Is the Genesis X Gr 3 going to be the first (and only?) electric Gr 3/4 car in Gran Turismo?

[Magog]

I wish they'd just make an EV race Group. Use the VGT program or something to get manufacturers to design a bunch of GT3-ish EVs, magic up some supercapacitivehighpressureflywheelbatterytrons that charge to full in 30-60 seconds and call it a day. It'd be ********, but at least it'd be ******** in the name of making an interesting class of cars a viable racing series.

They should do that. They haven't confirmed Tesla is coming back for GT7 but I think it's a safe bet. I can't imagine they wouldn't try like hell to get every car from Sport into 7 since the modelling is done

I very highly doubt an EV would ever be in Gr. 3. All Nations and Manu faces always have fuel consumption turned on, and currently, EVs don't have their battery life simulated in GTS, meaning they'll never need to pit for "fuel". Even if the battery life is simulated, EVs cannot "refuel" quickly in the pits. I think most production EVs require at least 20 minutes for a quick charge with a specialised charging station. You could fill up a GT3's 100ℓ tank in just over 14 seconds if you use the default 7ℓ/s rate.

I know the Audi e-tron proves otherwise, but most EVs really don't have the top speed to be viable in Gr. 3. The Taycan, even with 2 gears, tops out at 264km/h. I don't remember if the Model S can even break 200.

Model S goes 200mph or 321kph

The 8 fastest electric cars you can buy now, ranked by top speed and 0-60

Though speed limits in the US max out at 85 mph, folks still want to know how fast cars can go. Here's a list of the fastest EVs ranked by top speed.

www.inverse.com

 

[Quakebass]

Model S goes 200mph or 321kph

The 8 fastest electric cars you can buy now, ranked by top speed and 0-60

Though speed limits in the US max out at 85 mph, folks still want to know how fast cars can go. Here's a list of the fastest EVs ranked by top speed.

www.inverse.com

That’s the top end Plaid edition. The version currently in the game is the first gen model, in fact only the 2nd production year. That one I don’t think can even reach 150.

I think EV’s have the potential for use in wider Motorsport very soon, charging solutions are becoming better and better. I’m not sure if anyone’s done up a fully serious EV GT race car and compared it to an existing ICE GT race car, I’d imagine the torque would give a big acceleration advantage but it’d lose out on top end and weight. It’d seem feasable to be parable on raw pace, but I have no idea how they’d balance recharging with ICE vehicles in longer form races.

 

[MIE1992]

I don't think that just because the actual Genesis X Concept is electric will mean that the Gr.3 version will be, as well. In GT Sport already, there are several cars with both an all-electric version, and a hybrid version for an actual group like Gr.1. For examples, the VGTs from Hyundai and Audi. (On a side note, I'm hoping the Jaguar VGT SV will be in Gr.1 this way, either by being in there to begin with, or by having a full-electric Gr.X version released alongside a hybrid Gr.1 version.)

 

[Doomotron]

I doubt it given that electric cars can't losr energy in GT Sport.

I think the larger issue is 'refuelling' these electric cars. Charging an EV is a very different process to refueling a normal car. I wonder, is the Hyundai N2025 Gr1 hydrogen powered? Hydrogen is a rather similar experience to petrol and diesel, so I could see hydrogen cars being used in Gr3.

I’d probably point more to the wacky Peugeot VGT. The VW is based on a real world(concept) car. Same with the RX-V and few others. Hey, Lotus made an open top GT4 racer.

I'd say the Peugeot was more realistic, despite it not being real.

 

[ScottPuss20]

@Magog do you know anything about Group 3 at all? It's pretty much the same as GT3 in the real world which does NOT allow electric vehicles to compete. GT will not make any allowances for this under any circumstances so forget it.

 

[daan]

GT will not make any allowances for this under any circumstances so forget it.

Group 3 and 4 are not real and PD can do what they want with them, as proven by the open topped Group 3 VW and the FWD & 4WD Group 4 cars.

They may be based on real life but the examples above show that PD has made allowances before, and we certainly don't know what allowances they'll make in the future.

 

[MIE1992]

Group 3 and 4 are not real and PD can do what they want with them, as proven by the open topped Group 3 VW and the FWD & 4WD Group 4 cars.

They may be based on real life but the examples above show that PD has made allowances before, and we certainly don't know what allowances they'll make in the future.

Right, but if full-electric models are added to any of the major groups (i.e. Gr.4, Gr.3, Gr.B, Gr.1, and Gr.2) then I wonder how races with fuel consumption enabled would work. I think the Genesis Concept X road car will be fully electric, but not the Gr.3 version, which I think will much likelier be a hybrid, or maybe even fully ICE-powered.

