Is GT7's overall understeering tendency just "wrong"?

[Talon16]

I have 600 hours into the game on hard difficulty and no aids and this scenario has literally never happened to me once. Another player mentioned this phenomena but couldn't provide any proof of it actually happening. If this is custom race the rubberbanding is a very broken system, IIRC the settings are backwards. That said, I hardly ever play custom races, as there are plenty of in-game races to do, and custom race AI are always the slowest things on the planet.

It could be down to tune, setup, fuel map, tires, tire wear, or just your pace. They could have been blowing your doors off through the bus-stop in this case.

Regardless, the AI don't "cheat". Have unfair advantages? Sure... Unless we're talking about tuned PP races, then they 100% have way more power than we do.

As I mentioned, it's a BoP in identical Gr3 cars (Viper). Thus, there is no tune, my FM is on 1, I have the tire advantage, and as far as pace... na, see below*. Regardless, the AI will sporadically go four seconds faster in a lap? There are just two of us. Basically what happens is I walk away from the other AI car at a pace of multiple seconds per lap. In this scenario, I am on RMs and the AI defaults to RH tires. Once I get away enough (whatever that is) AND the closer we get to the finish, the game gives the AI car ridiculous straight line speed. I have the purple lap the whole race, untill ~75% the way thru. In this 20 lap race it usually goes purple on lap 16-17 or something.

*You can try to call out my pace if you want, but this is an exact replica of the Daytona GTWS race that pseudo-happened last Saturday and will happen again on Wednesday. My race pace is high 44s/low 45s and my TT time (last I checked) was top 150 in the world at a 43.8; P1's time was low 43s. So the fact that the AI, on RH tires and X amount of fuel puts in a low 41 is two seconds faster (did one of these yesterday and AI went 41.0) than the fastest human drivers on the planet while on RM tires, no tire wear, and running on fumes...? Come on.

Saying I am too slow in the bus stop? No. I've watched the replay. It's the exact opposite as you say. It's ridiculously slow to all the turny bits but becomes OP on the straights. Whereas I am hitting 176mph at the s/f line, the AI is hitting 186mph (despite it's well documented maximum 97% throttle input). If the AI has the fastest lap, I am purple through the first two sectors (turny bits) by .700" but it's all gone by the bus stop. Exiting the bus stop, purple again by .250", then +3.000" by the s/f line (ie, I am faster through the bus stop by magically lose three seconds on the second oval!?).

The AI cheats in an attempt to keep the race "close." The opposite as above happens as well: when I pit for new tires/fuel, I come out 15 seconds behind the AI but make it all up in ~1.5 laps. Literal seconds fall off the delta at every turn. This happens all the time in the races I set up to mimic WS races or league races in order to practice/try strats.

I run hard difficulty and rubberbanding off. Maybe the rubberbanding settings are backwards but your mention of it is the first time I've ever heard anyone say that.

Don't know what other proof you need other than the screenshot I provided. My pace is very consistent, and if the AI is consistently lapping four seconds a lap better (which would prove my pace (and GTWS drivers as well) is the issue) how am I possibly winning? That's because the AI cheats and once it gets far enough back it gets a boost on the straights to keep it "close." Once it closes the gap to ~ five seconds it backs back off. Maybe this doesn't happen in pre-programmed 1P races, but it does in Custom races; try one, you'll see. Lame and lazy programing, IMO.

 

[Voodoovaj]

I was commenting on your AI stuff. Which also doesn’t have much to do with oversteer, but one thing I will say is, it’s no AI giving up corners, it’s them brake checking you in a corner or even coming out of a corner.

This has been covered so often, and honestly I don't know how people don't see it. The AI is set to lose. Custom races are the worst offenders. They aren't "brake checking" they are giving you the pass. It doesn't matter if it's Sophy, or the custom races, the AI will give you the win. There's only a handful of races where there is a halfway decent challenge, and you're still very likely to finished on the podium even if you screw up.

Try that in Sport Mode. Try finishing on the podium after you crash.

Don't drive against the AI like they are people. Drive like they want to lose to you.

 

[newmedia_dev]

Try that in Sport Mode. Try finishing on the podium after you crash.

