's still something missing. I think engine rev is one thing.

 

[jonboy1066]

I lowered my in-game FFb to 5 as suggested earlier. Seems to help some. But there's still something missing. I think engine rev is one thing.

Yep I've just spent the evening with mine lowered to as far as it'll go (0 or 1, not sure) and things have improved for me too, they have also improved as I'm progressing through the game and getting my hands on some meatier cars (Now on level 16 and racing in the Pro A Spec section). But the Kerb rumble is still absent as is the understeer and torque steer feeling that there should be.