Islam - What's your view on it?

[polysmut]

I wasn't really talking about GTP...
But thanks for explaining tho.

Also throughout the population of the world there are many who don't think that Muslim = terrorist. 👍

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Also throughout the population of the world there are many who don't think that Muslim = terrorist. 👍

The problem is that those who do are the most vocal about it.

 

[polysmut]

The problem is that those who do are the most vocal about it.

Maybe everyone else should shout up a bit more.
I do locally, I'm not the most savvy on the web at finding evidence for things or expressing it as well as some of the others though.

 

[ukfan758]

I'll say my opinion: a peaceful religion unfortunately shadowed at times by a minuscule radical sect that goes against what Islam truly is.

 

[sumbrownkid]

I think it's time for the Muslim world to stop acting like victims in general and start combating this extremism now. I fear we are in danger of losing control of our religion to nutjobs who think violence is always the answer for anyone who disagrees with them. A few weeks ago I heard a girl in Afghanistan was executed along with her family just for being shiite. I mean where is their humanity? In the magazine of an old AK-47?

Another thing that bothers me, how come none of the muslim countries have not openly welcomed any refugee from the terror of ISIS into their lands? How come Saudi Arabia, the so called home of Islam not have followed through with the prophet's dream of humanity? It's really a damn shame and an embarrassment to the Muslim world. Right now, I feel, Muslims are more afraid of being labeled terrorist than doing something to bring Islam back.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I think it's time for the Muslim world to stop acting like victims in general and start combating this extremism now.

What makes you think they aren't?

how come none of the muslim countries have not openly welcomed any refugee from the terror of ISIS into their lands? How come Saudi Arabia, the so called home of Islam not have followed through with the prophet's dream of humanity?

Wrong, I'm afraid. Why did you think that no muslim states had taken refugees?

Perhaps you allowed your good sense to be skewed by the automatic residency permit that 100,000 Syrians have obtained in Saudi?

Right now, I feel, Muslims are more afraid of being labeled terrorist than doing something to bring Islam back.

Given the news sources that you seem to have reviewed it would hardly be surprising to find that muslims feel misrepresented.

 

[SalmanBH]

A little over 3 years and this thread is still active. Did not expect that at the time I posted it.

 

[PeterJB]

That's hardly surprising considering how often the subject matter appears in the news.

 

[Imari]

That's hardly surprising considering how often the subject matter appears in the news.

The joys of having Muslims be the prevailing current moral panic.

 

[Liquid]

The joys of having Muslims be the prevailing current moral panic.

Much like people from the West Indies in the 1960s or the Germans in the 1940s or the Jewish in the 1930s or the Italians in the 1920s or the Irish in the 1840s. Whatever group you fancy from any time period; there is a scapegoat to be found somewhere.

Wash, rinse, repeat.

 

[1241Penguin]

And to think, some people today actually think that they're on higher moral grounds than the "racists" of the past. Go figure.

 

[DK]

On a semi-related note, these last few posts are reminding me of a Grauniad video a friend shared on Facebook about the rise of right-wing populists, and their targeting of foreigners, the LGBT community and Muslims instead of going after the financial institutions that caused the Credit Crunch.

 

[novcze]

And to think, some people today actually think that they're on higher moral grounds than the "racists" of the past. Go figure.

Do you want to imply that people who have their doubts about islam (ideology) are somehow racist? Maybe you should look up definition of racism.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Maybe you should look up the definition of "quibbling". The letter may be wrong, but the spirit remains true; perhaps this is what @1241Penguin intended to say:

And to think, some people today actually think that they're on higher moral grounds than the "bigots" of the past. Go figure.

 

[novcze]

Maybe you should look up the definition of "quibbling". The letter may be wrong, but the spirit remains true; perhaps this is what @1241Penguin intended to say:

Sorry, I'm not well versed in telepathy.

Do you want to imply that people who have their doubts about islam (ideology) are somehow bigots? Maybe you should look up definition of bigotry.

Labeling everyone who is not enthusiastic about islam as bigots is the same as labeling all muslims terrorists.

 

[FoRiZon]

Sorry, I'm not well versed in telepathy.

Do you want to imply that people who have their doubts about islam (ideology) are somehow bigots? Maybe you should look up definition of bigotry.

Labeling everyone who is not enthusiastic about islam as bigots is the same as labeling all muslims terrorists.

