- 447
- United Kingdom
Is this my fault? Looking for opinions
- Thread starter wtrain77
- 117 comments
- 5,134 views
- 2,321
- Wales
- TSR_GTWelsh
That's what you're supposed to do if you want any chance of making the corner with any kind of corner speed.
- 1
- Dundalk
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- 2,346
- UK
- TPC_Watto
Nobody brakes on the straight until the braking zone for the corner, when the 4C brakes. I can't see anyone braking and dodging on the straight.
I'm still not sure what you are talking about.
- 447
- United Kingdom
Yes but He did forces his ideal apex where another car resides in instead of compensate.
- 2,346
- UK
- TPC_Watto
Thanks for the screenshot that shows......nobody braking. The below is the 4C braking between the II and the I boards (it's clearest looking at the middle brake light 'strip').
I'm sorry but I really don't understand the point you're trying to make.
- 1,983
- Ludwigsburg
- RocketJoe1-61
The incident is a bit of shared fault to me, I'd mainly blame the Renault driver though.
Everything's been ok until the turn in, don't let anyone tell you you did anything wrong down the straight, you played that perfectly.
Unfortunately you turned in a bit too early or too much, be it for cautiousness or misjudgment. That led you onto grass and I assume you just couldn't hold the car and hit him - which makes this discussion even more controversial.
Of course, the Renault shouldn't have been there at all - and if you could have stayed on track on a perfect inside line, it would have become all clear the Renault just turned in on you without leaving enough space.
Btw never thought a car can shoot off track like this from such a slight hit.
- 2,321
- Wales
- TSR_GTWelsh
(SEE UPDATE AT END OF POST)
Not sure you've understood me. The Alfa was pushing the Megane to the left (you're supposed to squeeze your opponent like that if you want to have any real chance of making the corner) and had loads of room on the right, as the guy I quoted said.
The Megane then lost all composure and took the normal racing line. He (or she) appears to just not be very experienced with wheel to wheel racing, which is fair enough if it's not high DR racing, but needs to be worked on!
Alfa did nothing wrong, at all. In the past with the TSR lads we've been banging doors on the way into a corner, but we all make it through without that kind of thing happening.
You could argue the alfa could have avoided the crash, but given the situation forced onto the guy I can't really blame him. Only solution was to back out, and then the Megane thinks he's just pulled off a great pass when it was just dirty racing.
Here is me and maarten, door to door, standard stuff. No one forcing anyone onto the grass. The moves shown here are like what the Alfa driver was going for, but the Megane driver wasn't up to it.
UPDATE: I've watched it a few more times and discussed it with @D-Max and I think the Alfa appeared to choose the line over the grass, THEN the megane came in. So maybe in that case it's the Alfa at fault. Or racing incident
(made my whole post pointless!)
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- 104
- West Yorkshire
from cockpit view knowing gran turismo he probably lost your sight or you may have been in his dead angle and if he saw you two could squeeze at the begining maybe he continued pushing forward thinking its gonna be that way and suddenly felt he was punted of. if he was in cockpit view I could see why he blamed you.
to prevent this incident you could have lifted off but lost a position. But he could have gone wider or since it looked like he had speed on you why didn't he go for cutback? let you go in and then get you at next turn.
Is it possible for you to go back to that replay and supply us with his point of view as well?
otherwise it is just this
to prevent this incident you could have lifted off but lost a position. But he could have gone wider or since it looked like he had speed on you why didn't he go for cutback? let you go in and then get you at next turn.
Is it possible for you to go back to that replay and supply us with his point of view as well?
otherwise it is just this
)- 447
- United Kingdom
He should of backed off and given him the position, he went in too fast after trying to out brake him into the corner and running onto the grass to try and make the corner which resulted in him punting off the over car, you might as well of done a handbrake drift and sent him flying.
You’re both at fault. You dropped 2 tyres off the track while you had half a cars width space on your left. The megane misread the situation and moved over. As he does, you try and get out of the dirt and bounce him off. 50/50 in my eyes, it’s a racing accident.
- 882
- Spain
I'd say mostly a racing incident and you aren't at fault. Why? Even though you understeered into him, he didnt give you a full car width of space
- 415
- North Bohemia
- 4,962
- Nelson, England
- GTP_ASH32
I don't see how this thread is still going really, there is a lot of pointless arguing over something very minor and common. It's a racing incident that was avoidable by both drivers, however as soon as the car on the outside decided to fight through that corner they were always in most trouble and likely to end up worse off, so really they should have backed out but sometimes in battle you don't do the most sensible thing. 
Easy way to avoid this in future though, brake later, you can brake at the last marker board here without any problem and you'd likely take the place then as long as you don't run too wide on the exit. Also you could just drive the Trophy too, same speed as the 4C but easier to drive and less likely to be pushed about.
Easy way to avoid this in future though, brake later, you can brake at the last marker board here without any problem and you'd likely take the place then as long as you don't run too wide on the exit. Also you could just drive the Trophy too, same speed as the 4C but easier to drive and less likely to be pushed about.