 

[tankuroded]

Also if anyone remembers about it, the N 2025 was made no longer a pure EV for Gr.1 (the aspiration on it is listed as NA).

 

[XSquareStickIt]

I previously mentioned how races involving fuel consumption wouldn't work with EVs because they cannot recharge in the pits quickly enough. Assuming though that GT7 includes a fictional feature wherein it lets EVs recharge their batteries in the pits at a rate that can rival the refueling times of an ICE, there's still a big problem of range and mass. I'll let Engineering Explained, a.k.a. Jason Fenske, explain why EVs aren't suitable to share a racetrack with EVs. The meat and potatoes of the argument is is from 1:22 to 6:32, but I highly recommend watching the video in its entirety.

​

In short, even when assuming the best energy density of lithium ion batteries, a pure EV car would need thirteen times the volume and FIFTY TIMES the mass to have the same amount of energy as a pure ICE car, making the heavier EV car much less energy efficient to move around. Using the Audi e-tron VGT as an example, it weighs 1,450kg, which may get heavier if we create BoP to accommodate the heavier EV cars. The heaviest car in Gr. 3 currently with BoP applied is the Atenza at 1,356kg, or 106% of its original mass. To even out tyre wear rates and cornering speeds to compete closely with EVs, the entirety of Gr. 3 would have to put on another hundred kilos or so, which in my opinion does the sport no favours.

Even if we were to assume that we can fully charge an EV in the pits in roughly the same duration as refueling a GT3 car's tank (14 seconds, as I previously stated), the EV car wouldn't go very far before needing yet another pit stop to recharge. Back in Gran Turismo 5, the 2008 Tesla Roadster could almost do two whole laps of the Nordschleife flat out before running out of juice. In comparison, you could run a typical Gr. 3 car flat out around the longer 24h layout for ten laps, taking into account the 2x fuel use in the latest manufacturers' race.

​

In other words, not only would an EV need to charge much, much faster, but they would also need to have their battery use reduced by an absurd amount to compete with ICE GT3s.

I understand that my comparisons are awful: different tracks, different cars, different eras, different games entirely. I'd love to know the Audi e-tron Vision Gran Turismo's range flat out, but I can't seem to find much of anything with a quick Google search, and of course GTS doesn't simulate battery use in an EV.

Between the colossal mass handicap of EVs, their woeful range, and how they cannot recharge in the pits, I really cannot see how they can share a category with ICE cars, not unless fuel/ battery use is disabled entirely for all FIA races, and if you use BoP to make IC cars as heavy as some of the heavier EVs. And those both suck for the sport IMO.

 

[Magog]

I previously mentioned how races involving fuel consumption wouldn't work with EVs because they cannot recharge in the pits quickly enough. Assuming though that GT7 includes a fictional feature wherein it lets EVs recharge their batteries in the pits at a rate that can rival the refueling times of an ICE, there's still a big problem of range and mass. I'll let Engineering Explained, a.k.a. Jason Fenske, explain why EVs aren't suitable to share a racetrack with EVs. The meat and potatoes of the argument is is from 1:22 to 6:32, but I highly recommend watching the video in its entirety.

​

In short, even when assuming the best energy density of lithium ion batteries, a pure EV car would need thirteen times the volume and FIFTY TIMES the mass to have the same amount of energy as a pure ICE car, making the heavier EV car much less energy efficient to move around. Using the Audi e-tron VGT as an example, it weighs 1,450kg, which may get heavier if we create BoP to accommodate the heavier EV cars. The heaviest car in Gr. 3 currently with BoP applied is the Atenza at 1,356kg, or 106% of its original mass. To even out tyre wear rates and cornering speeds to compete closely with EVs, the entirety of Gr. 3 would have to put on another hundred kilos or so, which in my opinion does the sport no favours.

Even if we were to assume that we can fully charge an EV in the pits in roughly the same duration as refueling a GT3 car's tank (14 seconds, as I previously stated), the EV car wouldn't go very far before needing yet another pit stop to recharge. Back in Gran Turismo 5, the 2008 Tesla Roadster could almost do two whole laps of the Nordschleife flat out before running out of juice. In comparison, you could run a typical Gr. 3 car flat out around the longer 24h layout for ten laps, taking into account the 2x fuel use in the latest manufacturers' race.

​

In other words, not only would an EV need to charge much, much faster, but they would also need to have their battery use reduced by an absurd amount to compete with ICE GT3s.

I understand that my comparisons are awful: different tracks, different cars, different eras, different games entirely. I'd love to know the Audi e-tron Vision Gran Turismo's range flat out, but I can't seem to find much of anything with a quick Google search, and of course GTS doesn't simulate battery use in an EV.