It's bloody hard and rare but doable.....when the stars align.

 

[hawkeyez]

This has been covered so often, and honestly I don't know how people don't see it. The AI is set to lose. Custom races are the worst offenders. They aren't "brake checking" they are giving you the pass. It doesn't matter if it's Sophy, or the custom races, the AI will give you the win. There's only a handful of races where there is a halfway decent challenge, and you're still very likely to finished on the podium even if you screw up.

Try that in Sport Mode. Try finishing on the podium after you crash.

Don't drive against the AI like they are people. Drive like they want to lose to you.

My exact point, the AI is not good. If you have to learn what they do or how they drive to have a fun realistic race against them, then it’s garbage. Such as braking out of a corner and cutting you off when you were going for a cross over, so you react and move over but then they do to.

They’re magnetic to your car. I’ve been going down the long straight at Spa, they’re far left, I’m on the right closing the gap really fast and you can see their car pull towards you as you get closer. If your car isn’t that fast, they will block you, if it’s faster, they might even pit maneuver you. If it’s much faster you’ll sneak past them and see them move in behind you, only to move back to the left side for the right hander coming up.

I suppose this is related to understeer since I believe the way the AI is in this game, it really promotes divebombing, for some reason if you can just get past them they simply back off. It’s easier to win and not get frustrated by them if you just best them into the corner.

 

[Voodoovaj]

It's bloody hard and rare but doable.....when the stars align.

Exactly. Hard but doable. No one is allowing you to win.

In single player, it's almost a given. Give the Ai a 10 second head start in the Sunday Cup and you will still win. It's set up to lose.

My exact point, the AI is not good.

No. The AI is SET UP to lose. That's not the same thing.


Take Sophy as an example. Everyone was so stoked for it. We've all seen the videos of what Sophy can do. We know, without question, that Sophy can be omnipotent if allowed to be. However, the Sophy that they implemented is far from it's maximum potential. Did Sophy all of a sudden become terrible? No. They set it up to lose.

The same is true for the base AI. There's a handful of events where the AI is set to be good, but most events are set up so the AI will slow down for you, because, if not, you would never win an event.

 

[Tommy_D]

Exactly. Hard but doable. No one is allowing you to win.

In single player, it's almost a given. Give the Ai a 10 second head start in the Sunday Cup and you will still win. It's set up to lose.


No. The AI is SET UP to lose. That's not the same thing.


Take Sophy as an example. Everyone was so stoked for it. We've all seen the videos of what Sophy can do. We know, without question, that Sophy can be omnipotent if allowed to be. However, the Sophy that they implemented is far from it's maximum potential. Did Sophy all of a sudden become terrible? No. They set it up to lose.

The same is true for the base AI. There's a handful of events where the AI is set to be good, but most events are set up so the AI will slow down for you, because, if not, you would never win an event.

I wouldn’t say it is set up to lose. There are plenty of races in hard difficulty where it is a struggle to win: Neo-classic race at Willow Springs, Redbull x2019 race at Lake Maggiore and Interlagos, Formula Race at Fuji, Human Comedy races at Tsukuba and Lake Maggiore, Gr.1 race at Daytona Infield, etc.

What I have found is that there are a lot of races where you can take a car that is 50-75pp below the “recommended” PP rating and have really great races with the AI. Most of these are the races where there is only a recommended PP rating and not a hard limit.

For example, this race was a blast. It took me many, many, many attempts to win this one with a stock Mercedes safety car:

 

[newmedia_dev]

I wouldn’t say it is set up to lose. There are plenty of races in hard difficulty where it is a struggle to win: Neo-classic race at Willow Springs, Redbull x2019 race at Lake Maggiore and Interlagos, Formula Race at Fuji, Human Comedy races at Tsukuba and Lake Maggiore, Gr.1 race at Daytona Infield, etc.

Honestly they are "more difficult" than the other races but more than winnable, lago being an outlier as that seems for some reason a lot trickier for people than the others.

 

[Tommy_D]

Honestly they are "more difficult" than the other races but more than winnable, lago being an outlier as that seems for some reason a lot trickier for people than the others.

