Is this how damage should be?
- Thread starter Fyshokid
- 115 comments
- 7,961 views
Peter
(Banned)
- 4,352
- pj-gm
- lol not happening
GRID online= punter city
Punters in GRID are different from punters in GT5P, they stand in the middle of the straight to total your car when you drive by and they win because they get hit on the side and you can't get totaled from a side collision in GRID easily and total you thus winning the races. Damage online in GT5 will result in the same thing unless the ghost is applied.
Punters in GRID are different from punters in GT5P, they stand in the middle of the straight to total your car when you drive by and they win because they get hit on the side and you can't get totaled from a side collision in GRID easily and total you thus winning the races. Damage online in GT5 will result in the same thing unless the ghost is applied.
No matter how perfect the damage will be, people will always find ways to exploit it, until a giant spike shoots out from the PS3 and impales you when you crash, people won't care if they wreck a car in a game. The best thing that could happen is like you said, friends lists in GT5 where you can arrange races with just your friends, so you know you won't be meddling with idiots who just want to mess around.
- 7,830
- U S A
- Tetsumura
- Nigel Fox
Okay now, Mr Perfect.
You might not know, but many, many races, driven by those who are top of their field, have lost a winning race on the last few laps because of an unfortunate mistake. Real life - as well as video games - have a way of humbling us all, so you might want to take this back, unless you can prove that you've raced for 24 hours without an error.
Just to reiterate once more, you damage fans are acting like it's a done deal, slam dunk, in the bag and on the Blu-Ray for GT5. I wouldn't count your engines before they're blown.
- 924
Somehow, I get this image of Kubica and Vettel tangling in Australia...
Note: 24-hour races are usually teams of 3 or 4 drivers who drive 6 to 8 hour shifts... but that is pretty commendable either way.
Everyone knows that, because it's a difficult task and no amount of GT playing could really prepare you for it. GT just teaches you about driving, it doesn't waste time simulating all the ****** aspects of driving like having to pee and poo in your pants or the noise or the terror or the G forces and the exhaustion. GT should stick to doing what it does best.
- 7,830
- U S A
- Tetsumura
- Nigel Fox
Assuming damage makes it in at release, I'm definitely turning damage off for the first endurance races - I can't remember if I said that here. Fighting the game, the improved physics, and the patience factor of a few hours of racing are handful enough when I just want to clear the race and take one more step towards completing GT5. Adding the frustration of damage to make me restart is just not what I'm looking forward to. After that, damage would be fine.
And I'm still befuddled as to whether damage is going to be there at release. Would Kazunori-dono The Perfectionist be satisfied to put partial Forza-like damage in GT5 to satisfy fans clamoring for it? Will he tell us to wait for a much better patch? And I doubt that a build with a partial damage system would be able to be patched well, so I'm thinking we're stuck with one or the other.
Which is he going to choose?
And I'm still befuddled as to whether damage is going to be there at release. Would Kazunori-dono The Perfectionist be satisfied to put partial Forza-like damage in GT5 to satisfy fans clamoring for it? Will he tell us to wait for a much better patch? And I doubt that a build with a partial damage system would be able to be patched well, so I'm thinking we're stuck with one or the other.
Which is he going to choose?
- 1,230
Because I want to play a simulator, not a racing career, simple as. Do you know what a simulator does? It gives you the same experience as in real life. If you're avoiding damage, you're not looking for a simulator, you're just looking for a driving game. If that's what you want, fine, that's your preference. I prefer a real driving simulator.
The problem is not the damage modeling, it's the punters. Finding the cheaters and punish them accordingly; that's the challenge. If Turn 10 comes up with the perfect algorithm to catch the punters, then the damage issue won't be a problem....Except for Polyphony, which would have to play second fiddle to Turn 10 because instead of trying to find a solution to the problem, they dodged it indefinitely.
Okay now, Mr Perfect.
You might not know, but many, many races, driven by those who are top of their field, have lost a winning race on the last few laps because of an unfortunate mistake. Real life - as well as video games - have a way of humbling us all, so you might want to take this back, unless you can prove that you've raced for 24 hours without an error.
