Islam - What's your view on it?

[Scaff]

Huh, why the personal attack and assumption?

Its not a personal attack its a question.

Giving the example of one of the most notorious Christian militia is quaint, but doesn't really address the points in my post - espically considering the disparate nature of Islamic extremists.

Its not quaint and perfectly addresses the points in your post.

In fact it highlights the utter nonsense of you points, nor does the use of one example mean its the only one.

What is does do however is address (and quite firmly debunk) your:

"Let's ask a simple question to prove a point:

If all these people are "perverting a great religion", why is it only Islam that has this problem to such a degree."

That is unless you consider a decades long campaign that has resulted in 20,000 child abductions, 1.5 million people displaced and 100,000 dead to not be a problem?

 

[DLR_Mysterion]

It pretty squarely disproves your statement that Islamic terrorists have committed thousands more terrorist acts in the last 16 years than all other religions combined. The disparate nature of Islamic extremists has nothing to do with that, or you would have mentioned it.

But facts aren't important, right? It's the feelings that you have. The feelings that tell you that Islam is scary, that Islam is evil, that Muslims are violent thugs who repurposed your religion and rewrote it for their own ends. Pretty terrifying, right? These guys are out to take over the world, and don't care who they have to displace or kill to do so.

If facts aren't important and we're just discussing your feelings, I think we're done here. We can't and shouldn't convince you that you don't feel the way you do. You do. We can explain to you why feeling that way is unnecessary, why the information that you've been fed that scares you so much is incorrect, why actually most Muslims are kind, giving, hard working people just like most Christians and Jews and Hindus and Buddhists and humans.

But unless you're ready to be a true Christian and open your heart to your neighbour, put aside your doubts and see the true love in their hearts, you'll continue to be scared and hateful in a world that seems like it's out to get you.

Good luck.

Where does it disprove that? Scaff's statement was about the quasi religious movement known as the LRA committing these crimes from 1986-2004.

Boko Haram alone since 2009 has led to the displacement of more people. Just picking a random year on TROP website (2014) shows that at least 33463 people lost their lives in Islamic attacks, so I'm not quite sure how the point was "squarely disproved".

As for the Rushdie and Charbonnier sentences, I just have to say - huh? I'm not sure what your point was....

And the feelings guff you came out with, well, cool story bro. I especially liked the part about being a "true Christian" since by posting these things against Islam I'm obviously a terrible one with a hard heart. But deflections don't really work on me so if you want to carry on saying that I don't have facts on my side while another truck ploughs its way into pedestrians then....

Good luck.

 

[TenEightyOne]

quasi religious movement known as the LRA

Why "quasi"? They're religious (check), believe literally in their version of their faith (check), are murdering nutters (check). All christians are the same - it's obvious* - so why "quasi"?

* Other definitions of "obvious" may have been used to prepare this sentence

 

[DLR_Mysterion]

Why "quasi"? They're religious (check), believe literally in their version of their faith (check), are murdering nutters (check). All christians are the same - it's obvious* - so why "quasi"?

* Other definitions of "obvious" may have been used to prepare this sentence

I had to look them up:


Lord's Resistance Army - a quasi-religious rebel group in Uganda that terrorized and raped women and kidnapped children who were forced to serve in the army

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Lord's+Resistance+Army

It appears to largely function as a personality cult of its leader Joseph Kony,[10] a self-declared prophet whose leadership has earned him the nickname "Africa's David Koresh".

Then reading about this guy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Kony

----

As for Political correctness, have gays moved down the pecking order?

https://pjmedia.com/blog/the-new-pecking-order-muslims-over-gays/

Recently, during a course in “Middle Eastern Humanities” at Florida's Rollins College, a Muslim student stated a truth about Islam out loud: according to sharia, he explained, gays and adulterers should be punished by beheading, and as a good Muslim he apparently had no problem with that. After the class was over, another student in the class, a Christian named Marshall Polston, expressed his concerns to the course professor, Areej Zufair, about the Muslim student's statement. The result? Polston was summoned to the office of the dean of safety and informed that he'd been suspended. Perhaps because his case drew nationwide attention, his suspension was later revoked – but of course it should never have happened in the first place.

 

[Scaff]

I had to look them up:


Lord's Resistance Army - a quasi-religious rebel group in Uganda that terrorized and raped women and kidnapped children who were forced to serve in the army

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Lord's+Resistance+Army

It appears to largely function as a personality cult of its leader Joseph Kony,[10] a self-declared prophet whose leadership has earned him the nickname "Africa's David Koresh".

Then reading about this guy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Kony

Any reason why you missed out this quote from the Wiki info on Kony:

"Ideologically, the group is a syncretic mix of mysticism, Acholi nationalism, and Christian fundamentalism, and claims to be establishing a theocratic state based on the Ten Commandments and local Acholi tradition."

As I said he has taken Christianity and mixed it with local tradition to form his own version based around the 10 commandments.

