Islam - What's your view on it?

[ToyGTone]

Humans are still humans no matter their beliefs. Being a Muslim doesn't mean it will stop you from getting drunk every weekend or being a racist who does hate crimes against other races.

So why would it stop wars? Same applies to other religions or atheists. Humans are never perfect and will never be.

I mean it might make a world a bit better or worse but definitely won't make the world a %100 peaceful place no matter what people believed in.

 

[mustafur]

The world might just be a little less stupid.

Thats a win for me anyway.

 

[Johnnypenso]

How about if the world had no religion at all? Surely that's a better answer than everyone on earth following the rules of yet another ancient pile of crap to become servile sheeple.

And no, people would still fight over borders, wealth, resources and other stuff even if every one was Muslim. You only need to look at the Sunni - Shia rivalry and bloodshed to answer your own question. Islam is at war with itself as much as it is with the west.

Which Christian and Jewish countries are full of servile sheeple?

 

[UKMikey]

Being a Muslim doesn't mean it will stop you from getting drunk every weekend

Maybe not but it will if you are devout. Drinking alcohol is forbidden under the religion.

 

[ToyGTone]

Maybe not but it will if you are devout. Drinking alcohol is forbidden under the religion.

It's forbidden in islam but it doesn't mean you automatically become non muslim for doing so. Same with adultery. Like I said before, no human is perfect.

 

[huskeR32]

Which Christian and Jewish countries are full of servile sheeple?

Which Islam countries are?

Unless you consider people living in fear under a violent, oppressive regime to be "sheeple?" I'd say that's a fairly callous way to view people who live in those conditions.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Which Islam countries are?

Unless you consider people living in fear under a violent, oppressive regime to be "sheeple?" I'd say that's a fairly callous way to view people who live in those conditions.

I'll explain it to you once. The inference was that all religions inevitably lead to a population of servile sheeple. I'd like to see some examples of predominantly Christian and Jewish (the other two religions specifically mentioned in the post that was responded to) nations that are full of servile sheeple.

 

[huskeR32]

I'll explain it to you once.

Thank you, oh wise one.

The inference implication was that all religions inevitably lead to a population of servile sheeple.

That bit in bold is key. The original question didn't make any distinctions - it assumed that all religions shared the same downside.

Your response, on the other hand...

I'd like to see some examples of predominantly Christian and Jewish (the other two religions specifically mentioned in the post that was responded to) nations that are full of servile sheeple.

...carries the implication that Islam does indeed suffer from that problem, but Christianity and Judaism do not.

Hence, my wondering which Islamic countries fit the bill. You seem to be taking it for granted as true, so you must have some examples you can provide.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Thank you, oh wise one.



That bit in bold is key. The original question didn't make any distinctions - it assumed that all religions shared the same downside.

Your response, on the other hand...



...carries the implication that Islam does indeed suffer from that problem, but Christianity and Judaism do not.

Hence, my wondering which Islamic countries fit the bill. You seem to be taking it for granted as true, so you must have some examples you can provide.

Questions are requests for information. Feel free to draw any conclusions you wish from them.

 

[W3H5]

Which Christian and Jewish countries are full of servile sheeple?

I wasn't talking about countries but religions. The end game of most religions is control over elements of ones life, and while the term I used may be a bit extreme, it was just hyperbole, if you like. In the case of Islam, the very terminology is a synonym for obedience and submission.

 

[DLR_Mysterion]

If your moving the goalposts to that degree your going to lose and lose hard.

Can you not think of another event in the 20th century that targeted a single religion and was (by the leader in questions own words) done in the name of his creator?

The holocaust was a Christian movement?

From the guy (Hitler) who said:

According to Speer, Hitler stated in private, "The Mohammedan religion too would have been much more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness?"

Oh but we have, you just don't accept it.

Erm. Not really. You've provided one example

Just use the words 'christian terrorism', I promise your not going to get struck down.

They are not an organisation or a militia, they are terrorists and they are Christian.

Yeah they are (terrorists)

Interesting indeed.

I addressed all of these points and provided both explaination and only two posts down an alternative chapter and verse.

'Do not be yolked together with unbelievers', now unless you are back on the nonsense of Jews accepting Jesus as a Messiah again, that pretty much excludes Christians from associating with any non-Christians.

Interesting that you utterly ignored that.

Please explain why you did do.