No, you misunderstood me. I wasn't trying to say I make no mistakes - God knows I've made my share. Every driver does, like you said.
The difference is that in real life, nobody whines about how an "insignificant" mistake cost them the race, or how "unfair" it is to lose that way (ahem, ahem) and such...S#!+ happens, if I make a mistake, I own up to the consequences and try again, regardless of when or how it happened.
However, I can see a flood of YouTube replay clips and PhotoMode pictures of Biblical proportions that would kill all the bandwidth of the world if such damage model would be implemented in game with graphic quality such as GT.
Nobody would drive the cars, everybody would be just smashing them. Frankly, it would lead to nowhere
And somehow I'd appreciated more if PD would use all resources spent on such damage-model into other things - day/night circles, weather changes, interactive environments, race-data processing and so on.
Hi amar212. Very interesting post. So you believe that if there was realistic damage of this calibre in GT5 people would no play the game any more and just crash into each other? I don't think people are quite that bad. There are games with fantastic damage like DIRT and GRID (shame about the driving physics) and their videos haven't flooded YouTube...
There would be people that would crash for the fun of it, but there would be a lot less of this rear ramming we see now in GT5P, if it meant that the culprit as well as the rammed would be out of the race due to terminal damage. As everywhere there would be trouble makers but they'd only be able to ruin someone's race once, rather than getting away with it over and over again, like now.
I respect your wishes for day/night circles, weather and race data. But I would love to see a really fantastic and exciting damage model implemented in GT5.👍
I'm not sure about others but most GT5 fans like me that I know have wanted damage in the GT games for the last decade. It's the number one feature I hear being requested...
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- 4,004
- Croatia
To be perfectly honest, from my experience on usenet, no#1 feature that people want from Gran Turismo series in far not damage but working reverse lights. Until GT4 it was 3D spectators and 3D rims, and at this point it is again not damage but skidmarks and tyremarks.
Damage is on the list sure, but not at the top. Which speaks for itself more than anything.
However, I see damage as feature I'd like, but only after all other things are done. And there are many far more important issues to be met before damage should come to table.
But than again, maybe my problem is that I like to race clean, all of my freinds are racing clean, we have no intent ro race one single race in the Public Lobby once the Privete Lobbies are introduced so we see no real point in visible damage on the cars.
Only damage I want to see is mechanical damage as seen in TOCA 3. It would do more than enough.
Until then, tyre damage is just fine - we could live with it for the next 10 years since this way or another we would pull at side after slightly serious crash, as we did in numeruos sesions of GT4 LAN races we had in past 5 years.
as far as i am concerned this kind of damage is excellent, it makes you watch out how you drive.If we are getting private lobbies then it would be perfect. Two or three or four times, while i was racing in rfactor league, i made a mistake and crash. One time during the warm up lap, putting some heat on tires, i overdid it with to much throttle and i spun and hit the wall, car was pretty damaged and i had to start the race from the pit. you can imagine my frustration, i have been practicing whole week for that race. But in the end i managed to come 11th out of 30 drivers, and it was rewording at the end.
You would be surprised how 30 drivers can behave, and drive by the rules in warm up, or later during the race, when you have penalty system (in game, and after on replays). we had judges that would watch replay and complaints from other drivers. My point is that with private lobby all of this can help to race cleanly,even with the damage, of course mistakes happen but then you pay the consequences.
But there should be also option for damage, to turn it of if you want to have fun.
So i am all for damage, bring it on :-)
You would be surprised how 30 drivers can behave, and drive by the rules in warm up, or later during the race, when you have penalty system (in game, and after on replays). we had judges that would watch replay and complaints from other drivers. My point is that with private lobby all of this can help to race cleanly,even with the damage, of course mistakes happen but then you pay the consequences.
But there should be also option for damage, to turn it of if you want to have fun.
So i am all for damage, bring it on :-)
Doesn't look too real, cars with carbon body crashes like this, not with metall one.
Burnout Paradise has an excellent visual damage model already, not too hard to implement in GT5 I guess. In this case it will beat Forza 2 by far, this 200 mph Forza crashes are very doubtful to say the least.