Or this entire section from the same Wiki:

"Kony was thought among followers and detractors alike to have been possessed by spirits; he has been portrayed as an elusive leader. Kony believes in the literal protection provided by a cross symbol and tells his child soldiers a cross on their chest drawn in oil will protect them from bullets.[28] He also believes in polygamy. He is thought to have had many wives—some of whom were killed during the insurgency—and there are claims that he has 42 children.[5][6] Kony insists that he and the Lord's Resistance Army are fighting for the Ten Commandments. He defends his actions: "Is it bad? It is not against human rights. And that commandment was not given by Joseph. It was not given by LRA. No, those commandments were given by God."[40]

Ugandan political leader Betty Bigombe remembered that, the first time she met Kony, his followers used oil to ward off bullets and evil spirits.[41] In a letter regarding future talks, Kony stated that he must consult his self-styled holy spirit. When the talks did occur, Kony and his followers insisted on the participation of religious leaders and opened the proceedings with prayers, led by LRA's Director of Religious Affairs Jenaro Bongomi. During the 1994 peace talks, Kony was preceded by men in robes sprinkling holy water.[25] According to Francis Ongom, a former LRA officer who defected, Kony "has found Bible justifications for killing witches, for killing [those who farm or eat] pigs because of the story of the Gadarene swine, and for killing [other] people because God did the same with Noah's flood and Sodom and Gomorrah."[42]"

Honestly how many Christian references, symobols, quotes and references to the same God you follow do you need?

Where does it disprove that? Scaff's statement was about the quasi religious movement known as the LRA committing these crimes from 1986-2004.

That disingenuous at the least, what I said was.....

"By 2004 the LRA had abducted 20,000 children, displaced 1.5 million people and killed an estimated 100,000 people.

And that was 13 years ago, and they are still active, and only a single non-Islamic terror group."

....by omitting the second sentence you give the impression that they were active until 2004, yet I clearly stated that was not the case.

However just to ensure you are clear on it here are just some of the activities they have carried out since 2004:

"In 2006, UNICEF estimated that the LRA had abducted at least 25,000 children since the conflict began.[32] In January 2006, eight Guatemalan Kaibiles commandos and at least 15 rebels were killed in a botched UN special forces raid targeting the LRA deputy leader Vincent Otti in the Democratic Republic of the Congo.[33]

The conflict forced many civilians to live in internally displaced person (IDP) camps, such as this Labuje IDP camp near Kitgum, Uganda in 2005
According to the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA), the LRA attacks and the government's counter-insurgency measures have resulted in the displacement of nearly 95 percent of the Acholi population in three districts of northern Uganda. By 2006, 1.7 million people lived in more than 200 internally displaced person (IDP) camps in northern Uganda.[32] These camps had some of the highest mortality rates in the world. The Ugandan Ministry of Health and partners estimated that through the first seven months of 2005, about 1,000 people were dying weekly, chiefly from malaria and AIDS. During the same time period of January–July 2005, the LRA abducted 1,286 Ugandans (46.4 percent of whom were children under the age of 15 years), and violence accounted for 9.4 percent of the 28,283 deaths, occurring mostly outside camps.[34]

In 2006–2008, a series of meetings were held in Juba, Sudan, between the government of Uganda and the LRA, mediated by the south Sudanese separatist leader Riek Machar. The Ugandan government and the LRA signed a truce on 26 August 2006. Under the terms of the agreement, LRA forces would leave Uganda and gather in two assembly areas in the remote Garamba National Park area of northern Democratic Republic of Congo that the Ugandan government agreed not to attack. In December 2008–March 2009, however, the armed forces of Uganda, the DR Congo and South Sudan launched aerial attacks and raids on the LRA camps in Garamba, destroying them, but the efforts to inflict a final military defeat on the LRA were not fully successful. Rather, the U.S.-supported Operation Lightning Thunder resulted in brutal revenge attacks by scattered LRA remnants, with over 1,000 people killed and hundreds abducted in Congo and South Sudan, and hundreds of thousands were displaced while fleeing the massacres. The military action in the DRC did not result in the capture or killing of Kony, who remained elusive.[35]

During the Christmas of 2008, the LRA massacred at least 143 people and abducted 180 at a concert celebration sponsored by the Catholic Church in Faradje in the Democratic Republic of Congo,[36] and struck several other communities in the near-simultaneous attacks: 75 people were murdered in a church near Dungu, at least 80 were killed in Batande, 48 in Bangadi, and 213 in Gurba.[37][38][39] By August 2009, the LRA terror in this country resulted in displacing as many as 320,000 Congolese, exposing them to a threat of famine, according to UNICEF director Ann Veneman.[40] That same month, the LRA attacked a Catholic church in Ezo, South Sudan, on the Feast of the Assumption, with reports of victims being crucified, causing Ugandan Archbishop John Baptist Odama to call on the international community for help in finding a peaceful solution to the crisis.[41][42][43] In December 2009, the LRA forces under Dominic Ongwen killed at least 321 civilians and abducted 250 others during a four-day rampage in the village and region of Makombo in the DR Congo.[22][44] In February 2010, about 100 people were massacred by the LRA in Kpanga, near DR Congo's border with the Central African Republic and Sudan.[45] Small-scale attacks continued daily, displacing large numbers of people and worsening an ongoing humanitarian crisis which the UN described as one of the worst in the world.[46] By May 2010, the LRA killed over 1,600 Congolese civilians and abducted more than 2,500.[47] Between September 2008 and July 2011, the group, despite being down to only a few hundred fighters, has killed more than 2,300 people, abducted more than 3,000, and displaced over 400,000 across the DR Congo, South Sudan and the Central African Republic.[48]