- 1,658
- Bristol
- MrCrynox
- Mr Crynox
I think the problem is you went onto the grass, from this point on the game had laid the blame at your feet. Had you not gone into the grass and held your line/position he would have turned in on you and it would have probably be deemed as his fault. His fault anyway imo.
- 6,764
- Ontario
- SvennoJ
- SvenZ
There likely was lag involved, hence the other car shooting off and other driver mouthing off at the end. The slight wobble @wtrain77 did when getting two wheels on the grass was likely amplified on the other driver's screen. To him it must have felt like a vindictive punch for following too close. Lag can be funny, but often makes close proximity racing a real gamble.
Unfortunately the replay doesn't show lag info, not that it's always correct. Here we both had 4 green bars and look at the nonsense that happens
It's like I have a giant spring mechanism on my front bumper
Anyway in that corner I would have yield if slightly behind like here. You have significant overlap at all times to have a right to the corner, but you will both lose time even if taken without incident, very easy to draft back up to try pass again later and the risks are simply not worth it there. If I'm slightly ahead I won't concede there and that has still gotten me penalties or getting run off in the past. Side by side does work there, lag permitting, both drivers not touching grass and keeping a foot between cars. That's a lot of ifs in random lobbies.
- 447
- United Kingdom
What you on about then?
My SR is S.
98 top 5 finishes out of 471 and the majority of those i’ve still been within the top 10.
My DR should probably be at B,
but idiot’s still feel the need to make contact reducing my DR.
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- 3,052
- England
- kilesa4568
Watching the video in slowmo, the 4C seems a little eager to put two wheels on the grass to contest the corner and the Megane turns in on them as the 4C is trying to come off the grass again.
Both at fault for a racing incident but I'd say 60-40 for the 4C. I think the incident could have been avoided if they hadn't used the grass as part of the track.
Both at fault for a racing incident but I'd say 60-40 for the 4C. I think the incident could have been avoided if they hadn't used the grass as part of the track.
- 65
- Paris
- Super-FTS
In my opinion, you are not at fault. Fast corners like that are always tricky to go side by side in (many corners at the Nordschleife are also the case). You put two wheels on the grass and lost traction which is just an easily avoidable racing incident.
If it were me, I would react like this:
Honestly, keep racing like that. You didn't do anything wrong, but it could've been avoided if the Megane hadn't pushed on with his attack.
If it were me, I would react like this:
- If I were on the inside like you were, I would just continue on. The inside car is not at fault in an incident like that.
- If I were on the outside, I'd just play it safe. Back off if I see I can't make the overtake on the straight because being on the outside is going to guarantee a time loss and might cause an incident like this. Some people just aren't patient enough.
Honestly, keep racing like that. You didn't do anything wrong, but it could've been avoided if the Megane hadn't pushed on with his attack.
- 6,293
- Canada
Racing incident.
The 4C made a mistake by putting two wheels on the grass, the Megane made a mistake by not leaving more room on the inside. Both drivers had the right to go side by side through the corner, no one was far enough ahead to claim the corner as their own, but both drivers being human and non-pro, small mistakes were made. It happens.
Any other talk about crowding or shoving on the straight leading to the corner is complete nonsense.
People need to do a better job of educating themselves about the different levels of racing that exist, and how overtaking is handled in those different levels.
During track days for amateurs, overtaking is only allowed on the straights under power, there is no overtaking under braking allowed.
In most vintage racing categories for amateur drivers, the overtaking driver must have full overlap (front bumper beside front bumper) BEFORE the braking zone. If this occurs, the driver on the outside must yield the position. If the drivers are of professional caliber, 2-wide through the corners may be allowed....but remember, priority #1 here is bringing the car home in one piece.
In most club and amateur racing, the overtaking driver needs roughly 50% overlap by the TURN IN POINT, not the start of the braking zone. If the attacking driver can achieve 50% overlap by the turn in point, and can maintain that 50% overlap through the corner, the other driver must leave them space. This applies to attacking on both the inside, and the outside.
If a driver on the outside of a 2-wide scenario, either the attacker or defender, loses that 50% overlap, they have lost the corner and should not expect to be left space on corner exit (not saying that happened in the specific case being discussed here, just in general). If a driver on the inside of a 2-wide scenario, again either attacker or defender, fails to maintain that 50% overlap, they should expect to be turned in on by the outside driver. That said, it is the responsibility of the driver on the outside to know that even if they have a right to turn in to the apex, the car on the inside cannot simply disappear. Many times, even if you have the right to turn in on someone, in the name of self preservation, it’s wise to not turn in on someone (especially if they are on their braking limit....they may not have achieved enough overlap to command the space be left, but being on the braking limit means they can’t slow down anymore, and won’t be able to “pull out” of the attempted move).