Of course they are winnable, but they certainly are not like what voodoovaj is saying. The AI is not "set up to lose". It's got a lot of rubberbanding built in, but if you choose the right cars, again about 50-75pp less than recommended, you can have some good races with the AI.

 

[newmedia_dev]

Of course they are winnable, but they certainly are not like what voodoovaj is saying. The AI is not "set up to lose". It's got a lot of rubberbanding built in, but if you choose the right cars, again about 50-75pp less than recommended, you can have some good races with the AI.

I think you are both saying the same thing from different lenses to be honest.

The AI is set up to be beaten and you can choose to make it more competitive and fun, conversely it's mostly just a last to first challenge even the strat choices at the high difficulty is a bit designed to let you catch up etc.

The thing is, once you've raced enough decent humans you really start to see the deficiency in the AI, it's really quite stark.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Of course they are winnable, but they certainly are not like what voodoovaj is saying. The AI is not "set up to lose". It's got a lot of rubberbanding built in, but if you choose the right cars, again about 50-75pp less than recommended, you can have some good races with the AI.

It's not a global setting. It's an event specific setting.

Custom race is a great example of this. You can set it to three levels. Also, you can adjust overall difficulty in the options, which just bumps the difficulty of each event. However, on top of that, there are event specific settings, which is why the global difficulty setting points out that it may not affect all events.

The AI is absolutely set up to lose and, fair play, this game is accessible to all ages, and there are children playing. It doesn't make sense for the single player events to be set up as a challenge to someone who can achieve a DR A, A+, or S.

It's more than rubber banding. The bulk of the field is trying to finish far behind you.

 

[NickGuy]

I really dislike the racing in this game it feels so stiff and bloated. I also dont care to learn the tuning, so it's probably my fault the driving experience is so bad, idk. All I know is the default driving experience is buns

 

[Tommy_D]

It's not a global setting. It's an event specific setting.

Custom race is a great example of this. You can set it to three levels. Also, you can adjust overall difficulty in the options, which just bumps the difficulty of each event. However, on top of that, there are event specific settings, which is why the global difficulty setting points out that it may not affect all events.

The AI is absolutely set up to lose and, fair play, this game is accessible to all ages, and there are children playing. It doesn't make sense for the single player events to be set up as a challenge to someone who can achieve a DR A, A+, or S.

It's more than rubber banding. The bulk of the field is trying to finish far behind you.

Custom races have lots of flaws in them. The biggest one being that you can't change the tires of your pre-selected opponents. For some unknown reason PD only allows the cars you selected to be driven on the tires that they came with from Brand Central/Used Dealership. I tried making a custom race against a bunch of my 600pp cars and half of them switched back to Comfort series tires. I thought I would have a good race with 20 cars all running similar lap times. Turns out half the cars were slower by 10 seconds a lap. Made for a lot of rolling roadblocks. Thats why I don't recommend running custom races. They don't work like you want them to.

And yes, if you spin out in a custom race, the AI will slow down and wait for you. They don't do this to such an extreme in the standard races. But the AI will slow down a bit. They don't need to race as fast if you spin out since you are their only opponent. The AI aren't racing against each other. The AI of Gallo doesn't care if it beats the AI of Kokubun. It's just designed to beat you. If you pick a car that is way faster than the AI, of course you are going to slaughter them. But you choose what car you want to run. If it's a 600pp event and you find your 599.98pp car to win by 20 seconds at the end of the race, drop your PP level to 550 and see what that does. You will probably have a much more engaging race.

 

[LSFDRX]

As I mentioned, it's a BoP in identical Gr3 cars (Viper). Thus, there is no tune, my FM is on 1, I have the tire advantage, and as far as pace... na, see below*. Regardless, the AI will sporadically go four seconds faster in a lap? There are just two of us. Basically what happens is I walk away from the other AI car at a pace of multiple seconds per lap. In this scenario, I am on RMs and the AI defaults to RH tires. Once I get away enough (whatever that is) AND the closer we get to the finish, the game gives the AI car ridiculous straight line speed. I have the purple lap the whole race, untill ~75% the way thru. In this 20 lap race it usually goes purple on lap 16-17 or something.