In March 2012, Uganda announced it would head a new four-nation African Union military force (a brigade of 5,000, including contingents from the DR Congo, Central African Republic and South Sudan) to hunt down Kony and the remnants of the LRA, but asked for more international assistance for the task force.[49][50] In 2012 the LRA was reported to be in Djema, Central African Republic[51] but forces pursuing the LRA withdrew in April 2013[52] after the government of the Central African Republic was overthrown by the Séléka Coalition rebels.[53]"

More here if you are still in a state of utter denial:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord'...y#Renewed_fighting_.282008.E2.80.93present.29


You are moving goalposts, ignoring information in sources you are citing and now seem to be misrepresenting other members own words. All because you seem to not be able to face that extremists exist in other faiths.

 

[Imari]

Where does it disprove that? Scaff's statement was about the quasi religious movement known as the LRA committing these crimes from 1986-2004.

Indeed, which includes a part of the last 16 years, and since they still exist and haven't turned into a bingo group it seems like a safe assumption that they've carried on.

As for the Rushdie and Charbonnier sentences, I just have to say - huh? I'm not sure what your point was....

You hold these people up and examples of well known people who are anti-Islam. They are not. They are anti-fundamentalist Islam.

There is a difference.

And the feelings guff you came out with, well, cool story bro. I especially liked the part about being a "true Christian" since by posting these things against Islam I'm obviously a terrible one with a hard heart.

Meh, I thought it might be interesting to get you to think about how much of what you're saying is motivated primarily by how you feel about these things than objective facts. You get pretty wound up about Islam in other threads.

As far as the good Christian thing, you also seem to take your Christianity fairly seriously. I thought maybe that pointing out that you were pretty solidly violating some fundamental Christian principles you might take a breath and try viewing Islam as a Christian might, with tolerance and sympathy for those innocent people who just want to follow their religion peacefully but are trapped in there with a bunch of fundamentalists.

Christianity has good techniques for making sure that it's not condemning innocent people, that's what the whole turn the other cheek thing is about. But you seem more interested in painting 1.6 billion people as guilty instead of directing your anger specifically at the people who deserve it. I thought maybe your Christianity could help you see that. Perhaps not, not everyone belongs to a version of Christianity that believes in that sort of thing and even then you may simply not be a very good Christian.

Unlike Islam, Christianity doesn't require that it's follower attempt to do their best to follow the rules, it only requires that one accepts Christ as their saviour.

But deflections don't really work on me so if you want to carry on saying that I don't have facts on my side while another truck ploughs its way into pedestrians then....

Good luck.

Thanks. One truck ploughing into pedestrians is kind of making my point for me. It's very flashy and terrifying, but the actual damage done is minimal compared to where there are civil wars and the like destroying thousands of lives. It's a tragedy that people are dying for no good reason, whether it's a truck accident or a civil war, but one has to have a little perspective.

We accept a frankly extraordinary amount of risk in our daily lives simply due to cars and transport, electrics, gas, lethal weapons, heavy machinery and so on. Terrorists seem scary, but they are actually highly unlikely to be the cause of injury or death. You're much more likely to be injured or killed by something that sounds like it should be a joke, like falling off a chair.

As for Political correctness, have gays moved down the pecking order?

https://pjmedia.com/blog/the-new-pecking-order-muslims-over-gays/

Maybe. There's always going to be a top item for political correctness, and it doesn't surprise me that Islam is now it. It's still political correctness, and it's still bollocks.

For example, the story leads with the bit about Le Pen and the head scarf as a vehicle to use for an anecdote about how ostensibly liberal people would throw away gay rights in defense of Islam. I'm sure it's true, there's a lot of SJW types out there that will argue till they're blue in the face about rubbish but can't tell their anus from their elbow.

Personally, I think the Le Pen thing was fine. It can be polite to adopt foreign customs, but it's not required, especially if you find them objectionable. She's not a Muslim, if she doesn't want to wear one then that's her right. If the Grand Mufti doesn't want to meet a woman who isn't wearing a tea towel on her head, that's his right. I don't see the problem.

As far as people being kicked out of university for expressing their discomfort that someone else is calling for death and murder, that should never happen and is complete BS regardless of who or what was on the other end. Universities have a pretty long history of going overboard with stuff like that, and it absolutely needs to be made public and they should be pressured to change their stance (as indeed they were). But at the same time, anecdote is not the singular of data, and it shouldn't be used as such.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Why "quasi"?