So you're saying that the letter to the Corinthians inspires what Christians do?

Despite the fact that the most tolerant nations are generally Christian, and the least tolerant are Islamic?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/maps-and-graphics/mapped-the-most-tolerant-countries/

Despite the fact that we have these stories:

https://www.dawn.com/news/1327428/christian-man-tortured-in-sheikhupura-for-befriending-muslim-woman
http://www.newsweek.com/christians-conflict-middle-east-easter-584859

 

[Scaff]

The holocaust was a Christian movement?

From the guy (Hitler) who said:

According to Speer, Hitler stated in private, "The Mohammedan religion too would have been much more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness?"

In Hitlers own words:

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."[117]

"His [the Jewish person's] life is only of this world, and his spirit is inwardly as alien to true Christianity as his nature two thousand years previous was to the great founder of the new doctrine. Of course, the latter made no secret of his attitude toward the Jewish people, and when necessary he even took to the whip to drive from the temple of the Lord this adversary of all humanity, who then as always saw in religion nothing but an instrument for his business existence. In return, Christ was nailed to the cross, while our present-day party Christians debase themselves to begging for Jewish votes at elections and later try to arrange political swindles with atheistic Jewish parties—and this against their own nation."

"made no secret of his attitude toward the Jewish people, and when necessary he even took the whip to drive from the temple of the Lord this adversary of all humanity, who then as always saw in religion nothing but an instrument for his business existence. In return, Christ was nailed to the cross."
Source - Mein Kampf.

He also promoted a form of Christianity not based in traditional Catholic or Protestant faiths:

"The two Christian denominations look on with indifference at the profanation and destruction of a noble and unique creature who was given to the world as a gift of God's grace. For the future of the world, however, it does not matter which of the two triumphs over the other, the Catholic or the Protestant. But it does matter whether Aryan humanity survives or perishes."
Mein Kampf again.

Now a very strong argument exists to say that Hitler was using Christianity (or his version of it) to achieve his own ends, however given that the exact same can be said for the vast, vast majority of Muslim extremist groups and you consistently post with out distinction between them and the majority of Muslims, I see no reason for you to accept any different a standard in regard to Christianity.

Erm. Not really. You've provided one example

Which has operated on a similar scale and while they are not alone I saw no mention of a specific number of groups needing to be identified?

Yeah they are (terrorists)

Still can't do it I see.

So you're saying that the letter to the Corinthians inspires what Christians do?

Is it or is it not God's word?

If its is then it certainly should, if its not then that throws the entire text into doubht.

You see once again you are displaying a huge double standard when it comes to your own faith and Islam. That you seem to be utterly unable to even see that is concerning (but not surprising).

Despite the fact that the most tolerant nations are generally Christian, and the least tolerant are Islamic?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/maps-and-graphics/mapped-the-most-tolerant-countries/

Actually a good number of them are secular or majority atheist!

While 3 of the bottom 10 are majority Christian and all bar a handful have been war zones.

You also forget to mention that only one (secular and 40% atheist) South American country makes the top twenty (despite the heavy Christian following in the others), while the US (God fearing that it is) only manages to get in at 25

Just maybe other factors are also at play here?

Despite the fact that we have these stories:

https://www.dawn.com/news/1327428/christian-man-tortured-in-sheikhupura-for-befriending-muslim-woman
http://www.newsweek.com/christians-conflict-middle-east-easter-584859

And once again you resort to form.

 

[GTboyz]

Agreed, which is why Hijab (without any of those face cluttering thing) exists.


On the other hand....

Spoiler

I stop supporting this. I dont really like its culture it grown and the people are just too conservative to move on. I bet they keep like this for centuries ahead, I bet.

No offense but when most of people now against this..... Im just give up completely. Good luck.

Yeah, after the government election weeks ago, the radicals and all the people in this religion keep on discriminating other religions and for some reason also resort to much worse racism than usual. I think this election has opened our eyes on how screwed our country is in terms of race and religion.

Oh, and what would happen if there are no religions ? Well, granted there would still be wars, but the reasons would be less stupid.

 

[LeMansAid]

Oh, and what would happen if there are no religions ? Well, granted there would still be wars, but the reasons would be less stupid.

If only. Higher power rhymes with fire power, and evidence for the latter in Iraq was as real as evidence is for the former.

Poetry in commotion.

