Islam - What's your view on it?

[Scaff]

I strongly encourage you to comment upon the Djinn and educate us with your storehouse of knowledge - and any experience you might have - with the subject. I have read that Muhammad, author of the Koran, remarked that his visions which led to the writing of the Koran may have been deceptions of the Djinn.

Not my storehouse of knowledge, rather a simple understanding of the entamology of the word.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jinn#Etymology

 

[Dotini]

Not my storehouse of knowledge, rather a simple understanding of the entamology of the word.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jinn#Etymology

I thought you knew Muslims and had traveled extensively in Islamic countries??

 

[Scaff]

I thought you knew Muslims and had traveled extensively in Islamic countries??

I have, but independent sources are surely not a bad thing?

 

[Dotini]

I have, but independent sources are surely not a bad thing?

No, but I imagined you may have discussed the subject of jinn during your travels and interactions. No?

Edit:
From my limited discussions with Muslims in this forum and elsewhere, I gather they are considered to be real, and are to be taken seriously.

The source you cited is okay as far as it goes, but seems to be predicated on our western secular materialist assumption that jinn are necessarily "supernatural", and therefore should not be considered real or taken seriously.

 

[Scaff]

No, but I imagined you may have discussed the subject of jinn during your travels and interactions. No?

No more often than I discuss fairies with people during my travels in Europe.

 

[Dotini]

No more often than I discuss fairies with people during my travels in Europe.

I would imagine that most Celts have either converted to Christianity (and given up fairies for angels) or become secular, and have left their pagan mythology well behind. Or maybe not entirely? But most Muslims probably don't fall into that boat. I take it that, out of diffidence, you would studiously avoid the subject of fairies with Celts and the subject of jinn with Muslims? Because of your secular/materialist beliefs, do you avoid the subject of religion entirely when in the company of Muslims? Would or should a Christian discuss such subjects with Celts or Muslims? How about a secular mythologist?

 

[Scaff]

I would imagine that most Celts have either converted to Christianity (and given up fairies for angels) or become secular, and have left their pagan mythology well behind. Or maybe not entirely? But most Muslims probably don't fall into that boat. I take it that, out of diffidence, you would studiously avoid the subject of fairies with Celts and the subject of jinn with Muslims? Because of your secular/materialist beliefs, do you avoid the subject of religion entirely when in the company of Muslims? Would or should a Christian discuss such subjects with Celts or Muslims? How about a secular mythologist?

Nope, much like anyone else I discuss topics and subjects as they naturally evolve in the course of human interaction.

 

[Dotini]

Nope, much like anyone else I discuss topics and subjects as they naturally evolve in the course of human interaction.

Isn't your basic human interaction in the middle east in the nature of commercial business?

 

[Scaff]

Isn't your basic human interaction in the middle east in the nature of commercial business?

Yes, however not one single conversation has ever naturally evolved into the subject of supernatural beings that I can recall.

 

[Dotini]

Yes, however not one single conversation has ever naturally evolved into the subject of supernatural beings that I can recall.

Probably for the very understandable reason that you could lose business!!

If you were student, an academic, a tourist, and could safely qualify individuals on the topic of angels, gods and demons, you could learn something from Celts or Muslims. But your personal interests are of course your own. You do pretty well with Gran Truismo car tuning! I was attracted to your tuning guide when I got involved in GT4 a few years ago.

 

[Imari]

I would imagine that most Celts have either converted to Christianity (and given up fairies for angels) or become secular, and have left their pagan mythology well behind. Or maybe not entirely? But most Muslims probably don't fall into that boat.

Most Celts have left their pagan mythology behind, but most Muslims probably haven't?

Rough.

 

[Dotini]

Most Celts have left their pagan mythology behind, but most Muslims probably haven't?

Apparently the etymology of Djinn began, or at least existed, with Bedouins, Zoroastrians, Yazidis and other pre-Islamic religions of the middle east. But since Djinn is solidly rooted in the Koran, I do doubt most followers of Islam who haven't converted or become apostate or secular have not crossed the Djinn out of their Korans.