They're Christians so they get the benefit of the doubt. When it's demonstrated that the LRA are capable of atrocities, they get the "quasi" prefix to protect other Christians from being tarred by the same brush.

 

[Imari]

They're Christians so they get the benefit of the doubt. When it's demonstrated that the LRA are capable of atrocities, they get the "quasi" prefix to protect other Christians from being tarred by the same brush.

Problem solved. ISIS are quasi-Muslims.

 

[mustafur]

Delete

 

[FoRiZon]

Problem solved. ISIS are quasi-Muslims.

A Wahabism, specifically. I say blame them for starting this terrorist BS. Its formed literally 750+ years after Muhammad dies.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabi

 

[DLR_Mysterion]

As I suggested recently, the perversion thing should really be reversed. Peaceful Muslims are an abstract representation of the religion, and those Muslims should seek to memorialise what they believe, to avoid the current Christian situation where the abstracted followers are well behaved. but leave the fundamentals of the religion unchanged for potential later abuse. Other religions should strike while the iron's cold, and rid themselves of the latent menace.

"Only Islam"? I'd say mainly Islam, and simply because it's their time right now. There are many other candidates for the future. Are you asking that your religion tie up the loose ends in the mean time?

Which loose ends

Any reason why you missed out this quote from the Wiki info on Kony:

"Ideologically, the group is a syncretic mix of mysticism, Acholi nationalism, and Christian fundamentalism, and claims to be establishing a theocratic state based on the Ten Commandments and local Acholi tradition."

As I said he has taken Christianity and mixed it with local tradition to form his own version based around the 10 commandments.

Or this entire section from the same Wiki:

"Kony was thought among followers and detractors alike to have been possessed by spirits; he has been portrayed as an elusive leader. Kony believes in the literal protection provided by a cross symbol and tells his child soldiers a cross on their chest drawn in oil will protect them from bullets.[28] He also believes in polygamy. He is thought to have had many wives—some of whom were killed during the insurgency—and there are claims that he has 42 children.[5][6] Kony insists that he and the Lord's Resistance Army are fighting for the Ten Commandments. He defends his actions: "Is it bad? It is not against human rights. And that commandment was not given by Joseph. It was not given by LRA. No, those commandments were given by God."[40]

Ugandan political leader Betty Bigombe remembered that, the first time she met Kony, his followers used oil to ward off bullets and evil spirits.[41] In a letter regarding future talks, Kony stated that he must consult his self-styled holy spirit. When the talks did occur, Kony and his followers insisted on the participation of religious leaders and opened the proceedings with prayers, led by LRA's Director of Religious Affairs Jenaro Bongomi. During the 1994 peace talks, Kony was preceded by men in robes sprinkling holy water.[25] According to Francis Ongom, a former LRA officer who defected, Kony "has found Bible justifications for killing witches, for killing [those who farm or eat] pigs because of the story of the Gadarene swine, and for killing [other] people because God did the same with Noah's flood and Sodom and Gomorrah."[42]"

Honestly how many Christian references, symobols, quotes and references to the same God you follow do you need?


That disingenuous at the least, what I said was.....

"By 2004 the LRA had abducted 20,000 children, displaced 1.5 million people and killed an estimated 100,000 people.

And that was 13 years ago, and they are still active, and only a single non-Islamic terror group."

....by omitting the second sentence you give the impression that they were active until 2004, yet I clearly stated that was not the case.

However just to ensure you are clear on it here are just some of the activities they have carried out since 2004:

"In 2006, UNICEF estimated that the LRA had abducted at least 25,000 children since the conflict began.[32] In January 2006, eight Guatemalan Kaibiles commandos and at least 15 rebels were killed in a botched UN special forces raid targeting the LRA deputy leader Vincent Otti in the Democratic Republic of the Congo.[33]

The conflict forced many civilians to live in internally displaced person (IDP) camps, such as this Labuje IDP camp near Kitgum, Uganda in 2005
According to the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA), the LRA attacks and the government's counter-insurgency measures have resulted in the displacement of nearly 95 percent of the Acholi population in three districts of northern Uganda. By 2006, 1.7 million people lived in more than 200 internally displaced person (IDP) camps in northern Uganda.[32] These camps had some of the highest mortality rates in the world. The Ugandan Ministry of Health and partners estimated that through the first seven months of 2005, about 1,000 people were dying weekly, chiefly from malaria and AIDS. During the same time period of January–July 2005, the LRA abducted 1,286 Ugandans (46.4 percent of whom were children under the age of 15 years), and violence accounted for 9.4 percent of the 28,283 deaths, occurring mostly outside camps.[34]

