Islam - What's your view on it?

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DCP
Does the quran not have a command not to add, remove or change it's contents?...

It's believed by some that Allah protects the islaamic bible... history shows us that isn't the case, while Uthman texts are the most prevalent they are not original.

DCP
Notice how even some of Islams top scholars deny / shy away from what the book actually says.

You could make the same argument about the christian bible - there are differing interpretations according, in many cases, to simple preference. That's why so many translations (particularly modern US bibles) err from the original, they're simply "re-interpreted", and not always from a solid root.

Perhaps "shy away" is the wrong phrase, to me that implies that they're in the wrong. I know a number of people of different religions (great debates there :) ) who follow the way of their religion without the need to literally interpret it into modern life. That includes muslims, incidentally.
 
I like this discussion and I not bailing out on it but I've had a long day and I'm exhausted.

I'm on a constant learning curve, discovering new information all the time so I'll just add a small bit relevant to the latest points.

I was under an impression, given to me by study of Muslim clerics, that Muhammad's word via the Qur'an is infallible and is not subject to interpretation or alteration.

From further research I've read accounts from other Muslim clerics that say His teachings are interpreted differently by the various schools of Islam.

Can I get some clarification on this? Different interpretations mean somebody is going to be considered 'wrong' at some point along the line.

I accept that vague verses will often have the gaps filled in by whoever, as is the need for it when this occurs with any scriptures.

It would seem that the fundamentalists adopt the form of Islam that is as fresh as the day it poured from Muhammad's mount-hole and that the moderate Muslims (if that's what they wish to be called) are opting to assimilate the teachings of the Prophet into modern life and civilization, picking and choosing what to abide by.

Can I get a Muslim's take on this, preferable with a mention of the version of Islam that they are a part of.

Thanks. Will be back when I'm less busy tomorrow.
 
It's believed by some that Allah protects the islaamic bible... history shows us that isn't the case, while Uthman texts are the most prevalent they are not original.



You could make the same argument about the christian bible - there are differing interpretations according, in many cases, to simple preference. That's why so many translations (particularly modern US bibles) err from the original, they're simply "re-interpreted", and not always from a solid root.

Perhaps "shy away" is the wrong phrase, to me that implies that they're in the wrong. I know a number of people of different religions (great debates there :) ) who follow the way of their religion without the need to literally interpret it into modern life. That includes muslims, incidentally.

If Authors are copying the bible from the wrong, modern sources, then you have a point, but not those of origin.
I also don't see how you get different interpretations, unless those are completely different.
Here is another problem they had at the time of the Islamic prophets death, so it's hard to accept that this book has never been changed.

 
I like this discussion and I not bailing out on it but I've had a long day and I'm exhausted.

I'm on a constant learning curve, discovering new information all the time so I'll just add a small bit relevant to the latest points.

I was under an impression, given to me by study of Muslim clerics, that Muhammad's word via the Qur'an is infallible and is not subject to interpretation or alteration.

From further research I've read accounts from other Muslim clerics that say His teachings are interpreted differently by the various schools of Islam.

Can I get some clarification on this? Different interpretations mean somebody is going to be considered 'wrong' at some point along the line.

I accept that vague verses will often have the gaps filled in by whoever, as is the need for it when this occurs with any scriptures.

It would seem that the fundamentalists adopt the form of Islam that is as fresh as the day it poured from Muhammad's mount-hole and that the moderate Muslims (if that's what they wish to be called) are opting to assimilate the teachings of the Prophet into modern life and civilization, picking and choosing what to abide by.

Can I get a Muslim's take on this, preferable with a mention of the version of Islam that they are a part of.

Thanks. Will be back when I'm less busy tomorrow.


It's amazing that you asked this, because a young scholar was just talking about this the other day. Well, by talking about this I meant slating Muslims about this. Again, before I start I will point out I am no Islamic scholar, so I may not have all the answers at all. So here we go (and I will try my best to keep this from a perspective of someone who does believe in Islam so I hope you guys take it from that perspective first please), but we really need to go right back to the basics.


Islam is based on two fundamental parts. The first is the Qur'an, which is the word of God. It is split into three sections, with 30 volumes, 114 chapters, in two eras (Makkan and Madyan) and was revealed over the course of 23 years or so. The order it is read in (Starting with "Al Fatiha" - The Opening, and ending with "An Naas" - The Mankind) in the Mushraf (this is what a physical copy of the Quraan is referred to) is not the order the Quraan was revealed but an order that was given to Muhammad by the Archangel Gabriel. The first revealation in the cave on the mountain of Hira is actually one of the last chapters in the Quraan as it is in physical form.

Now the 30 volumes of the quraan do not really matter so much, it is more for reading, but the timing of the chapters revealations (and some were not revealed altogether) and where they were revealed is the key to understanding the Qur'an. Shem, you said it yourself when you put out the fact (and this is a fact) that there are parts of the Qur'an that talk about war, and conquest and rule. No doubt about it. But like I said, it is the situation, the time and place that the verses came out. But how does a Muslim understand that part? See if you wanted to give Islam a, shall we say a critisism, it is that it is not just a religion but more of a way of life. And this is where the problem comes about in todays world. Because it is a way of life in many ways the questions arise about the letter of the Qur'an and how is it that Muslim scholars can ignore it, whilst others follow it to the letter and end up using the Qur'an to go about killing and bombing etc, what I am going to refer to in post (lecture, rant, rave?) as "terrorism" or maybe "Islamic terrorism" if I need to specifically differentiate, but we can talk about that later. For us to understand that we need to start looking at the Qur'an in more depth, starting with the two eras.