*You can try to call out my pace if you want, but this is an exact replica of the Daytona GTWS race that pseudo-happened last Saturday and will happen again on Wednesday. My race pace is high 44s/low 45s and my TT time (last I checked) was top 150 in the world at a 43.8; P1's time was low 43s. So the fact that the AI, on RH tires and X amount of fuel puts in a low 41 is two seconds faster (did one of these yesterday and AI went 41.0) than the fastest human drivers on the planet while on RM tires, no tire wear, and running on fumes...? Come on.

Saying I am too slow in the bus stop? No. I've watched the replay. It's the exact opposite as you say. It's ridiculously slow to all the turny bits but becomes OP on the straights. Whereas I am hitting 176mph at the s/f line, the AI is hitting 186mph (despite it's well documented maximum 97% throttle input). If the AI has the fastest lap, I am purple through the first two sectors (turny bits) by .700" but it's all gone by the bus stop. Exiting the bus stop, purple again by .250", then +3.000" by the s/f line (ie, I am faster through the bus stop by magically lose three seconds on the second oval!?).

The AI cheats in an attempt to keep the race "close." The opposite as above happens as well: when I pit for new tires/fuel, I come out 15 seconds behind the AI but make it all up in ~1.5 laps. Literal seconds fall off the delta at every turn. This happens all the time in the races I set up to mimic WS races or league races in order to practice/try strats.

I run hard difficulty and rubberbanding off. Maybe the rubberbanding settings are backwards but your mention of it is the first time I've ever heard anyone say that.

Don't know what other proof you need other than the screenshot I provided. My pace is very consistent, and if the AI is consistently lapping four seconds a lap better (which would prove my pace (and GTWS drivers as well) is the issue) how am I possibly winning? That's because the AI cheats and once it gets far enough back it gets a boost on the straights to keep it "close." Once it closes the gap to ~ five seconds it backs back off. Maybe this doesn't happen in pre-programmed 1P races, but it does in Custom races; try one, you'll see. Lame and lazy programing, IMO.

A 43.6 would have put you as the fastest player on the GTP leaderboard, you ran a 44.9. 674th place, still very impressive. Also never said you're "slow", chill out.

I just did a quick BoP custom race at Daytona just to see how it would go, no fuel, no tires, max difficulty, no boost, slip real, in the GR3 Viper, and was running about the same times... 44s-45s (fastest lap of 1:44.606) and beat the AI by three seconds over 5 laps.

Are you sure they weren't putting softs on? Taking the downforce out? Watching the replay has to give some insight as to whats going on there.

Custom races leave way too many variables to keep track of, but I still don't know how they would be pulling 41s with BoP on hards. Only thing I can think of is what i mentioned before, boost/rubberband settings are backwards/opposite/wrong.

All this just cements why I don't mess around with custom races much. They're never satisfying.

 

[Voodoovaj]

For some unknown reason PD only allows the cars you selected to be driven on the tires that they came with from Brand Central/Used Dealership. I tried making a custom race against a bunch of my 600pp cars and half of them switched back to Comfort series tires. I thought I would have a good race with 20 cars all running similar lap times. Turns out half the cars were slower by 10 seconds a lap. Made for a lot of rolling roadblocks. Thats why I don't recommend running custom races. They don't work like you want them to.

You would need to upload the cars from your garage. The custom race will use your cars in the tune they have in your garage IF you choose to use your garage cars. Otherwise, it just uses the dealer cars.

And yes, if you spin out in a custom race, the AI will slow down and wait for you. They don't do this to such an extreme in the standard races. But the AI will slow down a bit. They don't need to race as fast if you spin out since you are their only opponent. The AI aren't racing against each other. The AI of Gallo doesn't care if it beats the AI of Kokubun. It's just designed to beat you.

I don't understand why people think this. Again (I sound like a broken record, but I feel gaslit here) we have seen Sophy go fast enough to beat GT's best players, yet the in-game Sophy isn't anywhere near as fast. How do you think that's happened? How is it "designed to beat you" yet only 1, maybe 2 cars in that field can manage the monumental task of beating an average player?