In 2006–2008, a series of meetings were held in Juba, Sudan, between the government of Uganda and the LRA, mediated by the south Sudanese separatist leader Riek Machar. The Ugandan government and the LRA signed a truce on 26 August 2006. Under the terms of the agreement, LRA forces would leave Uganda and gather in two assembly areas in the remote Garamba National Park area of northern Democratic Republic of Congo that the Ugandan government agreed not to attack. In December 2008–March 2009, however, the armed forces of Uganda, the DR Congo and South Sudan launched aerial attacks and raids on the LRA camps in Garamba, destroying them, but the efforts to inflict a final military defeat on the LRA were not fully successful. Rather, the U.S.-supported Operation Lightning Thunder resulted in brutal revenge attacks by scattered LRA remnants, with over 1,000 people killed and hundreds abducted in Congo and South Sudan, and hundreds of thousands were displaced while fleeing the massacres. The military action in the DRC did not result in the capture or killing of Kony, who remained elusive.[35]

During the Christmas of 2008, the LRA massacred at least 143 people and abducted 180 at a concert celebration sponsored by the Catholic Church in Faradje in the Democratic Republic of Congo,[36] and struck several other communities in the near-simultaneous attacks: 75 people were murdered in a church near Dungu, at least 80 were killed in Batande, 48 in Bangadi, and 213 in Gurba.[37][38][39] By August 2009, the LRA terror in this country resulted in displacing as many as 320,000 Congolese, exposing them to a threat of famine, according to UNICEF director Ann Veneman.[40] That same month, the LRA attacked a Catholic church in Ezo, South Sudan, on the Feast of the Assumption, with reports of victims being crucified, causing Ugandan Archbishop John Baptist Odama to call on the international community for help in finding a peaceful solution to the crisis.[41][42][43] In December 2009, the LRA forces under Dominic Ongwen killed at least 321 civilians and abducted 250 others during a four-day rampage in the village and region of Makombo in the DR Congo.[22][44] In February 2010, about 100 people were massacred by the LRA in Kpanga, near DR Congo's border with the Central African Republic and Sudan.[45] Small-scale attacks continued daily, displacing large numbers of people and worsening an ongoing humanitarian crisis which the UN described as one of the worst in the world.[46] By May 2010, the LRA killed over 1,600 Congolese civilians and abducted more than 2,500.[47] Between September 2008 and July 2011, the group, despite being down to only a few hundred fighters, has killed more than 2,300 people, abducted more than 3,000, and displaced over 400,000 across the DR Congo, South Sudan and the Central African Republic.[48]

In March 2012, Uganda announced it would head a new four-nation African Union military force (a brigade of 5,000, including contingents from the DR Congo, Central African Republic and South Sudan) to hunt down Kony and the remnants of the LRA, but asked for more international assistance for the task force.[49][50] In 2012 the LRA was reported to be in Djema, Central African Republic[51] but forces pursuing the LRA withdrew in April 2013[52] after the government of the Central African Republic was overthrown by the Séléka Coalition rebels.[53]"

More here if you are still in a state of utter denial:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord's_Resistance_Army_insurgency#Renewed_fighting_.282008.E2.80.93present.29


You are moving goalposts, ignoring information in sources you are citing and now seem to be misrepresenting other members own words. All because you seem to not be able to face that extremists exist in other faiths.

There's a problem with using outliers, and that's because when it comes to further scrutiny it tends to go wrong. As for the "quasi-religious", I'm pretty sure I said in my previous post they were a "notorious Christian militia"....

And moving goalposts? I was clear in what I said originally and haven't changed my stance since then.

Indeed, which includes a part of the last 16 years, and since they still exist and haven't turned into a bingo group it seems like a safe assumption that they've carried on.

Indeed they have:

More than 2,400 killed by the LRA in DR Congo, CAR, and South Sudan since 2008, as of December 2011

But again this isn't disproving my point?

You hold these people up and examples of well known people who are anti-Islam. They are not. They are anti-fundamentalist Islam.

There is a difference.

I hold them up as critiquing Islam, whether fundamentalist only or not. And tell me again how many Muslims sympathised with the Charlie Hebdo attackers (over a quarter of British Muslims)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31293196
And how many wanted Rushdie dead in the eighties (28% of British Muslims in Poll Want Rushdie Dead)
http://articles.latimes.com/1989-10-21/news/mn-364_1_british-muslims

Meh, I thought it might be interesting to get you to think about how much of what you're saying is motivated primarily by how you feel about these things than objective facts. You get pretty wound up about Islam in other threads.

Where am I showing an opinion based on feelings rather than facts. If anything it's the opposite!

As far as the good Christian thing, you also seem to take your Christianity fairly seriously. I thought maybe that pointing out that you were pretty solidly violating some fundamental Christian principles you might take a breath and try viewing Islam as a Christian might, with tolerance and sympathy for those innocent people who just want to follow their religion peacefully but are trapped in there with a bunch of fundamentalists.

Again I don't see how I'm doing anything wrong with highlighting the problems with Islam. Would you suppose that the Archbishop of Mosul isn't a Christian:

"Please, try to understand us," he said. "Your liberal and democratic principles are worth nothing here. You must consider again our reality in the Middle East, because you are welcoming in your countries an ever-growing number of Muslims.”

“You are also in danger,” he continued. “You must take strong and courageous decisions, even at the cost of contradicting your principles.

