Is GT7's overall understeering tendency just "wrong"?

[Greycap]

Ok, so as the user I have the choice between understeering because of still braking, or understeering because of releasing the brakes thus being too fast - great options...

The third option is getting the braking point right instead of overshooting it, slowing down enough, and turning in normally. Braking too late is guaranteed to put you in the wall, as it does in real life.

 

[newmedia_dev]

Ok, so as the user I have the choice between understeering because of still braking, or understeering because of releasing the brakes thus being too fast - great options...

As a user, you can get to the right speed for the turn (grip you are asking) the game has its envelope for this and no amount of real world is going to change that.

As a user you have the choice between optimising:

Braking
Turning
Acceleration

You cannot have all 3 or even 2 at the same time mostly in the game or real life (ignoring weather, budget tires etc etc))

The fastest guys in the world and the subsequent many thousands that get within the 3% threshold aren't understeering off the track and are setting massively impressive times in the game using the game physics.

So really your choice as a user is to understand the game a bit more, analyse your own driving/inputs a bit more and leave reality at the door when you start a game.

 

[Meltac]

The third option is getting the braking point right instead of overshooting it, slowing down enough, and turning in normally. Braking too late is guaranteed to put you in the wall, as it does in real life.

As a user, you can get to the right speed for the turn [...]

So really your choice as a user is to understand the game a bit more, analyse your own driving/inputs a bit more and leave reality at the door when you start a game.

Or: Optimize tuning to get slight yet controllable oversteering instead of massive understeering - the way I use to do it right now.

Because from that point I still can and will optimize my driving style, but without the frustration of the car not turning "correctly" (in my noob sense). Instead the car turns at least half-way "correctly" and I notice the oversteering happening as an optimization point, which feels much better for me than the opposite.

Since, as many of you said IT'S A GAME - so it's supposed to give mainly fun, not frustration. And since apparently many of you don't consider GT7 a real / pure sim, it's not supposed to behave close to real life (which it still doesn't in my opinion).

 

[Tommy_D]

Ok, so as the user I have the choice between understeering because of still braking, or understeering because of releasing the brakes thus being too fast - great options...

One thing that contributes to the rather frustrating feeling that comes with GT7's steering behaviour is that, unlike in real life, you won't realize understeering apart from not reaching the intended corner angle. In real life you often feel, sometimes even hear, the front tires loosing traction and instinctively release the brakes or the throttle (depending on whether braking or accelerating at this time) immediately. In GT7 there's no sign of front tires loosing grip, only the cornering does not happen the way you intended. My real life experiences comes exclusively from road / sports cars, though, no idea how different behaviour in race cars is.

Uhhh... What???? Thats not true for me. My wheel transmits the front end feel just fine. It's likely that your wheel settings are not quite setup correctly. Try taking out some '60's cars to Big Willow and go around that big carousel. You should feel the front end struggling for grip the faster you go. Go too fast and the wheels slide out on you. You should feel the wheel lose its grip.

The previous physics change had absolutely no feel, even with the settings up all the way you could barely feel the front end of car. It wasnt even worth playing the game.

 

[newmedia_dev]

Or: Optimize tuning to get slight yet controllable oversteering instead of massive understeering - the way I use to do it right now.

Just saying dude other peeps seem to be able to do it with tuning or without.

The problem is not the game, it has finite parameters and is consistent. Real world is not and real world doesn't always cross over well to a console game. We are not talking F1/FIA grade simulation models bud.

Because from that point I still can and will optimize my driving style, but without the frustration of the car not turning "correctly" (in my noob sense). Instead the car turns at least half-way "correctly" and I notice the oversteering happening as an optimization point, which feels much better for me than the opposite

The game could do with better modelling but may I ask what controller type and setup are you using?

Since, as many of you said IT'S A GAME - so it's supposed to give mainly fun, not frustration. And since apparently many of you don't consider GT7 a real / pure sim, it's not supposed to behave close to real life (which it still doesn't in my opinion).

It does behave closely to real life, enough close to span the car classes and tuning ranges in the game.

Just look a few of the top times in the dailies or TT or CE ghosts, these cars are not handling bad and setting world level times, so either they are wrong or more than likely the skill gap is a bit bigger than you think it is.

Regardless if it's a sim or arcade or simcade you gotta play to what you have in front of you and no beating down on its physics is helping you drive better for the game in the way the game wants. It's not going to bend to you so you might as well adjust to it.

 

[Meltac]

My wheel transmits the front end feel just fine. It's likely that your wheel settings are not quite setup correctly. Try taking out some '60's cars to Big Willow and go around that big carousel. You should feel the front end struggling for grip the faster you go. Go too fast and the wheels slide out on you. You should feel the wheel lose its grip.

Aha! Now we are finally getting closer! I seem to not have mentioned that I'm on controller, not wheel. My apologies. So might it be that wheels give you feedback where controllers don't?

The game could do with better modelling but may I ask what controller type and setup are you using?

Original Dualshock on PS4. Not sure what you mean by controller setup? I don't use motion steering, that's assigned to the left stick. Key assignments shouldn't matter, do they? Sensivity I've tried all, currently I'm on 7 I think.

EDIT: More precisely:

DUALSHOCK 4 wireless controller - PS4 Controller​

 

[newmedia_dev]

Aha! Now we are finally getting closer! I seem to not have mentioned that I'm on controller, not wheel. My apologies. So might it be that wheels give you feedback where controllers don't?


Original Dualshock on PS4. Not sure what you mean by controller setup? I don't use motion steering, that's assigned to the left stick. Key assignments shouldn't matter, do they? Sensivity I've tried all, currently I'm on 7 I think.