If you pick a car that is way faster than the AI, of course you are going to slaughter them. But you choose what car you want to run. If it's a 600pp event and you find your 599.98pp car to win by 20 seconds at the end of the race, drop your PP level to 550 and see what that does. You will probably have a much more engaging race.

How are not seeing the contradiction in your statements? "It's just designed to beat you" but, at the same time you need to pick a slow car in order to have an interesting race. So, it's "designed to win" by being 50-100pp incompetent compared to you? It's "designed to win" if you make yourself easy to beat, and even so, you'll likely still beat the majority of the field.

Or, maybe, it's designed to lose.

 

[Talon16]

A 43.6 would have put you as the fastest player on the GTP leaderboard, you ran a 44.9. 674th place, still very impressive. Also never said you're "slow", chill out.

I just did a quick BoP custom race at Daytona just to see how it would go, no fuel, no tires, max difficulty, no boost, slip real, in the GR3 Viper, and was running about the same times... 44s-45s (fastest lap of 1:44.606) and beat the AI by three seconds over 5 laps.

Are you sure they weren't putting softs on? Taking the downforce out? Watching the replay has to give some insight as to whats going on there.

Custom races leave way too many variables to keep track of, but I still don't know how they would be pulling 41s with BoP on hards. Only thing I can think of is what i mentioned before, boost/rubberband settings are backwards/opposite/wrong.

All this just cements why I don't mess around with custom races much. They're never satisfying.

I am not sure where you got 44.9, my time is a 43.848... like I said.

You were questioning my pace, saying that's why the AI was catching me. So I was just trying to quantify that it's not my pace... it's the AI's crazy pace over a lap or so. A 41.0! It doesn't even make sense. Look at the GTWS race leader-boards right now; no one is under a 43 on RM tires, no tire wear, and minimal fuel... and the AI is doing a 41.0 on RH tires with tire wear and fuel load?

I did watch the replay from the AI's perspective. I mentioned that already and conveyed what I saw.

I am not sure what else to say. I've already given all the information I have. The Gr3 AI only runs RH tires; they will never run anything else. It was doing 10mph faster than my car down the straights. Maybe you need to do a longer race so you can get away from the AI more than what five laps will allow. In my 20 lap mock races, I pit on lap 10 and by lap 11-12 I am passed the AI car who hasn't pit; the AI will eventually pit as well (and take RH tires to be clear), so it's even that much farther behind. The farther back it is, the more it cheats? A 41.0 on RH is ridiculous, a World Tour driver couldn't touch that even if they were on RS tires.

But yea, Custom races are lame. I only use them to practice/check strats (tire wear, fuel usage, lap times, overall times, etc.) and get used to the length of the races. That is why I only run one AI car, any more than that and they really start getting in the way negating all the things I am trying to learn.

 

[Tommy_D]

You would need to upload the cars from your garage. The custom race will use your cars in the tune they have in your garage IF you choose to use your garage cars. Otherwise, it just uses the dealer cars.

I chose all cars from my garage with my own custom tunes. Last time I tried a custom race the game kept my tuning settings but swapped the tires back to the stock tires, not the ones I had with my tune.

I don't understand why people think this. Again (I sound like a broken record, but I feel gaslit here) we have seen Sophy go fast enough to beat GT's best players, yet the in-game Sophy isn't anywhere near as fast. How do you think that's happened? How is it "designed to beat you" yet only 1, maybe 2 cars in that field can manage the monumental task of beating an average player?

PD can set up the AI to run 5 second lap times if they want, but that would be completely unrealistic. Maybe when Sophy was first implemented they had it set up to be a bit quicker than it is now. Just like with the other updates, things get changed where the AI is sometimes faster and sometimes slower. Sophy may have gotten a bit slower overall but the AI, in general, has gotten faster overall in the races and the PP changes that have come with the updates has also made your PP levels much higher, forcing you to detune your cars to get within the regulations. As an example, the Tokyo 600 grind race used to be easily won with a 27:15 race time. I've run it in the last month and I lost to Kokubun who ran a 26:47. That's nearly a 30 second difference, or 2.5 seconds/lap faster.