To be fair, i have no single disturbance if anyone is questioning Islam as religion, just like when a Muslim debating Christianity, Atheists debating religion et cetera. Their religion (or none) is theirs and ours is ours. Its their own part of identity and we must accept it.

What i dont want though is the insult or prejudice to Muslims as the society. They are people with rights, needs, and live pretty much the same as any other people arround the world. The only difference is the religious practices. A vocal minority that is an extremists does not constitute all as a whole, just like any other societies ever.

 

[1241Penguin]

Sorry, I'm not well versed in telepathy.

Do you want to imply that people who have their doubts about islam (ideology) are somehow bigots? Maybe you should look up definition of bigotry.

Labeling everyone who is not enthusiastic about islam as bigots is the same as labeling all muslims terrorists.

No.

I'm pointing out the hypocrisy in people who think racism against blacks in the past was wrong, or that discrimination against women in the past was wrong, yet they are quick to mock any notion that Islam is a "religion of peace" and they wish for refugees to be deported immediately because they are "ticking time-bombs." Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's double standards if I've ever seen it.

 

[novcze]

No.

I'm pointing out the hypocrisy in people who think racism against blacks in the past was wrong, or that discrimination against women in the past was wrong, yet they are quick to mock any notion that Islam is a "religion of peace" and they wish for refugees to be deported immediately because they are "ticking time-bombs." Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's double standards if I've ever seen it.

Fair enough.

I would say that islam is a religion and leave it at that. And I have my own objections to how the EU is handling current refugee situation. And if there are any security concerns, connected to the topic of islam, I blame politicians for it, they simply don't do enough in present or in past to root out islam fundamentalism from European soil.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

they simply don't do enough in present or in past to root out islam fundamentalism from European soil.

It's easy to criticise them for not doing enough, but what more can they be doing?

 

[Dotini]

It's easy to criticise them for not doing enough, but what more can they be doing?

It's easy to see the heart of the problem is in part Saudi Arabia and their long embrace of Wahhabism, and in part our own acquiescence to this in view of our need for Saudi Arabia's vast oil reserves and their importance to our global economy, technologies and energy-dependent way of life.

We have made a Faustian pact, a bargain with the darker sides of our own materially corrupted souls. We chaff resentfully against the need to keep our bargain.

So you are right - our politicians are helpless in view of the decisions put in place by the culture as a whole. There is no quick fix.

 

[novcze]

It's easy to criticise them for not doing enough, but what more can they be doing?

Like EU wide ban of salafism, wahhabism, signs of fundamentalism like burka, compulsory language and cultural courses with the test at the end, pre-emptive actions based on the work of intelligence agencies, higher police presence in known problematic muslim zones and strict law enforcement, etc. ... key is to have strategy for whole EU.

 

[Imari]

Like EU wide ban of salafism, wahhabism...

So no freedom of religion. Check.

signs of fundamentalism like burka

No freedom to wear the clothes you want either. Check.

compulsory language and cultural courses with the test at the end...

Which language? Which culture? What about people who are specifically in the country for their skills with external cultures?

If that had applied to me, I'd never have been able to spend four years teaching English in Japan.

pre-emptive actions based on the work of intelligence agencies

Which they already do. That's what intelligence agencies are for. Do you think that they're sitting around with their thumbs up their butts, using their intelligence so that they can get good seats when the bombs go off?

higher police presence in known problematic muslim zones and strict law enforcement

The police already presumably deploy more heavily in known problematic areas. Adding the word "muslim" to that doesn't really change anything. The police go where crimes are committed.

Unless you somehow think that Muslims should be treated differently under the law than anyone else, in which case I don't know what to say.

...key is to have strategy for whole EU.

It seems like your strategy is "don't be a Muslim".

 

[novcze]

It's easy to see the heart of the problem is in part Saudi Arabia and their long embrace of Wahhabism, and in part our own acquiescence to this in view of our need for Saudi Arabia's vast oil reserves and their importance to our global economy, technologies and energy-dependent way of life.

That's why I'm huge fan of hydrogen fuel cells or any technology that will make as more independent on oil.

 

[novcze]

So no freedom of religion. Check.

No freedom to wear the clothes you want either. Check.

Tell me better way how to identify and stop islam fundamentalism ... other than wait and count losses.

Which language? Which culture? What about people who are specifically in the country for their skills with external cultures?

If that had applied to me, I'd never have been able to spend four years teaching English in Japan.

And I'm sure you had work visa or something similar. I'm talking about immigration and people who apply for citizenship.