- 202
- YossiGab , GTP_YossiGab
Hi,
First - Those video crashes doesn't seems real at all. They looks very exaggerated, the metal pieces are all around. In most cases, when car hit a tree for example, its metal will bend much, the window will break but you won't see so many fractions all over (most will be glasses and rear-light-plastics). Also the car seems like it have some kind of "wings" or driving in 1000km/h with those "air jumps". Look in youtube for some real crash videos and you will understand.
Second - regarding damage in GT5.
I don't think that this level of damage will help the game. Keep in mind that the purpose of game is to drive & race !!! and not to crash.
As other people said, if crashes will be eye-catching that it will be more "derby" than clean driving and racing.
I think that more important is mechanical damage and not visual damage.
In this I mean like these:
1) If someone is driving his car in 1st gear with top RPM for long period of time than the engine will heat up until it eventually breaks.
2) If one is rail-driving/driving then the wheel will bent in a way that steering will be hard
3) If one is trying to short-cut through grass/ground - the car will get hit and won't be stable in turns
4) If one is doing break-check to someone else and the second guy hit him from behind then the rear wing/wheels will bend and disturb high speed
5) some basic stuff like tyre wear (was in previous games) - should be more accurate like if driver is driving slower for long time then the wheel is better again. Also fuel - in long races need to chose how much fuel - if lot of fuel then the car is heavy but need less stops.
6) etc. etc. etc.
7) In general - the point is not to show great damage for the eyes, it is to simulate a race damage !!! This will eliminate punters because their cars will get broken and thus will be harder for them follow the good drivers.
It is important to mention that all those damages could be fixed in the pit-stop, so if one broke his car, he can drive (slow...) to the pit-stop and after some repair time (depends on the damage) the car will be fixed. This of course is only good in long races, because in smaller ones the race will be over before you get to the pit-stop.
First - Those video crashes doesn't seems real at all. They looks very exaggerated, the metal pieces are all around. In most cases, when car hit a tree for example, its metal will bend much, the window will break but you won't see so many fractions all over (most will be glasses and rear-light-plastics). Also the car seems like it have some kind of "wings" or driving in 1000km/h with those "air jumps". Look in youtube for some real crash videos and you will understand.
Second - regarding damage in GT5.
I don't think that this level of damage will help the game. Keep in mind that the purpose of game is to drive & race !!! and not to crash.
As other people said, if crashes will be eye-catching that it will be more "derby" than clean driving and racing.
I think that more important is mechanical damage and not visual damage.
In this I mean like these:
1) If someone is driving his car in 1st gear with top RPM for long period of time than the engine will heat up until it eventually breaks.
2) If one is rail-driving/driving then the wheel will bent in a way that steering will be hard
3) If one is trying to short-cut through grass/ground - the car will get hit and won't be stable in turns
4) If one is doing break-check to someone else and the second guy hit him from behind then the rear wing/wheels will bend and disturb high speed
5) some basic stuff like tyre wear (was in previous games) - should be more accurate like if driver is driving slower for long time then the wheel is better again. Also fuel - in long races need to chose how much fuel - if lot of fuel then the car is heavy but need less stops.
6) etc. etc. etc.
7) In general - the point is not to show great damage for the eyes, it is to simulate a race damage !!! This will eliminate punters because their cars will get broken and thus will be harder for them follow the good drivers.
It is important to mention that all those damages could be fixed in the pit-stop, so if one broke his car, he can drive (slow...) to the pit-stop and after some repair time (depends on the damage) the car will be fixed. This of course is only good in long races, because in smaller ones the race will be over before you get to the pit-stop.
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You're wrong, damage doesn't make GT5 a simulator. Like others have said, damage is a way to keep people from ruining everyone else's race. Besides, you really do need to tone down on the elitist attitude, I'm sorry to say. If someone enters a 24 hour race in GT5, they want to win, they don't want to lose it on the 23rd hour because it's realistic. That's not realistic, that's just plain stupid and it's called wasting 23 hours of your time, and reality check, they couldn't careless whether they have your approval or not.