Era One is the Makkan period. The chapters/verses that are dated to this time are mostly calls to Islam. Era Two is the Madyan period and these is more where rules and regulations came about. This is not to say one or the other period did not have aspects of the other in it.

The three parts of the Qur'an are roughly translated to be "Oneness", "Laws and By-laws" and "Stories". The Oneness verses you can guess are exactly that. They reinforce the worship of one God, and ascribing no partners to him. This third of the Qur'an is actually perfectly highlighted in Chapter 112, titled "Ikhlaas" - Oneness. But I won't start providing any explanation for that very short chapter because it is very simple in understanding and thank goodness is cannot be interpreted in any other way than it is.

"Laws and By-laws" appear in many places in the Qur'an, but more so in the Madyan chapters. We need to come back to these, because these are the parts of the Qur'an that are often twisted or used.

"Stories" is pretty self explanatory. Story of Moses and the Pharoh, Mary the mother of Jesus, Adam and Satan, Noah's Ark, Jonah and the Whale etc etc.


So now we have worked out what the Qur'an contains roughly. Next we need to look at the second fundamental part of Islam: the Hadith. The Hadith are a collection of narrations which highlight the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad. This is how a Muslim learns how to practise his religion. In a nutshell, the Qur'an is the guide, the Prophet (and indeed Prophets BEFORE Muhammad, as shown in the Qur'an itself) are the role models. We look at the Hadith in 4 categories. "Strong", "Good", "Weak", "Fabricated". This is something that the Western media/political figures (note I am not saying the people, and most certainly not pointing at all of the media or political figures) often misses out, which is what we need to make clear. Amazingly, the one that was mentioned just a couple of posts ago about the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and Zainab, who was originally the wife of the adopted child of the Prophet (which again I am not going to explain for otherwise this post will not be finished for the next week, but the video in my previous post will explain that if you have seven minutes).



So now we have got the Qur'an and we have the Hadith, which forms the guide for a Muslim. Then we have "Sunni and Shia" (and other, much smaller groups) but that is something I may touch on later. I am going to focus more on the Sunni side, simply because my knowledge of Shia Islam is far far more limited than Sunni Islam, sadly. Time to now break it down to what we call the "Fiqh", which is where we get to the different "Schools of thought". There are 4 primary schools of thought that are agreed upon in Islam. "Hanafi", "Shafi", "Humbali", "Maliki". The leaders of these schools of thought are known as the four great Imams of Islam, and all four schools follow the same fundamental principles, with the differences occurring lower down in the more trivial matters. An example of this is the rulings regarding the shortening of prayer, or the way one should fold their hands when praying. And there is some differences of opinions on how the Hadith (particularly the "good" or "weak" ones). I myself am a Sunni Muslim, following the Hanafi school of thought. Does that mean I believe the other schools of thought are incorrect? Not at all. You see, the idea of different interpretations of Islam IS allowed within certain limitations. Am I saying ISIS is a valid interpretation of Islam? Oh gosh, no. Am I saying that a Muslim who prays his/her prayer in a slightly different way incorrect in Islam? No. If they follow a particular school of thought, that is what they should follow. But let's make clear that these schools of thought are established centuries ago. Not new creations. For example, Abu Hanifa (the father of the Hanafi school of thought, who is also considered the great imam in some parts of Shia Islam) was actually the teacher of Imam Shafi (father of the Shafi school of thought). The idea behind the different schools of thought was the areas they were in. There was no fighting between them, and the followers of any of them were not meant to be slated by any other Muslim. All those schools of thoughts are valid and correct, something that again the west likes to play on at times.



Now we have a rough (because I am not an expert) explanation of how Islam works. Time for us to start looking at what the media like to play upon.

I want to start with that verse 2:190, 2:191 and 2:192:

"Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God does not love transgressors"

"And fight them wherever you catch them, and turn them out from where they turned you out, for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but do not fight them at the Sacred Mosque, unless they fight you there; but if they fight you, fight them. Such is the rewards of those who supress faith."

"But if they cease, God is the most forgiving, most merciful"


Immediately we can see from this that with the verse before and after it, the actual verse in between (which is the one quoted usually alongside "Islam - A religion of hate" or something of the sort) has far more meaning around it than it seems. These particular verses (and nobody can deny the verses clearly state mortal fighting. The word "kitaal" (which is the Arabic word for wounding with intent to kill by the way, not Jihad as it seems to have been made to be) is used in these three verses EIGHT times. So we have the clear instruction of the Qur'an here, and if we left it at that then the media is right, Islam is a warlike religion with the Qur'an itself saying to kill people. But, unlike parts of the media, we cannot leave it just there because we're not sensationalists and we do not have to sell a story. So we need to further explore this circumstance of these verses.