The “50% overlap” rule is not hard and fast though, it changes from series to series. In Aussie Supercars, due to the handling nature of the cars and the sanctioning bodies desire to put on a good show, the attacking driver getting their front bumper to the defending driver’s C-pillar is considered enough overlap to demand space be left. If F1, it’s the opposite, 50% overlap is not enough. Here, the attacking driver needs basically their front wheels to be alongside the front wheels of the defending driver in order to command the space (this mostly applies to medium and high speed corners, slow corners have some exceptions). F1 is a terrible example to look at though, as they are beyond pathetic at being consistent in terms of when space needs to be left, how much space needs to be left - and let’s face it, who the specific drivers involved are and what colour their cars are.
The 4C made a mistake by putting two wheels on the grass, the Megane made a mistake by not leaving more room on the inside. Both drivers had the right to go side by side through the corner, no one was far enough ahead to claim the corner as their own, but both drivers being human and non-pro, small mistakes were made. It happens.
Any other talk about crowding or shoving on the straight leading to the corner is complete nonsense.
People need to do a better job of educating themselves about the different levels of racing that exist, and how overtaking is handled in those different levels.
During track days for amateurs, overtaking is only allowed on the straights under power, there is no overtaking under braking allowed.
In most vintage racing categories for amateur drivers, the overtaking driver must have full overlap (front bumper beside front bumper) BEFORE the braking zone. If this occurs, the driver on the outside must yield the position. If the drivers are of professional caliber, 2-wide through the corners may be allowed....but remember, priority #1 here is bringing the car home in one piece.
In most club and amateur racing, the overtaking driver needs roughly 50% overlap by the TURN IN POINT, not the start of the braking zone. If the attacking driver can achieve 50% overlap by the turn in point, and can maintain that 50% overlap through the corner, the other driver must leave them space. This applies to attacking on both the inside, and the outside.
If a driver on the outside of a 2-wide scenario, either the attacker or defender, loses that 50% overlap, they have lost the corner and should not expect to be left space on corner exit (not saying that happened in the specific case being discussed here, just in general). If a driver on the inside of a 2-wide scenario, again either attacker or defender, fails to maintain that 50% overlap, they should expect to be turned in on by the outside driver. That said, it is the responsibility of the driver on the outside to know that even if they have a right to turn in to the apex, the car on the inside cannot simply disappear. Many times, even if you have the right to turn in on someone, in the name of self preservation, it’s wise to not turn in on someone (especially if they are on their braking limit....they may not have achieved enough overlap to command the space be left, but being on the braking limit means they can’t slow down anymore, and won’t be able to “pull out” of the attempted move).
The “50% overlap” rule is not hard and fast though, it changes from series to series. In Aussie Supercars, due to the handling nature of the cars and the sanctioning bodies desire to put on a good show, the attacking driver getting their front bumper to the defending driver’s C-pillar is considered enough overlap to demand space be left. If F1, it’s the opposite, 50% overlap is not enough. Here, the attacking driver needs basically their front wheels to be alongside the front wheels of the defending driver in order to command the space (this mostly applies to medium and high speed corners, slow corners have some exceptions). F1 is a terrible example to look at though, as they are beyond pathetic at being consistent in terms of when space needs to be left, how much space needs to be left - and let’s face it, who the specific drivers involved are and what colour their cars are.
Whether you felt the Megane or the Alfa was at fault, or simply chalked it up as a racing incident, I thank everyone for their replies and opinions.
I would have been content at chalking this up as a racing incident and moving forward. In the spirit of fair and competitive racing, incidents like this can and will continue to happen. I just found the insulting comment directed at me post-race off-putting, and in a minor way, ruins the enjoyment of Sport Mode racing for me. Hopefully, we can move forward as a community and have healthier conversations when a party feels aggrieved rather than hurl insults.
I would have been content at chalking this up as a racing incident and moving forward. In the spirit of fair and competitive racing, incidents like this can and will continue to happen. I just found the insulting comment directed at me post-race off-putting, and in a minor way, ruins the enjoyment of Sport Mode racing for me. Hopefully, we can move forward as a community and have healthier conversations when a party feels aggrieved rather than hurl insults.
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- 447
- United Kingdom
- 659
- Canada
- xPat_McCrotchxx
Except*
How do you dive bomb somebody when you are door to door? Lol come on dude
Tbh id be pissed if i got hit off like that too but you can see from the replay that both cars made mistakes. My DR is C or B usually so if i was on the inside there i'd probably just brake early and fall in line unless i had been behind the car for a lap to see how they are driving. Just easier to avoid the contact situation than put your trust in some random driver to safely go two wide through a sketchy corner. Price you pay to battle wheel to wheel in sport mode.
- 447
- United Kingdom
- 659
- Canada
- xPat_McCrotchxx
Yeah that is nothing like what happened in OPs video and still isnt a divebomb. Alesi and Hakkinen both tried to brake super late and completely blew through the braking zone side by side. In my eyes divebombing is lunging to the inside under braking and blocking/stealing the line or apex from the car in front which didnt happen in either video.
- 3,052
- England
- kilesa4568
Until today, I thought every person who'd run a race or two would know something about race craft.