Anyways, damage would be a nice feature, but it's nowhere near as important as you make it out to be, you make it seem like it's the end all be all for GT5, if it doesn't have it, then OMG the world will end, no, damage is actually pretty low on the list of things that are important to GT. Like Amar said, weather changes and other driving enhancing features are much more important than damage. I'll personally only be happy with damage if weather is also in the game. Really, if all you want is damage, then you should stop hanging around a GT forum and go play forza 2 or something.
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@vaioleto
I totally disagree. Damage makes you race clean. Damage will prevent urban circuits to become a pinball game and will make you think twice before you overtake.
Damage doesn't make GT5 a simulator, but no damage makes it arcadeish.
I think you look at it from a wrong perspective really. Forget about the people that will take the main straight in the wrong way to cause a carnage. This is not the people you will be racing with since you will have a private lobby. This people is not the excuse to say damage is not important, that it will ruin the game, or that there are other things 'first' on the 'list'.
That's just your opinion, keep that in mind. Others could argue playing a 24h race is stupid in itself. Others that they just play 24h for the fun, not just winning at all costs. Others will appreciate the fact that a mistake can still ruin your previous 23h.
I think this was totally uncalled for.
I totally disagree. Damage makes you race clean. Damage will prevent urban circuits to become a pinball game and will make you think twice before you overtake.
Damage doesn't make GT5 a simulator, but no damage makes it arcadeish.
I think you look at it from a wrong perspective really. Forget about the people that will take the main straight in the wrong way to cause a carnage. This is not the people you will be racing with since you will have a private lobby. This people is not the excuse to say damage is not important, that it will ruin the game, or that there are other things 'first' on the 'list'.
That's just your opinion, keep that in mind. Others could argue playing a 24h race is stupid in itself. Others that they just play 24h for the fun, not just winning at all costs. Others will appreciate the fact that a mistake can still ruin your previous 23h.
I think this was totally uncalled for.
- 4,004
- Croatia
My point comes from perspective of harware-limitations and hardware-resources.
I'd always sign for mechanical damage over visual one in order to use the resources used for visual damage in other more important fields for the game.
Fixed-hardware resources - such consoles - are always limited and I'd love to see many more things in visual departmnet that could make a greater overall experience than flying debris, ripped-off tyres and such - with same amount of usage of RAM.
We'll discuss this in person this way or another
I'd always sign for mechanical damage over visual one in order to use the resources used for visual damage in other more important fields for the game.
Fixed-hardware resources - such consoles - are always limited and I'd love to see many more things in visual departmnet that could make a greater overall experience than flying debris, ripped-off tyres and such - with same amount of usage of RAM.
We'll discuss this in person this way or another
GT was never about being so anal about punishing you for the tiniest mistakes. Kaz himself says that he designed GT so that if you crash, you can keep racing, that's why it can appeal to so many newbies and eventually raise them to become serious drivers, because it isn't so eager to kick you in the ass.
I hate the mechanisms in GTR and Forza 2, it's like these games are so eager to punish you if you make one tiny mistake to show you how incompetent you are, that's just pure snobbery. GT is a simulator, but it's also a game, I like how it doesn't take itself so seriously that it decides to put you in your place every chance it gets.
Personally I'd never do a 24 hour race unless a bunch of my friends are staying over and we take turns driving or something, but doing 24 hours by yourself is just masochistic.
Most importantly, people should remember that GT is a GAME most and foremost, it shouldn't sacrifice the fun factor just so it can claim to be realistic in one way or another. If you are adept at driving, you'll find that GT scales to match your driving. From my perspective, I see people clamouring for damage want it only so they can engage in a dick comparing contest with people who play "rival" racing games. But maybe there's something wrong with me since I never really needed the game to FORCE me to race clean to race clean.
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- 4,004
- Croatia
Damage of mechanical parts of the car, such as tyres, gearbox, suspension, engine and so on.