These verses are from the time of a treaty being struck called the Treaty of Hudaybiyah. This treaty was in simple terms the conditions which allowed the Muslims to visit Makkah from Madinah to perform the pilgrimage. One of the treaty points was about no fighting between the Muslims and the Quraish, but there was a very tense sense of mistrust between the two communities. As such, many of the Muslims were asking what they could do if they were attacked, with regards to the treaty. So the verse was revealed that if they fight you then you fight them back but NOT a step more than they fight you. The instruction was clear that only if they attacked first. And then the next verse was explaining what was happening. So if they were trying to kill you then the Muslims were to kill them. Take the next verse now; the moment they stopped the Muslims were to also stop. Three verses, all related to one incident in which the circumstances do not exist, and have not existed for a good 1400 years or so. We're starting to understand a little more about the Qur'an now than we did before from the media.



I am going to move away from the Qur'an a little now and focus more on what the Prophet taught us (related to the Qur'an perhaps yes, but not categorically in the Qur'an). The one I want to really point to is the treaty that was made in Madinah, between the Muslims, Christians, Jews and Zorastrians. Now if what the terrorists, be it Islamic terrorists or not, is something that seems to be a fundamental form of Islam, then how is it treaties like the one in Madinah even existed. How is it that the Romans and Muslims (despite also having clashes) did not end up constantly at odds with each other. How is it that the treaty in which the term "Ummah" was coined to refer to all those communities (not just Islam as people think) was upheld? Was it "Taqiyah"? A term I have explained already but many people think of as a core Islamic value of deception, something Sandy Rios of FOX News has said not too long ago as these American Elections are heating up. Of course not. This was something in Islam, the chapter labelled "Disbelievers" has the final verse (it is very short anyway) saying "To you is your religion and to them is their religion". If that is not a clear show that in Islam there is NOTHING that says that all disbelievers need to be bombed and what not, then I do not know what is.

Now to get to another point about human rights. Do not get me wrong, Islamic counties tend to have pretty horrible track records when it comes to human rights, which is something that goes against Islam. But let's be honest, if an Islamic country sees it then it gets related to Islam right? This is the fault of none other than the Muslim leaders themselves. Not the Imams but the governments. Why is it that European counties open their arms to help asylum seekers but Muslims countries, whose very FAITH is founded on a principle of care and duty to humanity, keep their borders firmly closed. Where are these Islamic principles gone? Tolerance, Care, Love, Community, Help?


A million Muslim soldiers (I believe) died for Great Britain during WWI and WWII. When people say "go back to where you came from" or "go home" I do not understand. I am home. If you cannot acknowledge those Muslims who died out of love for this country and they were just as important as every other soldier in those wars then there is something wrong with you. My religion belongs here just as much as any other religion does. I was born British. My parents were born British. My grandparents were born British, as were my great-grandparents I believe. Why would my religion tell me to deny my British identity, something I am very proud of. When things are taken out of context, whether it be by Muslims (and this does happen too) or not, it just causes nothing but tension and fighting. Of course, according to FOX News and the like, that is what Islam is about. Colin Powell said something about Barack Obama not so long ago. Someone made a comment that Obama was a Muslim and this was a massive talking point. To quote Powell: "He is not a Muslim, he was born Christian. And even if he was a Muslim, so what? Is there something wrong with that?"

That is a respectful comment. By learning about Islam, especially Islam in the 21st Century you'd find that when you look past the internal conflict (which is the fault of Muslims themselves) and put the terrorism done in the name of Islam aside, and look at Islam FREE of all these cultures and you'd see what Islam is meant to be. We need to educate ourselves, all of us. When people say "Shariah Law dictates that women cannot drive cars". But Aisha herself used to drive camels and if I remember correctly she even liked to race camels! Where is that oppression of females coming from? Aisha is a very special lady in Islam, because she was in many ways the most beloved. She was a kind, caring human who also could be funny, competitive and stubborn when she wanted to be. There are even Hadith from her saying that she used to play jokes on the Prophet. How is it that a religion which today seems to be on the forefront of human rights violations 1400 years ago had all this happening? Khadijah was a businesswomen, highly successful one actually and if women were second class people in Islam how could that have even been possible? We need to understand the religion and THEN point the violations to the people twisting the religion, not the religion in itself. I am not a perfect human being, and I am FAR from a perfect Muslim. But I have taken the time to learn. And the more I learn about being a better Muslim, the more I see nothing but being a better British citizen and a better human being.


I'll finish on the subject of science and a little about rights. I am sure most Americans will know these words:

"We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are life, liberty and pursuit of happiness."

For those who may not, that is from the Declaration of Independence. Amazingly, these ideas which we take for granted now were crazy ideas back in 1776. Why? Because it was saying a King or Queen, whilst a King or Queen were still equal in humanity to a commoner or peasant. Now let's go back 1100 years further or so.


"An Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab, nor does a non-Arab have any superiority over an Arab; white has no superiority over black, nor black over white..."