“You think all men are equal, but that is not true: Islam does not say that all men are equal,” said the archbishop. “Your values are not their values. If you do not understand this soon enough, you will become the victims of the enemy you have welcomed in your home."

http://www.cnsnews.com/blog/michael...my-diocese-islam-you-west-will-become-victims

Christianity has good techniques for making sure that it's not condemning innocent people, that's what the whole turn the other cheek thing is about. But you seem more interested in painting 1.6 billion people as guilty instead of directing your anger specifically at the people who deserve it. I thought maybe your Christianity could help you see that. Perhaps not, not everyone belongs to a version of Christianity that believes in that sort of thing and even then you may simply not be a very good Christian.

Where did I do that

Thanks. One truck ploughing into pedestrians is kind of making my point for me. It's very flashy and terrifying, but the actual damage done is minimal compared to where there are civil wars and the like destroying thousands of lives. It's a tragedy that people are dying for no good reason, whether it's a truck accident or a civil war, but one has to have a little perspective.

So let's talk perspective!

1. This is a list of designated terrorist groups: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_designated_terrorist_groups

Taking religions only, why is the 2nd largest religion in the world disproportionally represented and the number one factor by far (more than all other religious groups combined). Surely if there wasn't a problem with Islam, Christianity should take that spot and Hinduism should be slightly under Islam (according to number of adherents)

2. Here is the wiki page on Islamic terrorism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_terrorism

Why are 74% of all deaths from terrorism caused by just 4 groups. The thing they have in common? All Islamic

3. Is it possible for you to find how many terrorist attacks have occurred by religions other than Islam this year? Compare it to, oh lets say a month of Islamic terrorism. What do you think the figures will show? Why is this?

----

And after all is said and done, there comes two blasts in Egypt during Palm Sunday killing at least 36 people.

 

[Fat Tyre]

This video will create a dilemma for those who are anti feminism and looking for an excuse to bash Islam and Muslims as a whole. Side with a feminist to prove that Muslim societies treat women badly or go against her and sympathize with the conservative Muslims? Joking aside this is a great, interesting discussion about the value of women in the Muslim world, shows that there is pluralism and are undergoing reforms.

 

[Scaff]

There's a problem with using outliers...

Outlier in what regard

....and that's because when it comes to further scrutiny it tends to go wrong.

Except it doesn't. You made a claim that terrorism from all other religions combined can't come close to Islamist Terrorism, you are provided with an example from one Christian terrorist group alone that does. Now I know you like to pick specific time periods, but I'm not aware that terrorism started 16 years ago.

As for the "quasi-religious", I'm pretty sure I said in my previous post they were a "notorious Christian militia"....

Militia =/= Terrorist.

You seem very reluctant to use the term Christian and Terrorist together (well unless the words 'victim of' are added between them.

And moving goalposts? I was clear in what I said originally and haven't changed my stance since then.

You might want to not talk about outliers in that regard then, I don't recall you setting that as a condition of your original stance.

 

[LeMansAid]

Which loose ends

If you don't believe in the literal interpretation of The Bible, you've got a readily exploitable loose end. If you think that The Bible should be updated to properly reflect the views that you (and many other modern Christians hold), written to an acceptable standard of clarity, then you are endorsing having those loose ends tied up, and I have no qualms.

Problem solved. ISIS are quasi-Muslims.

Creative pronunciation also produces a nice fit, especially for those with a particular speech impediment.

Cwazy Muslims.

 

[Scaff]

Creative pronunciation also produces a nice fit, especially for those with a particular speech impediment.

Cwazy Muslims.

Or we could go with Muslim Militia and terrorism disappears overnight.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

The Minister for Islamophobia has called on people to boycott chocolate eggs with halal certification to "stop the Islamisation of Australia":

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2017-04-12/union-slams-hanson-call-for-easter-egg-boycott/8439504

This follows similar campaigns last year grom right-wing groups claiming that halal certification was being used to fund terrorism.

 

[Sanji Himura]

Marvel fired one of its artists today over his insertion of extremist imagery inside X-Men Gold #1 that was released this month. The artist, Ardian Syaf, inserted several references to Islam and the 212 movement in Indonesia inside the comic, which angered both fans and the Marvel bosses. Here are a few of them:

The signs tell the tale. The jewelry store was drawn in such a way that the first three letters of the sign highlight Kitty Pride's Jewish heritage as a insult. The 212 is an Islamist movement in Indonesia to protest the Christian governor of Jakarta, Ahok. One of the groups leading the charge of the 212 movement, the hardline Islamic Defenders Front, recently met with the artist, and was posted to facebook. Sadly, the post no longer exist, but evidence of the post's existence was preserved by redditor heilumlight:

Then there is the Qur'an verse that is on Colossus's shirt, preserved below:

There are many translations of the verse over the years, but this is the "do not make friends with Christians and Jews" verse.

O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as awliya (friends, protectors, helpers, etc.), they are but awliya to one another. And if any amongst you takes them as awliya, then surely he is one of them. Verily, Allah guides not those people who are the zalimoon (polytheists, wrongdoers, unjust).

Whatever your translation, that isn't very nice to Christians or Jews.