Let me emphasise it this way - if I were developer of the GT series, I'd make this kind of priorities from the point I've left with GT4:
1. Online community build
2. More developed real-time race features (improved tyre wear and fuel-management)
3. Improved in-game data management (records, time-trials, post-race data management and so on)
4. Mechanical-parts damage
5. Improved immersion-features (day/night changes, weather effects)
6. Improved car maintanance features (from oil change, over chasis reciclying to overall maintenance features as introduced from the first game to GT4)
7. Improved car customisation features (various abilites to change visual parts of the car, paint shop and so on)
8. Improved PhotoMode and introduction of ReplayMode or similar (replay editing feature)
9. Vastly improved B-Spec mode with ability to race B-Spec drivers online against other B-Spec drivers (Race Manager feature)
10. Visual damage on cars
11. Working reverse lights (this was a joke
)But than, I's just my thoughts.
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Ok, but then I don't really get your other post. I was answering to you regarding physical damage caused by a crash , and you reply with mechanical damage, which is not a bad point on itself, but not what we were talking about
Regarding your point on hardware limitations and resource limitations. Obviously true, but the fact that is would be an huge task (which I realise) doesn't mean it's not desirable. Of course I see the problems of adding damage from a time/resources perspective, imagine for example the first turn at Eiger, are you supposed to jump downhill taking some spectators with you or are you supposed to total your car against an invisible wall. Option 1 requieres too much work and redesign of the circuit maybe, Option 2 is just ugly. But like I said, the fact I realise this, doesn't mean no damage is better than damage.
- 7,830
- U S A
- Tetsumura
- Nigel Fox
I'm with dzidza on this one. I don't think having visual OR mechanical damage alone will make anyone happy. If a Forza level of damage wouldn't suit Kazunori, I think I'd rather wait for a patch, personally, but we all might be surprised in a few weeks. Kaz and the lads have certainly been working feverishly on something for GT5, to neglect Prologue for so long, and with the PS3, they have a wealth of processors to devote to a number of tasks.
And just to remind the non-damage folk in here, there hasn't been a racing game with damage in recent memory which didn't allow you to turn damage completely off. But really, everyone needs to race with damage implemented when they get good with any racer, at least to some degree. It really does give you an extra incentive to race cleanly and keep your chariot in as good a shape as possible. When I was younger and raced in Sega Rally, I had trouble getting used to hairpin turns and just rammed the wall to brake, and too many youngsters do the same thing with the corkscrew in Laguna. In London on Prologue, I'm sure there are some who just pinball their way around turns and corners because that's easier than learning how to take them properly. Damage would help teach you the error of your ways.
- 627
- Lomma
- GTP_M00ndancer
I agree here as well. As an avid simracer and endurance freak I do want damage. But I don't demand that the visual damage is as good as the mechanical one. I'm fine with whole panels braking off and not splinter into a million pieces. The visual style from GRID and NFS is good enough. I'm not one of the top drivers by any means but a "Real Driving Simulator" should have damage as any other feature that real racing have. I do fear the damage when I race around alone on the Nords in rFactor or GTR-Evo. It's really scary to drive fast going into the corkscrew at Laguna Seca. I do hope that GT5 will instill the same fear in me. One of the most thrilling thing in endurance racing is the race against the clock when you get puncture or some damage and have to get to pits to fix it. If your car gets totalled then that's the end of the race. If unfair, make a protest. (This also means that private rooms get implemented as well as the option to shut it off.)
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- 103
- FatLeadFoot
- 652
- Not on this planet!
- SouthendRage
- I'd rather burn the $$.
Nice thread Fyshokid 👍
Long time no post... Well, here I go!
I'm not too worried about damage myself, it's not somthing i'd spend much time with, i'd rather Polyphony spend time making more cars/tracks and other features such as Livery editors....
Sure, it would add some needed consequence to the gameplay, but concequences are only for those who have goals.... I'd hate to see people, with no intent for victory playing the game just for ridiculous crashes,then subsequently going online for some more
Polyphony can do as much as possible to stop them, but in a game with damage, surely this kind of thing is bound to happen.
Besides, i'd hate to see people spamming youtube with videos named 'Totally insane 5 flips ferrari enzo crash' Now I don't think a manufacturer as prestigous and proud as Ferrari to like this kind of thing...