This is a quote from the final sermon of the Prophet Muhammad before he died. This was a golden age of Islam, and for the next few centuries there was a massive push to get all the rules written to make sure Islam never wavered from what it was meant to be, and there was a push for the advancement of science, particularly continuing on from the mighty Greek empire and working alongside the Romans and what came after. A lot of scientific knowledge today stems from knowledge gathered by the Muslims during this period, something, as @Imari pointed out, is often forgotten in the west.

With regards to rights, the last words I quote in the Declaration of Independence are "Life, Liberty and Pursuit of Happiness". This is a change from a quote by John Locke, stating that natural rights include "Life, Liberty and Property". 500 years before those fantastic quotes of which all should be upheld, there was something in Islam known as the 5 Elements.


1) Protection of Life

2) Protection of religious liberty

3) Protection of intellect

4) Protection of Lineage

5) Protection of property


This was a basis of the core parts of Shariah law. All of which actually appear somewhere or another in the Declaration of Independence and indeed within laws in the Western world. There are even rumours that the Magna Carta was drawn up after the crusaders returned from their expeditions reporting that in the Muslim world the leaders were not above the law etc. However I am NOT saying that the reason we enjoy all these wonderful laws here is because of Islam. I am saying that the same foundation of laws that we hold fantastically close to us in the free world were also meant to be, and were for a long time, in the Muslim world. I am only using the comparisons to show more about a proper form of Islam in which things were quite different from a number of things we see in Muslim countries today and VERY different to what seems to be referred to as "the true form of Islam" in regards to ISIS by some people around the globe. Islam not a war mongering religion, nor a religion that does not tolerate others or abuse women. Nor is it a religion that is backwards in rights or against science.

And to end, a quote from myself dating


Example One is of respect:
The Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, was once sitting in the company of his companions. Whilst he was talking he saw a funeral procession approach. He stopped, and stood up quietly as it passed. When the companions saw a tear fall they asked him why. The Prophet replied, "Was he not a human being? Does he not deserve the same respect?"
Respect. Something that should be engrained in every Muslim.

Example Two is of tolerance, respect and conduct:
When the prophet went to the city now known as Madinah there were three major religions there other than the Muslims. They were the Jews, The Christians and the Fire Worshippers. From what we assume today about Islam, we would have thought that the Prophet would have gone in and told them all to become muslim or leave, right? But that was not what happened. Instead the Prophet invited all the people over to first sleep in his company, so that he could talk to people and get to know the community. Thereafter he wrote three treaties, one for each of the religions. Nowhere on those treaties did it say "you must become muslim". As a matter of fact, the first thing on each treaty was, "I will protect you, your families and your property". As well as this the prophet gathered all the Muslims and said to them that they must never harm anyone of those people under the treaty. Never to damage their property or steal from them. If they did, they would never smell the fragrance of paradise. That is how high in regard these people were held. On top of that, the Prophet met with the Monks, Rabbis and Priests and told them categorically that whilst he does not believe what they believe, he recognises them as the religious leaders and will respect them in that capacity.
Tolerance and good conduct at its best.

Example Three: dislike of fighting.
There was an incident in which the Muslims were called to arms. When they reached the battlefield there was nobody to fight. They waited but nobody showed up. During this waiting some of the fighters began to get restless, ready to fight. Did the Prophet urge them to prepare more? No. Instead he chided them and asked them why they were eager to spill the blood of another human. If the enemy failed to show, then nobody would need to be killed.
Fighting? No needed unless necessary.

Example four: ettiqutte of war.
What were the rules that the Prophet said?
You will only fight the armed men.
You will not harm a woman, or a child, or an elderly person.
You will not fight in anger.
Amongst many others.
Even when fighting there we rules. Religious buildings were not to be harmed either.
Ettiquette.

Example five: mercy.
When the Prophet returned to the city of Makkah, did he come in weapons aloft? No. He walked in and retook the city without bloodshed. And he showed mercy on those who mocked him, spat on him, tried at assassinate him etc. Why? Because that was what Islam was. Peace.

Example 6: Sharing and Tolerance
A group of Christians were travelling and they came to Madinah. It was the time for their prayers yet they had nowhere to pray. The Prophet opened up one of the most sacred mosques in Islam and told the Christians that they could pray in peace in the mosque.
Sharing.

Example 7: Compassion
There was a woman who hated the Prophet, and every day she would throw her rubbish at him from a window. This happened a long time but one day this stopped. The Prophet enquired what happened to this lady and found out the she had fallen ill. Did he rejoice? No. Instead he went to visit her and wish her well.

Example 8: stoned.
The prophet heard of some people in a place called Taif. He thought he would go see who they were and if they would like to hear about Islam. These people stoned him until he was bleeding and he had to flee for his life. The angel Gabriel came to the Prophet and told him that if he so wished, he would drop an entire mountain over the town and kill everyone. What did the prophet say? Yes? Of course not. He said no. What does this show us? Even if we have the power to crush an enemy, it should not be used.




Sorry @W3HS for such a long post! I hope you do not fall asleep reading it!
 
DCP
If Authors are copying the bible from the wrong, modern sources, then you have a point, but not those of origin.
I also don't see how you get different interpretations, unless those are completely different.
Here is another problem they had at the time of the Islamic prophets death, so it's hard to accept that this book has never been changed.
Here is the problem though, the bible does have two main conflicting manuscripts, the Textus Receptus and the Vulgate. If you pick up a true King James bible, you get the only English bible that was translated from the Textus Receptus. While the other versions, including the Catholic bible, were translated from the Vulgate.