Between the colossal mass handicap of EVs, their woeful range, and how they cannot recharge in the pits, I really cannot see how they can share a category with ICE cars, not unless fuel/ battery use is disabled entirely for all FIA races, and if you use BoP to make IC cars as heavy as some of the heavier EVs. And those both suck for the sport IMO.

EVs aren't standing still. They are much more energy efficient and battery power density keeps increasing.

From Mercedes latest concept car:

"In this case, efficiency means a focus on weight, drivetrain capabilities, and aerodynamics, among other factors. The roughly 150 kW electric drivetrain, for example, is 95% efficient, Mercedes claims. That means 95% of the energy from the battery ends up at the VISION EQXX’s wheels – in comparison to just 30% of the energy from an internal combustion drivetrain.

Mercedes’ borrowed the power electronics unit from the Mercedes-AMG Project ONE hypercar, and then combined it with next-gen silicon carbides and a whole new battery pack design. It offers just shy of 100 kWh of usable energy but with a density of nearly 400 Wh/l: that’s about the same energy as the Mercedes-Benz EQS luxury electric sedan has, but in a pack that’s half the size and 30% lighter."

Mercedes-Benz VISION EQXX Is A 620+ Mile EV That Takes An Exciting Road To Range

Mercedes-Benz promised new EVs with much longer range, and now the VISION EQXX - capable of driving more than 620 miles on a charge -…

www.slashgear.com

 

[RACECAR]

I don't know why everyone hates the Peugeot at least it has a closed top .

Having driven it in both the Closed Beta and the full game, I just wasn't a fan of how it behaved. I haven't driven it in quite sometime but when I did, it felt somehow both kind of understeery AND skiddish at the same time (My nightmare combo) and it made the Circuit Experience a frustrating time.

 

[George Jakob]

I think the larger issue is 'refuelling' these electric cars. Charging an EV is a very different process to refueling a normal car.

If i recall it was possible in GT5/6 and they could refuel faster than ICE cars.

I wonder, is the Hyundai N2025 Gr1 hydrogen powered?

Yes.

Having driven it in both the Closed Beta and the full game, I just wasn't a fan of how it behaved.

Understandable , i was referring to the "Its not real" etc hate.

and it made the Circuit Experience a frustrating time.

Indeed the handling in CE seems very different.
P.S My apologies for the super late reply.

 

[05XR8]

There’d probably need to be a new category for such a car

FIA announces groundbreaking Electric GT category

The FIA has announced the creation of all-new technical regulations for electric-powered GT cars, featuring several technical innovations, including fast charging

www.fia.com

Now, with Subaru showing their own future concept.

Subaru's 1,073-HP STI E-RA Concept Takes Center Stage In Tokyo

Subaru Tecnica International has gone electric at the 2022 Tokyo Auto Salon with STI E-RA and Solterra STI concepts.

www.motor1.com

GTS has three open wheel categories and the two Red Bull cars. Offering another One Make E-GT or a couple concepts, wouldn’t be difficult.

 

[Kalder]

There’d probably need to be a new category for such a car

FIA announces groundbreaking Electric GT category

The FIA has announced the creation of all-new technical regulations for electric-powered GT cars, featuring several technical innovations, including fast charging

www.fia.com

Now, with Subaru showing their own future concept.

Subaru's 1,073-HP STI E-RA Concept Takes Center Stage In Tokyo

Subaru Tecnica International has gone electric at the 2022 Tokyo Auto Salon with STI E-RA and Solterra STI concepts.

www.motor1.com

GTS has three open wheel categories and the two Red Bull cars. Offering another One Make E-GT or a couple concepts, wouldn’t be difficult.

I think I would appreciate a GT-E class, or Gr.E in GT terms.

 

[Rezz77]

@Magog do you know anything about Group 3 at all? It's pretty much the same as GT3 in the real world which does NOT allow electric vehicles to compete. GT will not make any allowances for this under any circumstances so forget it.

Well monkey, if you ever tuned into 2021 lemans they are making a new class for the electric GT cars and Subaru has made a proof of concept car for said series (FIA has confirmed it as well)

 

[pedrocor]

Gr. 3 isn't called GT3 (or Gr. 4 called GT4), as the name is trademarked by Stephane Ratel, every championship in the world who wants to use the name as to pay him, including FIA.
Apart from that, is the same thing, yes, there are fictional cars in the class just to have more representation of the OEMs in the game, but the spirit of the regulations is present, in things like:

• All the cars are RWD, even if they are AWD in road version, like Nissan GT-R or Bentley Continental
• The cars can only be powered by ICE, any other form of power can't be used, like Honda/Acura NSX had to remove the hybrid system from their GT3
• 4WS also forbidden, so no torque vectoring, the next gen FIA GT3 version of Porsche 911, based on the 992 will not have it, despite the GT3 road car and Cup version having it.