How are not seeing the contradiction in your statements? "It's just designed to beat you" but, at the same time you need to pick a slow car in order to have an interesting race. So, it's "designed to win" by being 50-100pp incompetent compared to you? It's "designed to win" if you make yourself easy to beat, and even so, you'll likely still beat the majority of the field.

Or, maybe, it's designed to lose.

It's not a contradiction at all. The AI doesn't race to race against itself. Thats why it slows down and speeds up based on your pace. The AI isn't a human player playing against other human players like in sport mode. No one slows down and waits for players when they spin out in sport mode. There are still 15 other drivers each human player is trying to beat. The AI is only racing against you. So, if you spin out there is no real need for it to race at its peak pace. If the leader is 30 seconds in front of you, there is no need for it to run at it's peak pace. However, if you are coming at it at a fast pace, it will step up to its peak race pace and give you the best challenge it can.

That said, the "suggested" PP ratings for some of the races are a bit generous if you are a good driver. Using a well tuned 600pp car in a suggested 600pp race could put a good driver in first place after lap 3 on a 4 lap race. An average driver could get first place half way through the last lap. A beginner may only achieve 5th or 9th place.

A good driver may complain that the AI sucks or that it is "designed to lose". Or they could try making an adjustment to the PP level of their car to add in more of a challenge. My video I posted above was a suggested 600pp race. I used a mostly stock Mercedes AMG safety car tuned to 596.68pp. This particular race was a good challenge for this car with it's mostly stock setup. I could have taken my Boss 429 with it's crazy 600pp setup and crushed the competition, but that wouldn't have been as fun.

GT7 isn't perfect. And for some it is not challenging enough. If that's how you feel you have some options, 1) Reduce the PP levels of your car to make the races more challenging, 2) Drive only in sport mode against human opponents that won't slow down if you spin out, or 3) find a different game that is harder. I also have ACC and it is definitely more challenging. It is also dreadfully boring.

 

[Alfa Romeo GT]

I don't understand this obsession of the developers with letting the player win.
Why don't they propose an Sophy AI in “realistic” or “alien” difficulty for those who want a real race? (like in the beta)

The fact that devs work for years on a revolutionary AI (sophy) so that even on the hardest tracks you can clearly see it slowing down (especially in the straight line at the man on the last lap) completely undermines immersion.

 

[Watzlaw]

This overhyped Sophy bot should learn from Live for Speed.

 

[NevilleNobody]

Not sure how we got to Ai but I just did the Viper challenge at Daytona and the AI is infuriating. Their corner exit speeds are absolutely nuts, they just vanish up the road only to be reeled in again on the straights. But I can live with that quirk, it's the shoving me off the road that drives me insane. They religiously stick tot he designated "line" and god help you if you're on it, I was barged off several times, it was very frustrating. I had "won" the corner already, they don't try and pass, they don't make moves they are just on rails pushing you off the track. Crazy dumb.

 

[LSFDRX]

I am not sure where you got 44.9, my time is a 43.848... like I said.

My bad, I thought you were talking about the recent TT at Daytona where the Gr3 Viper was a good option.

Not sure how we got to Ai but I just did the Viper challenge at Daytona and the AI is infuriating. Their corner exit speeds are absolutely nuts, they just vanish up the road only to be reeled in again on the straights. But I can live with that quirk, it's the shoving me off the road that drives me insane. They religiously stick tot he designated "line" and god help you if you're on it, I was barged off several times, it was very frustrating. I had "won" the corner already, they don't try and pass, they don't make moves they are just on rails pushing you off the track. Crazy dumb.

Work on your corner exit speed. They are quick, but there is much you can do about it. I've done the race twice in a stock Gr3 Viper on RM and never got shoved around, but I also take into account how the AI operates and make sure I'm not in their way.

Try and predict what they're going to do, and make sure you're not where they are going to be.

 

[benjoi84]

From another thread where I posted 6 months ago.,

I'm no expert, but I would imagine "you have to let your players win, quite a lot of the time" is 'Triple A Videogame Design 101' mantra.

That's why crushingly hard games are often released by indie developers.

I don't understand why we just can't have more difficulty options, though.