Revelation 22:18-19
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

The whole point of this post isn't to discuss Islam necessarily, but rather point out a large inconsistency within Christianity that all English bibles are the same when they are not.

For a more in depth look at the history behind the King James bible (which I will touch on, but not necessarily be my main focus), I recommend the book A Visual History of the King James Bible by Donald L. Blake. I own a copy, and it is a fascinating read for the history behind my holy book.

The origin of the Vulgate bible started in the year 380 AD in Alexandria, Egypt. The "scholars" that assembled there tried to piece together a Greek bible based on manuscripts that were edited by them, unlike the Apostle John's effort a few centuries earlier on the Isle of Patmos while in exile to determine which manuscripts were inspired by God. John's efforts later became the basis of the Textus Receptus, the manuscript that formed the backbone of the King James bible.

Then Constantine set up the Roman Catholic Church. He needed a bible, and only two were available for him to use, the Textus Receptus and the Vulgate. He selected the Vulgate. Ironically enough, according to historical documents, Constantine died while being baptized for mocking God.
 
DCP
If Authors are copying the bible from the wrong, modern sources, then you have a point, but not those of origin.

Wrong. Parts of the OT were dropped in modern times, aside from that obvious change some cultures have edited in references, for example, to homosexuality that didn't appear in the 'originals'.


DCP
Here is another problem they had at the time of the Islamic prophets death, so it's hard to accept that this book has never been changed.

I just pointed out to you that it has been changed and that different versions exist. It's not required to accept that it has never been changed because it has.

I'm not gonna say anything because it's Haram for me to join in when talking about the Prophet like this

As I said, no it isn't, in fact defence of the prophet and expression of belief in his word is a requirement, no?

Sadly...

@Smurfybug I wouldnt say anything at this point if i were you.

Just a friendly reminder.

...some people are perhaps advising you incorrectly?
 
I hope you do not fall asleep reading it!
I didn't. It's an interesting read, educational. What you describe here, after the introductions, is what a decent, civilized society is all about (my opinion). But not once do you mention the supernatural (in the end you mention the angel Gabriel, but that was only to show the prophet's reaction). Clearly there is no real need for god to lead a good life, just an agreement among ourselves on how we want to treat each other. A nice culture. I do recognize the usefulness of having a god and the notion of an afterlife though. These serve as the canvas and glue to keep it all together.
 
I didn't. It's an interesting read, educational. What you describe here, after the introductions, is what a decent, civilized society is all about (my opinion). But not once do you mention the supernatural (in the end you mention the angel Gabriel, but that was only to show the prophet's reaction). Clearly there is no real need for god to lead a good life, just an agreement among ourselves on how we want to treat each other. A nice culture. I do recognize the usefulness of having a god and the notion of an afterlife though. These serve as the canvas and glue to keep it all together.

Well thank you. Islam is firmly based on the belief of one God, but it is a common misconception that that belief in itself is the be all and end all of being a Muslim. Rather it is the foundation of being a Muslim. The rest of Islam is based around doing things that would please God, but a very important aspect of this is that Islam focussed on saying that praying 5 times a day, fasting, giving money to the poor etc, whilst being a pillar of faith was not all of faith. Being a civil, educated, tolerant and model human being is also a core part of Islam. This is the fact that is often missed by both Muslims and non Muslims. The idea that everything is the creation of God and therefore needs to be treated with the utmost respect is a sort of moral guide as well, almost going against the aggressive side of human nature. For example, if I were to wrong someone and not ask for a pardon from them, in Islam it says that God will not forgive you if the person you have erred has not. And of course to be a good human you need to understand that if you do something wrong you need to stand up and apologise for the wrong you did. That is part of being a Muslim too.
As for the claims that Muslims want to go through conquest. The Qur'an actually states: "There is no complusion in religion" showing nobody can be forced into religion because one of the core parts of Islam is you should embrace it willingly. And if a person does not, that is not for a Muslim to be an angry bum about. According to Islam everyone will be judged for who they are on the day of judgement, which is why we cannot say as Muslims that we are going to be in heaven and everyone else will go to hell. That is for God to decide and if we start passing judgement we are trying to take the place of God in that way. In that way there is a very spiritual aspect of Islam. But equally important is the physical part of Islam, the part that encourages good manners, kindness, hard work, fulfilment of rights, seeking knowledge etc. That is the part of Islam that is never mentioned sadly in the media. And even worse it is a part that is not shown by some Muslims across the world.

I mean here is an example: there was a community that always fought with the Muslims at the time of Muhammad. Not full on wars, but just minor scuffles, mocking, constant disagreements etc, such as the way of tribal nature was. Anyway, a calamity struck them (I do not know this story well so I cannot remember what happened) and this community lost everything. They went to Madinah and asked the Prophet for help in such a condition where they were barely clothed and had little food left. The Prophet let them stay in Madinah and after a prayer he asked his people to go back to their homes and bring whatever they did not need. After a while the Mosque had two piles, one of clothing and equipment and the other of foodstuff like flour, rice, dates, etc. So much in fact that the Prophet actually had a big smile on his face. Then he called those people who had once constantly fought with the Muslims and said to them that anything they saw and wanted, they were free to take and keep. Now that is what being a Muslim is about, but I am sure you will not see that in the news. But anyway, glad you had a good read, mate!
 