 

[ToyGTone]

I started to think that the only reason why people around the world (especially western) complain about Women or LGBT rights in Arab and Muslim countries is not because they actually care about people in middle east or human rights there but to use it as an excuse to hate Muslims and Arabs.

The problem becomes worse for me when I realised that people who often complain about middle east don't really have much knowledge about it apart from several news of wars and that's it. They don't understand our culture, they don't understand our religion or believes. In the same way, I struggle to talk with communities outside my counrry because they tend to have different culture and believes. What's accepted and not. I mean people actually believe that the word God is different from Allah?

Anyways, I hear people keep telling us that we should die because we are evil and want to kill the rest of the world. The hypocrisy is that they are the ones who wants us to die and suffer for being different. If you want to show how you're actually better and perfect then go and be nicer rather than go aggressive. That's proves nothing to us but that the world is aggressive haters who wants us to die.

If people are truly cares about us middle easterns and care about women & Gay rights here then they should have known that we have other problems too. Economy problems, politics from both sides that doesn't really do justice well, immigrants from Egypt and Jordan taking over our jobs, governments that keep screwing us citizens more and more, environmental issues and so on.

In fact if people TRULY CARE about human rights then why I don't often hear about the awful condition labour workers from India, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Sri Lanka and Philippines...etc that have to do deal with? Working hard, dealing with abusive leaders and extremely hot weather? Those who had to leave their home country?

Women rights shouldn't be the main thing to be complaining about here since its pretty much became much better than it was over 100 years ago. House wife's are a thing of the past. Same with extreme clothing unless you live in Saudi Arabia of course but then that's only what? One country out of 20+ countries in West Asia and north Africa? Why complaint about something that no one in middle east really have problems with anymore when you a legitimate problem that's still big to this very day?

If one thing I have learned from my entire life, it's that there's as much problem over here as the rest of the world. I'm sorry but there's still discrimination against certain race, religion and sexuality around the world. There's no such thing as a country that's %100 perfect.

If anything, I will be much safer to live as a Muslim bisexual in Saudi Arabia than an Arab bisexual than San Francisco. People outside will never understand me right and will never realise I have a different moral levels, family relations and so on...

I'm sorry for my hateful post but I was a bit too pissed off. I kinda wanna go off topic and talk about my opinions towards other culture (no hate but just an opinion) but it's not the right time for me to do it.

 

[mustafur]

Well I know of all the things you talk about and yet i still dispise the treatment of Migrant workers, Women, gays and the non religious alike in the middle east.

I wouldn't say all countries are the same in the treatment as some are worse then others like saudi Arabia for example but it's very far from what is acceptable in my country for example, and sure we have our issues but this is past the life and death stage of acting out.

 

[Scaff]

Apparently the etymology of Djinn began, or at least existed, with Bedouins, Zoroastrians, Yazidis and other pre-Islamic religions of the middle east. But since Djinn is solidly rooted in the Koran, I do doubt most followers of Islam who haven't converted or become apostate or secular have not crossed the Djinn out of their Korans.

And Christians believe in Angels, off both sorts.

Which again have roots in older faiths.

As such you seem to be trying to force a point that isn't actually one.

 

[Dotini]

And Christians believe in Angels, off both sorts.

Which again have roots in older faiths.

As such you seem to be trying to force a point that isn't actually one.

Nope. I'm merely trying to engage in conversation regarding jinn. Hopefully with Muslims, but any cognizant and interested party will suffice. But the fact seems to be nobody at this forum at the moment is in interested in jinn. Or angels for that matter. These are essentially subjects too remote, arcane and distant for modern folks' conversations in the present secular western world. So, far from forcing anything, I'm more than willing to drop the discussion. But thanks anyway for your contribution.

 

[DLR_Mysterion]

I started to think that the only reason why people around the world (especially western) complain about Women or LGBT rights in Arab and Muslim countries is not because they actually care about people in middle east or human rights there but to use it as an excuse to hate Muslims and Arabs.