EDIT: More precisely:

DUALSHOCK 4 wireless controller - PS4 Controller​

Ok that makes a bit more sense.

When you talk about understeer in the game we aren't talking about the same thing my friend.

I use a wheel and pedals and VR now so my experience is very very different to yours.

Here are two videos one is me in racing this weeks daily in a competitive lobby, you will see there is loads of oversteer and not a lot of understeer, and the other video is using a tuned road car and putting it in the Porsche 911 and the 3rd meta choice 300th in the world and I'm not that good to be honest.

I am playing the EXACT same game as you.

These are not flexes or anything like that just the yang to the point you are trying to make. Understeer is not overly exaggerated in the game and that driving style needs more work than the physics.

Porsche top 300 time



This weeks daily in VR in an all A/S lobby

 

[Meltac]

Ok that makes a bit more sense.

When you talk about understeer in the game we aren't talking about the same thing my friend.

I use a wheel and pedals and VR now so my experience is very very different to yours.

Here are two videos [...]

Thank you for the reply and the videos. But sorry I don't really understand why it makes more sense now. Are you telling me that I got things wrong because I use a controller instead of a wheel / pedals / VR?

if so I still accuse the game of delivering **** but not because of understeering itself but because of having a bad controller implementation.

 

[Meltac]

Just saying dude other peeps seem to be able to do it with tuning or without.

Or put it the other way round: There are peeps (like me) that are able to do it without spending hours of optimizing their driving style because they tune their cars to behave the way they want them to

 

[newmedia_dev]

Thank you for the reply and the videos. But sorry I don't really understand why it makes more sense now. Are you telling me that I got things wrong because I use a controller instead of a wheel / pedals / VR?

if so I still accuse the game of delivering **** but not because of understeering itself but because of having a bad controller implementation.

I'm was trying to be very polite, some practice might go a long way rather than blaming the physics.

I can literally post a dozen Tidgney videos with him getting top 10 times in the world on a controller and wheel, he does them both.

If the game was that rubbish then how can others drive round it with all different setups and controller types.

You are free to question the game and its physics but I'm not sure to what end you want if you to enjoy the game and go faster in it?

Edit:

"Or put it the other way round: There are peeps (like me) that are able to do it without spending hours of optimizing their driving style because they tune their cars to behave the way they want them to "

Brute force it you mean? Sure it's your game abuse the AI and mechanics how you want. But it's your driving style that requires that not the physics in this instance.

 

[PirovacBoy]

I'm conscious of the thread title being a little provocative... but as I said here before, I've never played a racing / driving game on any platform with so heavy tendency to understeer like GT7.

I'm not a race pro or car physics pro, so I've asked a few people (plus ChatGPT ). The result is pretty clear: In real life, normal road cars tend to understeering because it's much better to control than oversteering and thus safer, whereas sports and especially race cars (touring, formula 1 etc.) tend - if neutrality could not be reached - much more often to oversteering than understeering because it's often just "faster" (and pro drivers can control it).

In GT7 however one is forced to tune almost every sports or race car to not understeer when coming from stock. Why? Before the last update oversteering often was difficult to control, so the inaccurate game physics might have been a reason to add understeering tendency, but now it's much better controllable so IMHO there's no reason anymore to have so much understeering.

Thoughts?

No I wouldn't say that GT 7 has a tendency to amplify understeer hence it doesn't do anything wrong.
Of course this is just my personal, opinion, but as someone who drives quite a lot as well as all sorts of cars across all available tire compounds, I have to disagree on your observation.

To put everything even more in some sort of comprehensive relation.
As I'm just answering your question, I just noticed that I've driven over 5000!!! Hours in GT7.
To be precise, 5028 hours 😁

So take my answer for what it is granted but I think I can and have the knowledge to judge the game.

Anyway feel free to disagree.
Cheers 🙂

 

[Nakano219]

I don't know many of you read the post-GTWS interviews this year, Kaz went into this topic a bit (sorry if there's a GTPlanet version of this interview, I couldn't find it).

Gran Turismo’s Kazunori Yamauchi on 30 years of PlayStation and why sim racing shouldn't be difficult

When the opportunity to speak to Gran Turismo lead Kazunori Yamauchi presented itself, it was clear talk about the future was off-limits. Nevertheless, the visionary still had some fascinating points to make about PlayStation’s genesis and sim racing ‘realism’.

traxion.gg

“When we’re talking about physics, we’ve never made the physics focus on entertainment or make the car easier to drive than it is in real life,” the deified developer explained.

“Even still today, the physics simulation in Gran Turismo is the cutting edge in driving simulation. The set-up of the car is made so that anyone can drive it fairly easily, especially racing cars. [It’s designed to] have slight understeer because, for a beginner driver, the most difficult thing to control is when the rear starts sliding out.

“The suspension set-up and the brake balance are all set up initially so that it’s easier for the beginner driver. We also have a lot of different driving assists such as traction control, stability control and steering assist. It’s made so that if you turn those features on, it’s easier to drive.

“For a more professional level driver that wants to have a high-level experience, they can turn all those assists off and then change the [car] settings so that if it’s a driver that prefers a car that oversteers a little bit more, then, we have the freedom to be able to set the car up to what you prefer.”

“I think in the sim racing world there’s a big misunderstanding over the last 20 or more years, where racing cars, real racing cars, are actually really easy to drive.

“[They are] actually much easier to drive than a production model car because otherwise you wouldn’t be able to race at those speeds on the track.

“Somewhere down the line it became this thing where it being difficult to drive is realistic, and that’s not true at all.”