But equally important is the physical part of Islam, the part that encourages good manners, kindness, hard work, fulfilment of rights, seeking knowledge etc. That is the part of Islam that is never mentioned sadly in the media.
Why would it be mentioned? These traits are not unique to Islam. These days you'll find most of those traits in civilizations throughout the entire world. Religion is not required to be a good person, Islam is not required to be a good person.
 
Why would it be mentioned? These traits are not unique to Islam. These days you'll find most of those traits in civilizations throughout the entire world. Religion is not required to be a good person, Islam is not required to be a good person.

By the same token, Islam is not required to be a bad person but Islam related to evil is mentioned quite a lot. I am not saying religion (and therefore Islam) is required to be a good person, some of my friends are Athiests and you couldn't find nicer people anywhere really! But religion is not required to be a bad person either. Terrorism is not a trait of Islam, it is the trait of a bad person, right?
 
@ECGadget, a very well presented write up, yours was, thank you for taking the time and effort.

A conclusion I can make then, is that the radical fundamentalist Muslims intent on the establishment of Sharia throughout the world is around 3'000'000 strong (from global intelligence statistics*) making it a little less than 20% (roughly 18%) of all followers of Islam. These intelligence figures don't give the location of this minority but safe to assume many of them are living in predominantly Islamic countries or under the Sharia already.

That's 1 in 5 followers of the Prophet Muhammad who are against non-believers or our societies in general in some way shape or form and a few of which are actively engaged in a Holy War against whoever they perceive as the enemy of Islam, be it the West, media, critics of Islam or whoever. That's a mighty large proportion, even if the a tiny amount of that 20% act on it.

Can I assume that these people have interpreted the Qur'an in a way that has lead to their radicalisation and violence and that the rest of the world's Muslim population are the Muslims who follow the Qur'an as a way of peace?

Because 20% is a huge amount. And I can only hope that those figures are incorrect, but we have to assume that they are correct until proven otherwise.

I have personally witnessed life in an (unofficial) Islamic part of the world where the Sharia is loosely imposed against the will of government (Kaxgar, Xinjiang). The people there acted very civil towards me because their assumption was that I was of a neighbouring ethnicity and and Muslim, I do look very much like their race of people (Turkic Uyghar). I didn't at all feel threatened carrying out my daily business for the week I spent there there, except once.
My Chinese counterpart, however, within his own nation was vilified and often mildly harassed by the locals for being Han, the same race as the government imposing restrictions on Chinese Muslims. When shopping for groceries I was greeted and he was ignored and snarled at just because he shared race with the state government. He grew up in this region (Xinjiang) and went to school with many Muslims and has never said a bad word about them despite most Han openly disliking the Uyghar minority.

Upon indulging in my culture's pastime I was immediately noticed as an outsider and was confronted. I had been having a few beers in a Chinese owned and run Hostel and had just gone outside the door for a smoke and hadn't even considered leaving my beer on the table. Yes, unknowingly to me I had engaged in breaking local, unofficial law (Sharia). The first few people that spotted me were woman who stopped across the street and began to make phone calls. soon after other passers by had begun to stare at me and shout things I couldn't understand. I am, by my own admission, an asshole sometimes and being drunk I took little notice of these people. Within the time it took me to finish my smoke (a few minutes, beer still in hand) I was mobbed by a group of young men who began ranting and raving at me in a language I didn't know. Luckily the hostel owner was quickly on hand to suppress the issue and explained to me what was happening and escorted me back inside to safety. Being drunk I didn't feel scared at the threat of this mob but I certainly did feel threatened by their numbers and obvious hatred of me for making a simple mistake. One might argue I was ignorant of the culture but remember that I'd lived in this predominantly atheist country for 4 years previous and had never once not been able to drink outside of a private setting.

That's just one experience I had while in Islamic territory. The others we all quite pleasant. I do understand that this scenario is as much linked to territorial disputes and the censorship of religion by the PRC Communist Party, but it was the way in which my friend's race and my cultural habits we used as reasons to get aggravated and cause a commotion which showed evidence for the lack of tolerance within this community. I was also refused a haircut by all but the one Han barber I could find once it was evident I wasn't Muslim and often refused service in restaurants because of the race of my companion.

I had a great time in Kaxgar despite these incidents and I won't hold what a small part of the culture has done as a view on all of it.

It does seem unfortunate that those that claim Islam is peaceful and tolerant are overshadowed by those using Islam as a right to wage war, harbour hate and commit crimes in the name of Allah or Muhammad. If the figures from the global intelligence agencies are to be believed then we're dealing with almost 1 of every 5 Muslims, as mentioned before, that believe their way of life is the only way that can be 'correct' and must be imposed on everyone.