The problem becomes worse for me when I realised that people who often complain about middle east don't really have much knowledge about it apart from several news of wars and that's it. They don't understand our culture, they don't understand our religion or believes. In the same way, I struggle to talk with communities outside my counrry because they tend to have different culture and believes. What's accepted and not. I mean people actually believe that the word God is different from Allah?

Anyways, I hear people keep telling us that we should die because we are evil and want to kill the rest of the world. The hypocrisy is that they are the ones who wants us to die and suffer for being different. If you want to show how you're actually better and perfect then go and be nicer rather than go aggressive. That's proves nothing to us but that the world is aggressive haters who wants us to die.

If people are truly cares about us middle easterns and care about women & Gay rights here then they should have known that we have other problems too. Economy problems, politics from both sides that doesn't really do justice well, immigrants from Egypt and Jordan taking over our jobs, governments that keep screwing us citizens more and more, environmental issues and so on.

In fact if people TRULY CARE about human rights then why I don't often hear about the awful condition labour workers from India, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Sri Lanka and Philippines...etc that have to do deal with? Working hard, dealing with abusive leaders and extremely hot weather? Those who had to leave their home country?

Women rights shouldn't be the main thing to be complaining about here since its pretty much became much better than it was over 100 years ago. House wife's are a thing of the past. Same with extreme clothing unless you live in Saudi Arabia of course but then that's only what? One country out of 20+ countries in West Asia and north Africa? Why complaint about something that no one in middle east really have problems with anymore when you a legitimate problem that's still big to this very day?

If one thing I have learned from my entire life, it's that there's as much problem over here as the rest of the world. I'm sorry but there's still discrimination against certain race, religion and sexuality around the world. There's no such thing as a country that's %100 perfect.

If anything, I will be much safer to live as a Muslim bisexual in Saudi Arabia than an Arab bisexual than San Francisco. People outside will never understand me right and will never realise I have a different moral levels, family relations and so on...

I'm sorry for my hateful post but I was a bit too pissed off. I kinda wanna go off topic and talk about my opinions towards other culture (no hate but just an opinion) but it's not the right time for me to do it.

People do care about those issues. There's been a big hoo-ha about how the Qatar World Cup is being brought about for instance.

I'm not sure the LGBT and women's rights advocates are looking for a reason to hate Arabs and Muslims. In fact I'd go out and say they're unusually silent as a group in condemning such nations.

 

[Imari]

But the fact seems to be nobody at this forum at the moment is in interested in jinn.

I just didn't see the point in starting when you presented them as paganistic as opposed to those "modern" religions who have supposedly left their paganistic roots behind.

Perhaps if you want to start a conversation, start it without prejudging 1.6 billion people. You'll find people more willing to discuss things if what you're initially presenting isn't horrendously biased and inaccurate dribble.

 

[DLR_Mysterion]

Nope. I'm merely trying to engage in conversation regarding jinn. Hopefully with Muslims, but any cognizant and interested party will suffice. But the fact seems to be nobody at this forum at the moment is in interested in jinn. Or angels for that matter. These are essentially subjects too remote, arcane and distant for modern folks' conversations in the present secular western world. So, far from forcing anything, I'm more than willing to drop the discussion. But thanks anyway for your contribution.

I'm interested in it

Although I wouldn't call myself educated in either all that much....

 

[Dotini]

I'm interested in it

Although I wouldn't call myself educated in either all that much....

Thanks for your reply. I've read a few passages from the Koran concerning jinn, none at all from other Islamic literature, and a fair amount from western literature. I'm interested in your take on the Islamic literature concerning jinn that you have read, and particularly in any accounts of relatively modern encounters with jinn that you have read or heard of.

Very respectfully yours,

 

[DLR_Mysterion]

Thanks for your reply. I've read a few passages from the Koran concerning jinn, none at all from other Islamic literature, and a fair amount from western literature. I'm interested in your take on the Islamic literature concerning jinn that you have read, and particularly in any accounts of relatively modern encounters with jinn that you have read or heard of.