There was another bit with a bystander wearing a shirt that read "AL M", perhaps a reference to Al-Maidah 51, a controversial sura.

Whatever your view, this did not make anybody happy, including the writer of Ms. Marvel, who herself is a Muslim.

As for Syaf himself, he discussed his firing with an Indonesian newspaper and insulted the Jewish heritage of Stan Lee and Jack Kirby saying, quote, "But Marvel is owned by Disney. When Jews are offended, there is no mercy.”

http://www.vulture.com/2017/04/marvels-x-men-were-rocked-by-a-hidden-koranic-message.html

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/0...fended-no-mercy-ardian-syaf-dismissal-marvel/

 

[Scaff]

Marvel fired one of its artists today over his insertion of extremist imagery inside X-Men Gold #1 that was released this month. The artist, Ardian Syaf, inserted several references to Islam and the 212 movement in Indonesia inside the comic, which angered both fans and the Marvel bosses. Here are a few of them:

The signs tell the tale. The jewelry store was drawn in such a way that the first three letters of the sign highlight Kitty Pride's Jewish heritage as a insult. The 212 is an Islamist movement in Indonesia to protest the Christian governor of Jakarta, Ahok. One of the groups leading the charge of the 212 movement, the hardline Islamic Defenders Front, recently met with the artist, and was posted to facebook. Sadly, the post no longer exist, but evidence of the post's existence was preserved by redditor heilumlight:

Then there is the Qur'an verse that is on Colossus's shirt, preserved below:

There are many translations of the verse over the years, but this is the "do not make friends with Christians and Jews" verse.



Whatever your translation, that isn't very nice to Christians or Jews.

There was another bit with a bystander wearing a shirt that read "AL M", perhaps a reference to Al-Maidah 51, a controversial sura.

Whatever your view, this did not make anybody happy, including the writer of Ms. Marvel, who herself is a Muslim.

As for Syaf himself, he discussed his firing with an Indonesian newspaper and insulted the Jewish heritage of Stan Lee and Jack Kirby saying, quote, "But Marvel is owned by Disney. When Jews are offended, there is no mercy.”

http://www.vulture.com/2017/04/marvels-x-men-were-rocked-by-a-hidden-koranic-message.html

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/0...fended-no-mercy-ardian-syaf-dismissal-marvel/

I read about this idiot a few days ago, what astounds me is that someone who clearly is a self described Muslim (as i assume this person is) would get the translation and meaning of this wrong.

It's not 'friends' but rather a closer and more accurate translation would be sponsor or patron.

It doesn't says they can't be friends, rather that from a religious perspective Jew follow Jewish religious patrons, Christians follow Christian patrons and Muslims follow Muslim patrons.

You know a little like Christian verses do, i mean Matthew 10 is pretty much all about how everyone who isn't Christian will be out to get you, will try and kill you and shouldn't be trusted.

 

[Sanji Himura]

You know a little like Christian verses do, i mean Matthew 10 is pretty much all about how everyone who isn't Christian will be out to get you, will try and kill you and shouldn't be trusted.

How I word my response will largely depend on what translation. Care to answer that question first?

 

[Scaff]

How I word my response will largely depend on what translation. Care to answer that question first?

Verse 21 would be a good example given that different versions differ very little.

Now it of course doesn't mention specific faiths, which is understandable given that Islam doesn't yet exist and at this point Christianity didn't have a name.

Edited to add.

I nearly forgot about Corinthians.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2 Corinthians 6:14-16

True story, I once had a customer turn down free breakdown cover with a new car citing that one. The AA were not true believers, oddly it seems Renault must have been for her to buy the car.

 

[FoRiZon]

I should note that Marvel decides to fire the artist because he push his political views on the comic, regardless whatever its bad or good.

Entertainment such as comic should be free from "in your face" political issues unless said entertainment revolves around it in the first place. As for those guys who demonstrate as @Sanji Himura shows, screw them.

Not all moslem yes. But, eh, futures not looking bright.

 

[Sanji Himura]

@Scaff

You didn't answer my question. How I word my response will depend on what version (translation) of the bible you are referring too. Please cite the version that you wish for me to discuss first.

 

[Scaff]

@Scaff

You didn't answer my question. How I word my response will depend on what version (translation) of the bible you are referring too. Please cite the version that you wish for me to discuss first.

Take your pick. My link contained pretty much all the common ones.

Oops my bad, thought i put the link in.

http://biblehub.com/matthew/10-21.htm

http://biblehub.com/2_corinthians/6-14.htm

 

[TenEightyOne]

How I word my response will largely depend on what translation. Care to answer that question first?

For English interpretations one should normally read Wycliffe.

 

[DLR_Mysterion]

Outlier in what regard

Outlier in the statistical sense.

For example if we were to expand the dates to 1900 the Armenian genocide would be included and completely obliterate all the non-Islamic religious violence you could provide.

Except it doesn't. You made a claim that terrorism from all other religions combined can't come close to Islamist Terrorism, you are provided with an example from one Christian terrorist group alone that does. Now I know you like to pick specific time periods, but I'm not aware that terrorism started 16 years ago.