Damage would be a licensing nightmare for Polyphony, I would not be suprised at all if they leave it out. This would anger alot of people however... Microsoft managed it with Forza.
Although the damage was unrealistic and well, it was rubbish.
Polyphony are on a bit of a tightrope here.... The other games have all sold well and gotten rave reviews without damage. But Kaz said they were going to implement damage into GT5, i'm not sure how much of a promise he made but people will keep and eye on that....
They will get alot of extra sales if they put in damage, as to mainstream gamers this would be a great thing, it would also prove what the PS3's CPU is truely capable of... But damage as realistic as Polyphony would want to be surely would not be possible. A 16 car pile up, with highly realistic physics, would be quite a feat. It would have to be far from the damage in that render, it took 10 seconds per frame!
It would probably have to be like GRID's damage physics, but hopefully with more fidelity and realism, with different effects for different materials.
For example, a carbon fibre race shell would crack and splinter like wood, breaking into many small fragments, and a car with and aluminium shell would bend much more, with little fracturing.
I hope they put in as many 'promised' features as possible, but if they put in damage, it had better have a point.
Mechanical damage is extremely important, it effects what actually happens to the car in a crash, a car that got air for example, would break it's suspension, which would likely have to stop. Of course, aerodynamics can relate to cosmetic damage, as a car with a bent bumper, or a missing wing would surely lose handling quality and top speed...
They could at least change the 'Bumper car' physics, so at least the collisions are more 'real' take for example Ferrari Challenge, they isn't any proper damage in that, but when a car hits a wall, it will 'dig in' and spin, instead of bouncing off with no speed lost.
I'm sure Polyphony will do as much as they can, but they will always do what they think is best for the game.
Long time no post... Well, here I go!
I'm not too worried about damage myself, it's not somthing i'd spend much time with, i'd rather Polyphony spend time making more cars/tracks and other features such as Livery editors....
Sure, it would add some needed consequence to the gameplay, but concequences are only for those who have goals.... I'd hate to see people, with no intent for victory playing the game just for ridiculous crashes,then subsequently going online for some more
Polyphony can do as much as possible to stop them, but in a game with damage, surely this kind of thing is bound to happen.
Besides, i'd hate to see people spamming youtube with videos named 'Totally insane 5 flips ferrari enzo crash' Now I don't think a manufacturer as prestigous and proud as Ferrari to like this kind of thing...
Damage would be a licensing nightmare for Polyphony, I would not be suprised at all if they leave it out. This would anger alot of people however... Microsoft managed it with Forza.
Although the damage was unrealistic and well, it was rubbish.
Polyphony are on a bit of a tightrope here.... The other games have all sold well and gotten rave reviews without damage. But Kaz said they were going to implement damage into GT5, i'm not sure how much of a promise he made but people will keep and eye on that....
They will get alot of extra sales if they put in damage, as to mainstream gamers this would be a great thing, it would also prove what the PS3's CPU is truely capable of... But damage as realistic as Polyphony would want to be surely would not be possible. A 16 car pile up, with highly realistic physics, would be quite a feat. It would have to be far from the damage in that render, it took 10 seconds per frame!
It would probably have to be like GRID's damage physics, but hopefully with more fidelity and realism, with different effects for different materials.
For example, a carbon fibre race shell would crack and splinter like wood, breaking into many small fragments, and a car with and aluminium shell would bend much more, with little fracturing.
I hope they put in as many 'promised' features as possible, but if they put in damage, it had better have a point.
Mechanical damage is extremely important, it effects what actually happens to the car in a crash, a car that got air for example, would break it's suspension, which would likely have to stop. Of course, aerodynamics can relate to cosmetic damage, as a car with a bent bumper, or a missing wing would surely lose handling quality and top speed...
They could at least change the 'Bumper car' physics, so at least the collisions are more 'real' take for example Ferrari Challenge, they isn't any proper damage in that, but when a car hits a wall, it will 'dig in' and spin, instead of bouncing off with no speed lost.
I'm sure Polyphony will do as much as they can, but they will always do what they think is best for the game.
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