Very respectfully yours,

Unfortunately I think there's been a miscommunication - I meant I was interested to see what people would come up with not that I had knowledge to share about jinn!

 

[Danoff]

If one thing I have learned from my entire life, it's that there's as much problem over here as the rest of the world. I'm sorry but there's still discrimination against certain race, religion and sexuality around the world. There's no such thing as a country that's %100 perfect.

That doesn't make everyone equal. And oppression of women is not a minor issue that should take a back seat. If a country is treating half of its members as second-class citizens, that should be exactly where the focus is. It seems that Bahrain has only a minor dusting of Sharia law. I think if you gave most Americans a choice of which country in the middle East to travel to, Bahrain would probably be fairly popular.

When we talk about nations where women are officially considered minors, who can't testify with equal weight in court, and many many other draconian restrictions imposed under Sharia law, that is where the concerns ought to be placed.

 

[ToyGTone]

That doesn't make everyone equal. And oppression of women is not a minor issue that should take a back seat. If a country is treating half of its members as second-class citizens, that should be exactly where the focus is. It seems that Bahrain has only a minor dusting of Sharia law. I think if you gave most Americans a choice of which country in the middle East to travel to, Bahrain would probably be fairly popular.

When we talk about nations where women are officially considered minors, who can't testify in court and many many other draconian restrictions, that is exactly where the concerns should be placed.

Dubai, Qatar, Kuwait, Bahrain...etc they all the same in terms of women treatment. I can't really say about other places like Jordan or Egypt.

I'm interested in what makes women a 1st class or 2nd class citizens in your opinion. I want to learn from you and others and know more on how to voice my opinion on them better. I'm probably wrong about my opinions as I might not understand things correctly. If so then I'm sorry.

About my quote regarding the whole "no country is perfect", what I meant is that some people seems to make their country look like a total heaven with not a single problem going on and then make us look like we're from North Korea. Sure, criticise our royal families with their "above the law" status and we the average citizens getting ****ed over. Praise your country and be proud of it. Just please I don't wanna see anyone pretending and lying on how their people and laws are flawless and how there's isn't such thing as crimes, wars, discrimination...etc.

If only I were born as a women and could speak better about the problems.

 

[Danoff]

I'm interested in what makes women a 1st class or 2nd class citizens in your opinion.

Laws that treat them differently arbitrarily (in a way that is more restrictive). This is encoded in the US constitution as "equal protection under the law".

The US had a discriminatory legal structure for a long time for both women and black people. I'm not pretending that the US is perfect or has a clear history in this area. It's not something that should be tolerated though. We have a long and sometimes violent history of learning not to tolerate it within our borders.

 

[Dennisch]

The Koran says that no one is guaranteed entry into heaven, especially those who have sinned, except for those who die fighting the infidels.

So peaceful.

 

[novcze]

some people seems to make their country look like a total heaven with not a single problem going on

Isn't it just your perception? If there is some topic, looks like islamic terrorism is popular lately, I can go on a tirade about how perfect my country is (because we have little to no muslim population), but that doesn't mean we don't have other problems, it's just topic is different.

And I would be very surprised if someone on the GTPlanet behaves like you have described. But I don't track every thread here so I may be wrong and you may have a valid reason to be upset.

 

[TenEightyOne]

The Koran says that no one is guaranteed entry into heaven, especially those who have sinned, except for those who die fighting the infidels.

So peaceful.

Same as Christianity of course, but that's hardly surprising. Killing on God's command is quite lawful for christers.

 

[PeterJB]

Which is a moot point since Monday's attacker was not a Christian.

 

[Dennisch]

Same as Christianity of course, but that's hardly surprising. Killing on God's command is quite lawful for christers.

I urge you to find my first post in this thread.

 

[Danoff]

Same as Christianity of course, but that's hardly surprising. Killing on God's command is quite lawful for christers.

...except the part in the 10 commandments which says thou shalt not kill. So confusing. Yahweh needs to get it straight, do we kill the infidels or not? He says yes and no (across books). He certainly makes no bones about his followers needing to be willing to kill their own children on command.

...but it's all super consistent because God.