 

[novcze]

Yeah, after the government election weeks ago, the radicals and all the people in this religion keep on discriminating other religions and for some reason also resort to much worse racism than usual.

If this was written by someone from the western world, usual reply line would be not enough personal contact and too much breitbart.

 

[GTboyz]

If this was written by someone from the western world, usual reply line would be not enough personal contact and too much breitbart.

Well it's just a way we call each other on this country. It's the most polite rather then them calling the minorities "infidels".

 

[Imari]

Despite the fact that the most tolerant nations are generally Christian, and the least tolerant are Islamic?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/maps-and-graphics/mapped-the-most-tolerant-countries/

Of course, you will have noted the two large red areas on the map marking Russia and China, neither of which are small countries.

 

[DLR_Mysterion]

In Hitlers own words:

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."[117]

"His [the Jewish person's] life is only of this world, and his spirit is inwardly as alien to true Christianity as his nature two thousand years previous was to the great founder of the new doctrine. Of course, the latter made no secret of his attitude toward the Jewish people, and when necessary he even took to the whip to drive from the temple of the Lord this adversary of all humanity, who then as always saw in religion nothing but an instrument for his business existence. In return, Christ was nailed to the cross, while our present-day party Christians debase themselves to begging for Jewish votes at elections and later try to arrange political swindles with atheistic Jewish parties—and this against their own nation."

"made no secret of his attitude toward the Jewish people, and when necessary he even took the whip to drive from the temple of the Lord this adversary of all humanity, who then as always saw in religion nothing but an instrument for his business existence. In return, Christ was nailed to the cross."
Source - Mein Kampf.

He also promoted a form of Christianity not based in traditional Catholic or Protestant faiths:

"The two Christian denominations look on with indifference at the profanation and destruction of a noble and unique creature who was given to the world as a gift of God's grace. For the future of the world, however, it does not matter which of the two triumphs over the other, the Catholic or the Protestant. But it does matter whether Aryan humanity survives or perishes."
Mein Kampf again.

Now a very strong argument exists to say that Hitler was using Christianity (or his version of it) to achieve his own ends, however given that the exact same can be said for the vast, vast majority of Muslim extremist groups and you consistently post with out distinction between them and the majority of Muslims, I see no reason for you to accept any different a standard in regard to Christianity.

....so you're saying that ISIS would say, switching out certain nouns (according to your own source):

while also suggesting to Speer that "ultimately not Arabs, but Islamized Germans could have stood at the head of this Mohammedan Empire."[203] Hitler said that the Germans would have become heirs to "a religion that believed in spreading the faith by the sword and in subjugating all nations to that faith. Such a creed was perfectly suited to the German temperament."

About Christianity?????

You really can't see that the Holocaust was a state sponsored genocide?????

Which has operated on a similar scale and while they are not alone I saw no mention of a specific number of groups needing to be identified?

Which still isn't what I proposed in my original argument

Still can't do it I see.

Christian terrorism? I'm so confused

Is it or is it not God's word?

If its is then it certainly should, if its not then that throws the entire text into doubht.

You see once again you are displaying a huge double standard when it comes to your own faith and Islam. That you seem to be utterly unable to even see that is concerning (but not surprising).

So you're comparing the letters to Corinthians to prescriptive texts for Muslims. Unless....any Muslims want to weigh in and say that the Koran wasn't referring to modern day Muslims?

Actually a good number of them are secular or majority atheist!

While 3 of the bottom 10 are majority Christian and all bar a handful have been war zones.

OK so I'll do "Country x religion" in google, then go to wikipedia and see what we get:

Top 5

Luxembourg 72% Christian
Canada 67% Christian
New Zealand 48% Christian
Iceland 85% Christian
Ireland 82% Christian

Lowest 5

Afghanistan 99% Islam
Sudan 97% Islam
Yemen "Nearly all" Islam
Egypt 88% Islam
Iran 99% Islam

And once again you resort to form.

Which....is....?

 

[huskeR32]

So you're comparing the letters to Corinthians to prescriptive texts for Muslims.

Why not?

Unless....any Muslims want to weigh in and say that the Koran wasn't referring to modern day Muslims?

You give that benefit of the doubt to the Bible by default, but hold the Koran to a different standard. That's the point.

 

[DLR_Mysterion]

Why not?

The Corinthian passage isn't prescriptive in all circumstances. There are allowances for interfaith marriage.