What would the world be like if 1 in 5 of the 840'000'000 (estimated) Atheists decided to act upon a single cause against a particular culture, thought process or way of life? That's like 160'000'000 people all united in their cause to instate a law banning veganism. Things would get very messy unless somebody was able to intervene.

As much as I want to believe that Islam (or any other mass religion) is peaceful and accept the given evidence the fact is that there will always be an element of fundamentalism when people have strong, unshakable convictions. From football hooligans to religions fanatics violence is often the method of choice for conveying a message and getting what they want. This isn't exclusive to Islam, of course, but it does seem that the number of Islamic fundamentalist Imams inciting followers to use violence for their cause and for their gains outnumbers that of other groups who also believe that their God/ world view is the only absolute correct one. As long as there is an element of violence that is prevalent in Islam it will never be considered a religion of peace by some, in the same why that human beings in general cannot be considered peaceful because of of the element of violence that exists within mankind as a race, despite the millions that are peaceful.

*The Global intelligence Agencies I refer to for statistics is unavailable for me to quote at present, but I've read the same statistic from many different sources so I assume it to be correct.

Edit: Thanks to @TenEightyOne for pointing out a crucial flaw in my numbers. It should be 1.8% not 18% that a radical fundamentalists, making the first few paragraphs up there largely inaccurate and irrelevant. If 18% were radicals we'd be looking at around 300 million, not 300'00. My apology.
 
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@ECGadgetA conclusion I can make then, is that the radical fundamentalist Muslims intent on the establishment of Sharia throughout the world is around 3'000'000 strong (from global intelligence statistics*) making it a little less than 20% (roughly 18%) of all followers of Islam. These intelligence figures don't give the location of this minority but safe to assume many of them are living in predominantly Islamic countries or under the Sharia already...and I can only hope that those figures are incorrect, but we have to assume that they are correct until proven otherwise.

That didn't take long.

Your figures are wrong, you'll be please to know :D It's 1.8% providing your 3,000,000 figure is correct, I only checked that there were still 1,600,000,000 Muslims.

You also have to presume that of those 3,000,000 followers of Sharia all are fundamental adherents.
 
That didn't take long.

Your figures are wrong, you'll be please to know :D It's 1.8% providing your 3,000,000 figure is correct, I only checked that there were still 1,600,000,000 Muslims.

You also have to presume that of those 3,000,000 followers of Sharia all are fundamental adherents.

1.8.% that are fundamental radicals? Sorry I'm a bit lost.

Thanks for the correction though. 👍

Edit: Quick search puts Muslim population at 1.57 billion (or 1'600'000'000 as you say), 1.8% would be the world's population then?

Edit2: 1.8% would be the 300'000 which are fundamental radicals, you are correct, not the 18% that I stated. My bad. I've never been great with numbers.
 
Edit2: 1.8% would be the 300'000 which are fundamental radicals, you are correct, not the 18% that I stated. My bad. I've never been great with numbers.

No worries, it was a slip of the decimal point :D

Again though, as I said, if there are 3,000,000 Sharia followers that doesn't automatically mean that you have 3,000,000 fundamentalists in that same group. Perhaps you would remove many children from that group, and perhaps many women?
 
The number 300'000 (of radicalised fundamentalists) wasn't what I had generated through percentages, that is what was stated (second hand to me, admittedly) by global intelligence agencies. I had tried to backtrack and gather the percentages from this figure.
 
The number 300'000 (of radicalised fundamentalists) wasn't what I had generated through percentages, that is what was stated (second hand to me, admittedly) by global intelligence agencies. I had tried to backtrack and gather the percentages from this figure.

To be clear, are you saying 300,000 (three-hundred-thousand) or 3,000,000 (three million)? If it's the former then you're down to 0.18%, if the latter then 1.8% as we discussed.

You need to find a working source for those numbers really.
 
Thank Goodness for that! @W3HS I am glad you read that, took me two hours to write xD
@TenEightyOne I was worried for a second when the 3,000,000 figure came up! lol

Regarding these 1.8%:
I cannot really speak for them because I cannot comprehend where they can come up with their justifications for what they do. Specifically I am talking about ISIS at the moment. The fact that they have been mentioned by leading Scholars across the Muslim world as nothing more than criminals does say something though. If I remember right, a top Iraqi Imam likened them to savage dogs from hell. Pretty harsh but understandable. ISIS not only anger me with the crimes they commit against humanity but also sadden me in the way they claim to be doing this in the name of Islam. I can draw a parallel with parts of Islam during the "dark age" where so called Muslims went to places like Africa and raped the women and children there, and killed in the name of Islamic conquest. I believe that was known as Islamic Imperialism, which was completely against Islamic teachings but DID happen, sadly.
There is a warning in the Qur'an which I should have mentioned in the original post, which when explained means that the Qur'an can be a guide if interpreted correctly (i.e. Generally what 98% of the Muslims do) but will also lead you to evil if you do not. So basically if you pick and choose single verses in the Qur'an (and this is true) you could easily be fooled into doing something against Islam, but if you were to study fully (or at least rely on those who have studied fully) about the Qur'an and Hadith, then you will (hopefully) be alright.
Your experience in China was not really an experience you should have got from Muslims, BUT given the political situation there is understandable. Nevertheless just because something is understandable does not make it right. They (due to human nature perhaps) judged your friend because he was Chinese, which means that they tarnished everyone with the same brush, something that Islam says not to do.
I personally am sorry you were confronted in the way you were, because in the unofficial capacity a Muslim can only implement Shariah law on his/herself. I would say that from my understanding of Islam and from what I have learnt, the correct thing would have been to leave you alone. After all, state law does not prevent the consumption of Alcohol in China (right?) and therefore they had no right to rant and rave at you.
And there are differences in state and Shariah law by the way. Example is the one in the God thread about slavery. The Prophet was a man who supported freeing of slaves and the freedom of man. However, in Arabia slavery was pretty big. Now the Shariah actually has laws pertaining to the treatment of slaves (which I mentioned in the related thread) BUT that does not mean Islam says you should have slaves. As a matter of fact, under the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, slavery is forbidden, which makes it forbidden under state laws around the world. And that Declaration was also signed by Muslims, making it binding within Shariah law too. That is how Shariah law works in the general sense.