See above as to outliers.

I used 16 years as that's when TROP started tracking Islamic attacks so it was a logical point to start with. Even including your example - you haven't provided proof contrary to my statement.

Militia =/= Terrorist.

You seem very reluctant to use the term Christian and Terrorist together (well unless the words 'victim of' are added between them

I have no problem with that. But even your sources say it was a Christian/Acohli/personality cult driven organisation.

You might want to not talk about outliers in that regard then, I don't recall you setting that as a condition of your original stance.

I was clear in the post, as in post 9/11

And I see no-one has tried to address the 3 points I made in the last post.

I read about this idiot a few days ago, what astounds me is that someone who clearly is a self described Muslim (as i assume this person is) would get the translation and meaning of this wrong.

It's not 'friends' but rather a closer and more accurate translation would be sponsor or patron.

It doesn't says they can't be friends, rather that from a religious perspective Jew follow Jewish religious patrons, Christians follow Christian patrons and Muslims follow Muslim patrons.

You know a little like Christian verses do, i mean Matthew 10 is pretty much all about how everyone who isn't Christian will be out to get you, will try and kill you and shouldn't be trusted.

So Matthew 10 is the same as:

O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you - then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people.

Or

O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.

Or

O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as Auliya' (friends, protectors, helpers, etc.), they are but Auliya' to one another. And if any amongst you takes them as Auliya', then surely he is one of them. Verily, Allah guides not those people who are the Zalimun (polytheists and wrongdoers and unjust).

-----

Interesting

 

[Scaff]

Outlier in the statistical sense.

For example if we were to expand the dates to 1900 the Armenian genocide would be included and completely obliterate all the non-Islamic religious violence you could provide.

If your moving the goalposts to that degree your going to lose and lose hard.

Can you not think of another event in the 20th century that targeted a single religion and was (by the leader in questions own words) done in the name of his creator?

See above as to outliers.

I used 16 years as that's when TROP started tracking Islamic attacks so it was a logical point to start with. Even including your example - you haven't provided proof contrary to my statement.

Oh but we have, you just don't accept it.

I have no problem with that. But even your sources say it was a Christian/Acohli/personality cult driven organisation.

Just use the words 'christian terrorism', I promise your not going to get struck down.

They are not an organisation or a militia, they are terrorists and they are Christian.

I was clear in the post, as in post 9/11

And I see no-one has tried to address the 3 points I made in the last post.

Please define terrorism, as you seem to want a definition that suits your specific outcome.

So Matthew 10 is the same as:

O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you - then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people.

Or

O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.

Or

O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as Auliya' (friends, protectors, helpers, etc.), they are but Auliya' to one another. And if any amongst you takes them as Auliya', then surely he is one of them. Verily, Allah guides not those people who are the Zalimun (polytheists and wrongdoers and unjust).

-----

Interesting

Interesting indeed.

I addressed all of these points and provided both explaination and only two posts down an alternative chapter and verse.

'Do not be yolked together with unbelievers', now unless you are back on the nonsense of Jews accepting Jesus as a Messiah again, that pretty much excludes Christians from associating with any non-Christians.

Interesting that you utterly ignored that.

Please explain why you did do.

 

[GTboyz]

My view on this religion ? It caused so much backlash in my city. A lot of ****** used religion and shoved it into politics. Hell, i'm not surprised if their agenda is to turn my country from democracy to islamic since they're not the minorities here.

Edit : it's confirmed, my city doesn't deserve a good, honest, hard working governor. Lots of idiots. ****. Lots of people choose some bigot over someone my current governor who isn't christian. Lots of muslims insulting chinese ethnic (some saying chinese, christians who supports my current governor deserves to be gangraped or something). Yeah you guys in your country which have them as minorities can take a look at how horrible they are in Indonesia.

Now we got this bigot fruit giving speech on how holy they are. It's bullcrap.

 

[FoRiZon]

My view on this religion ? It caused so much backlash in my city. A lot of ****** used religion and shoved it into politics. Hell, i'm not surprised if their agenda is to turn my country from democracy to islamic since they're not the minorities here.

Edit : it's confirmed, my city doesn't deserve a good, honest, hard working governor. Lots of idiots. ****. Lots of people choose some bigot over someone my current governor who isn't christian. Lots of muslims insulting chinese ethnic (some saying chinese, christians who supports my current governor deserves to be gangraped or something). Yeah you guys in your country which have them as minorities can take a look at how horrible they are in Indonesia.

Now we got this bigot fruit giving speech on how holy they are. It's bullcrap.

I let this website say itself because I don't care anymore.

https://www.thetoptens.com/most-hated-countries/indonesia-506216.asp

 

[GTboyz]

http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/...-claiming-gang-rape-of-ahok-voters-halal.html

Awesome.

 

[TenEightyOne]

http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/...-claiming-gang-rape-of-ahok-voters-halal.html

Awesome.

"Man on facebook is idiot, thinks rape is okay". Sadly that's not really news any more.