So, not seeing how the Genesis would do it on all electric. But it would be fun on races with fuel usage. It would give an all new meaning to the "too long pit stops" in GT7

 

[pedrocor]

I think I would appreciate a GT-E class, or Gr.E in GT terms.

Well, they already have FIA Electric TCR, the 2022 seasen kicked off this weekend at street circuit of Pau, France.
Basically TCR based silluette RWD with 670hp (500kW) eletric engines, so more powerfull than the proposed 435 kW engines to this GT.
At Pau they are about 1.5 seconds slower than a standard FWD 350hp TCR car, on a 80 seconds lap.
The longest race of the weekend to the electric boy was 8 laps, about 1/3 of a 23 lap (21 laps +2 added because of Safety Car) than regular TCR cars.

Also the races are very boring, which they shouldn't as they are very short.

 

[Tenacious D]

Electric is the future.

This is a future I'm not going to play in. Not only are the batteries crazy expensive to replace, every charge ages them, and you have to do silly charge / discharge rhythms to extend their lives. But still, it's a steady degradation to the need to replace them in a costly swap. Any government subsidies are going to end up costing everyone even more in taxes. Er... are going?

Plus, they aren't green anyway, since we have no fusion power plants, very few nuclear, almost no green energy solutions online. Which leaves the vast majority of... coal plants. You're actually wanting coal powered cars.

Let me add before I come across as a gas sniffing luddite that the future is indeed in alternative power solutions. It may be a while, but it depends on whatever dazzling breakthroughs in materials and energy research come about, perhaps fueled by the Technological Singularity or alien contact or whatever is in store for this planet. But they have to mature a lot more, because right now electric cars are cumbersome, tedious, time consuming and expensive. And you have to plan on how to use them like airlines do with their airliners, unless you're a shut in which drives once a week.

 

[Doomotron]

Gr. 3 isn't called GT3 (or Gr. 4 called GT4), as the name is trademarked by Stephane Ratel, every championship in the world who wants to use the name as to pay him, including FIA.
Apart from that, is the same thing, yes, there are fictional cars in the class just to have more representation of the OEMs in the game, but the spirit of the regulations is present, in things like:

• All the cars are RWD, even if they are AWD in road version, like Nissan GT-R or Bentley Continental
• The cars can only be powered by ICE, any other form of power can't be used, like Honda/Acura NSX had to remove the hybrid system from their GT3
• 4WS also forbidden, so no torque vectoring, the next gen FIA GT3 version of Porsche 911, based on the 992 will not have it, despite the GT3 road car and Cup version having it.

So, not seeing how the Genesis would do it on all electric. But it would be fun on races with fuel usage. It would give an all new meaning to the "too long pit stops" in GT7

However, it does ignore regulations from GT3, most notably the ban on open-top cars.

This is a future I'm not going to play in. Not only are the batteries crazy expensive to replace, every charge ages them, and you have to do silly charge / discharge rhythms to extend their lives. But still, it's a steady degradation to the need to replace them in a costly swap. Any government subsidies are going to end up costing everyone even more in taxes. Er... are going?

Plus, they aren't green anyway, since we have no fusion power plants, very few nuclear, almost no green energy solutions online. Which leaves the vast majority of... coal plants. You're actually wanting coal powered cars.

Let me add before I come across as a gas sniffing luddite that the future is indeed in alternative power solutions. It may be a while, but it depends on whatever dazzling breakthroughs in materials and energy research come about, perhaps fueled by the Technological Singularity or alien contact or whatever is in store for this planet. But they have to mature a lot more, because right now electric cars are cumbersome, tedious, time consuming and expensive. And you have to plan on how to use them like airlines do with their airliners, unless you're a shut in which drives once a week.

Based

 

[Magog]

This is a future I'm not going to play in. Not only are the batteries crazy expensive to replace, every charge ages them, and you have to do silly charge / discharge rhythms to extend their lives. But still, it's a steady degradation to the need to replace them in a costly swap. Any government subsidies are going to end up costing everyone even more in taxes. Er... are going?

Plus, they aren't green anyway, since we have no fusion power plants, very few nuclear, almost no green energy solutions online. Which leaves the vast majority of... coal plants. You're actually wanting coal powered cars.

Let me add before I come across as a gas sniffing luddite that the future is indeed in alternative power solutions. It may be a while, but it depends on whatever dazzling breakthroughs in materials and energy research come about, perhaps fueled by the Technological Singularity or alien contact or whatever is in store for this planet. But they have to mature a lot more, because right now electric cars are cumbersome, tedious, time consuming and expensive. And you have to plan on how to use them like airlines do with their airliners, unless you're a shut in which drives once a week.

There are LOTS of green energy plants currently and in production. Coal is going the way of the dodo.