 
To be clear, are you saying 300,000 (three-hundred-thousand) or 3,000,000 (three million)? If it's the former then you're down to 0.18%, if the latter then 1.8% as we discussed.

You need to find a working source for those numbers really.

Apparently you're not any good at maths either :sly:

3 million = 0.1875% of 1.6 billion
300,000 = 0.01875% of 1.6 billion
 
What happened to my friend and I is forgettable and I don't think either of us felt negativity towards Muslims just because of that particular situation.

Would it be fair to say that what these radicals are doing in the name of Islam, is not, in fact, Islam at all?

And I'd also like to add that we're all crap at maths.
 
What happened to my friend and I is forgettable and I don't think either of us felt negativity towards Muslims just because of that particular situation.

Would it be fair to say that what these radicals are doing in the name of Islam, is not, in fact, Islam at all?

And I'd also like to add that we're all crap at maths.

I am glad about that, but regardless I do not think it should have happened. And I would say that is fair, yes. That was my whole point for my post, to try and really explain what Islam is and yes it is not a religion that everyone wants to follow and Muslims should be respecting that, but it is far far different to Islam a la FOX News. But at the same time we have to acknowledge that even Islamic countries do some things that are going against the teachings of Islam, for a dozen different reasons that could range from culture to greed to pride to just not knowing any better. And if not against Islam there are certainly treading in murky waters.

And there goes my chances of a job at JLR. Time to hit the maths books again. :P
 
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As much as I want to believe that Islam (or any other mass religion) is peaceful and accept the given evidence the fact is that there will always be an element of fundamentalism when people have strong, unshakable convictions. From football hooligans to religions fanatics violence is often the method of choice for conveying a message and getting what they want. This isn't exclusive to Islam, of course, but it does seem that the number of Islamic fundamentalist Imams inciting followers to use violence for their cause and for their gains outnumbers that of other groups who also believe that their God/ world view is the only absolute correct one. As long as there is an element of violence that is prevalent in Islam it will never be considered a religion of peace by some, in the same why that human beings in general cannot be considered peaceful because of of the element of violence that exists within mankind as a race, despite the millions that are peaceful.

[/USER][/QUOTE]

@W3SH

It should be easy to decide who to follow. Firstly, look at the founders of all religions, and study their existence, and ALL the things they did and said.
You will find that there is only ONE that is not lying dead in the grave.
Only ONE that didn't preach religion and give more laws and rules.
Only ONE that conquered the grave, and essentially overcame this fallen world.
Only ONE that offers life to ANYONE who believes in Him.
Only ONE that judges a persons heart, and not their deeds.
ONE that explains why we have a sinful nature, and why this world is in constant trials and tribulations.

When you find this Person, you will then realize that all the others were just as ordinary sinful men like you and I, who made mistakes, wrong choices and decisions in their lives, like the rest of us.
 
DCP
You will find that there is only ONE that is not lying dead in the grave.

Nope.

Only ONE that didn't preach religion and give more laws and rules.

Nope.

Only ONE that conquered the grave, and essentially overcame this fallen world.

Nope.

Only ONE that offers life to ANYONE who believes in Him.

Nope.

Only ONE that judges a persons heart, and not their deeds.

Very nope.

ONE that explains why we have a sinful nature, and why this world is in constant trials and tribulations.

Totally nope.
 
Any explanation on why just Nope? Because saying it alone is just pointless

Explaining for DCP is just pointless, so I don't waste my time. But if you want any of those in particular explained then feel free to ask.

However, some are so obvious that if you do ask then I'll just assume that you're trolling me or just haven't even bothered to make an actual effort to think about it yourself.

For example, only one founder of a religion that is not dead? Provably false by twenty seconds on Google.
 
Explaining for DCP is just pointless, so I don't waste my time. But if you want any of those in particular explained then feel free to ask.

However, some are so obvious that if you do ask then I'll just assume that you're trolling me or just haven't even bothered to make an actual effort to think about it yourself.

For example, only one founder of a religion that is not dead? Provably false by twenty seconds on Google.
Alrighty, thanks I just wanted to know why :P
 
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