You give that benefit of the doubt to the Bible by default, but hold the Koran to a different standard. That's the point.

Hmmm not all parts of the Bible

 

[huskeR32]

The Corinthian passage isn't prescriptive in all circumstances.

Which circumstances? How do you know?

Hmmm not all parts of the Bible

Okay...

You give that benefit of the doubt to some parts of the Bible by default, but hold the Koran to a different standard. That's the point.

Happy? Point remains.

 

[Scaff]

....so you're saying that ISIS would say, switching out certain nouns (according to your own source):

while also suggesting to Speer that "ultimately not Arabs, but Islamized Germans could have stood at the head of this Mohammedan Empire."[203] Hitler said that the Germans would have become heirs to "a religion that believed in spreading the faith by the sword and in subjugating all nations to that faith. Such a creed was perfectly suited to the German temperament."

About Christianity?????

His idea of Christianity, oh and my source is Hitlers own words? As such I'm a little confused, are you saying that Hitlers words are not a good source for Hitler?

His vision of Christianity was of one that was strong and most certainly OT in regard to its enemies, once again Hitlers own words.

You really can't see that the Holocaust was a state sponsored genocide?????

When did I say it wasn't?

The method Hitler used to achieve his aims doesn't change the motivation for those aims.

Which still isn't what I proposed in my original argument

I disagree, but then you did use a focus so narrow and without source that you can bias a position that way.

Christian terrorism? I'm so confused

Really, why?

How long has it taken you to say it!

So you're comparing the letters to Corinthians to prescriptive texts for Muslims. Unless....any Muslims want to weigh in and say that the Koran wasn't referring to modern day Muslims?

Why not?

OK so I'll do "Country x religion" in google, then go to wikipedia and see what we get:

Top 5

Luxembourg 72% Christian
Canada 67% Christian
New Zealand 48% Christian
Iceland 85% Christian
Ireland 82% Christian

Lowest 5

Afghanistan 99% Islam
Sudan 97% Islam
Yemen "Nearly all" Islam
Egypt 88% Islam
Iran 99% Islam

So rather than address the points I raised you move the goalposts and claim victory!

It's akin to playing chess with a pigeon.

Oh and I'm more than happy to discuss the only non-secular country in the top five. Do tell me about the tolerance displayed in Ireland's blasphemy laws, ban on abortion and history of church run child abuse and death.

Edited to add, Ireland looking to file criminal charges against Steven Fry for blasphemy, way to be a top five tolerant country. So the only non secular one of the lot is attempting to make someone a criminal for being rude to God.

Which....is....?

A rather obvious (well to everyone else) double standard between your chosen faith and one you seem to have a big issue with.

The Corinthian passage isn't prescriptive in all circumstances. There are allowances for interfaith marriage.

And?

Hmmm not all parts of the Bible

Interesting, which parts are wrong?

 

[LeMansAid]

Isn't it up to God which rules you should follow?

I believe so, even if it isn't made clear in the Bible.

previously.....

Which loose ends

 

[Dotini]

Strange US military encounters with the Djinn in the middle east.

http://mysteriousuniverse.org/2017/05/strange-military-encounters-with-the-jinn/

Person being executed for black magic in Saudi Arabia

 

[BobK]

http://mysteriousuniverse.org/2017/05/strange-military-encounters-with-the-jinn/

Where do you come up with this stuff, @Dotini?

 

[W3H5]

How do they prove he practised black magic?

 

[UKMikey]

How do they prove he practised black magic?

Maybe they use a ducking stool?

Widespread lack of education is a terrible thing.

 

[Dotini]

Where do you come up with this stuff, @Dotini?

My first encounter with the Djinn (featured in Islamic literature beginning with the Koran) came in the 7th Voyage of Sinbad, 1958, starring Kerwin Mathews.

 

[Scaff]

featured in Islamic literature beginning with the Koran

References to Jinn predate the Koran by quite a period of time, and are a common reference in many of the regions older religions

 

[Dotini]

References to Jinn predate the Koran by quite a period of time, and are a common reference in many of the regions older religions

I strongly encourage you to comment upon the Djinn and educate us with your storehouse of knowledge - and any experience you might have - with the subject. I have read that Muhammad, author of the Koran, remarked that his visions which led to the writing of the Koran may have been deceptions of the Djinn.