Which they already do. That's what intelligence agencies are for.

on smaller scale than needed

The police already presumably deploy more heavily in known problematic areas. Adding the word "muslim" to that doesn't really change anything.

presumably

It seems like your strategy is "don't be a Muslim".

typical bleeding heart reaction

 

[Imari]

Tell me better way how to identify and stop islam fundamentalism ... other than wait and count losses.

You don't stop fundamentalism, because fundamentalism isn't a crime.

You stop people from committing crimes, the same way that people have been prevented from committing crimes for centuries.

And I'm sure you had work visa or something similar. I'm talking about immigration and people who apply for citizenship.

I did.

However, I know at least one guy who got a Japanese girl knocked up (which was hilarious, because he'd been in Japan for all of three weeks) and ended up immigrating. When he did immigrate, he totally wouldn't have been able to pass any of your tests.

on smaller scale than needed

I suppose you would know. You apparently have more intelligence than the intelligence agencies.

presumably

Presumably? Presumably what?

typical bleeding heart reaction

Ah, abuse. If you can't make a cogent argument, slap a nasty label on it.

I don't like seeing people being victimised for living their lives. I don't like seeing the many being stomped on for the actions of the few. If that's a bleeding heart to you, then so be it. I like to think of it as basic human empathy.

You're apparently fine with it as long as you don't belong to the many or the few. I find it amusing that Europe is overwhelmingly Christian, yet there's the same minority of hardline Christians who don't give a 🤬 about Muslims as people. Just like there's a minority of hardline Muslims who don't give a 🤬 about Christians.

There's ISIS and friends, and then there's Muslims who watch ISIS can think "I wouldn't go that far that myself, but I'm glad that somebody is finally cleaning up this place and getting rid of all the Christians and other heathens".

Seems to me like you're the Euro version of those people. You don't want the Muslims dead (I assume), but you'd just as soon they got the hell away from you. You have no interest in finding out that actually most Muslims are just people, who mostly share a lot of beliefs with Christians and generally get on with their lives. You'd see them persecuted despite the fact that they're a tiny minority in Europe, and that fundamentalists are an even tinier minority inside that.

Like many, you're responding vehemently to the moral panic without actually realising that you're probably in more danger from pretty much anything else than you are from fundamentalist immigrants. I doubt you even know what proportion of Muslim immigrants identify as fundamentalist, what proportion of those fundamentalists are actually willing to use violence to enact their beliefs, or what the relative crime rate among those fundamentalists is.

 

[Joel]

I'm a foreigner living in Europe, getting government money, living in subsidized housing, taking subsidized classes, getting food subsidies, health care subsidies, and subsidized discounts on transit and travel. I don't speak the local language, I'm not a Christian, I don't have family here, and I don't have a job. I must be here to erode Europe's culture!

 

[Dennisch]

I'm living in Europe, getting government money, living in subsidized housing, taking subsidized classes, getting food subsidies, health care subsidies, and subsidized discounts on transit and travel. I don't speak the local language, I'm not a Christian, I don't have family here, and I don't have a job. I must be here to erode Europe's culture!

Damn immigrant. Gtfo.

 

[Joel]

Damn immigrant. Gtfo.

Who knows, maybe I'll fall in love with a local and stay?

 

[Dennisch]

Who knows, maybe I'll fall in love with a local and stay?

I'll report your fake marriage to Geert.

 

[novcze]

You don't stop fundamentalism, because fundamentalism isn't a crime.
You stop people from committing crimes, the same way that people have been prevented from committing crimes for centuries.

Got it, islamic fundamentalism isn't problem until they start cutting heads off or shooting people, it's also fine when they radicalize young muslims and government should totally not give a damn about it. Counting losses.

I did.

However, I know at least one guy who got a Japanese girl knocked up (which was hilarious, because he'd been in Japan for all of three weeks) and ended up immigrating. When he did immigrate, he totally wouldn't have been able to pass any of your tests.

And I'm sure he will have common decency to learn the language, because it's the key to integration into society. Or isn't?

I suppose you would know. You apparently have more intelligence than the intelligence agencies.

So far it was mostly action - reaction thing.

Presumably? Presumably what?

The police already presumably deploy more heavily in known problematic areas. Or maybe not since it's dangerous.






Now interesting part ...

Ah, abuse. If you can't make a cogent argument, slap a nasty label on it.

like racist or bigot

I don't like seeing people being victimised for living their lives. I don't like seeing the many being stomped on for the actions of the few.

And who exactly is doing it, I thougth we are talking about radical islam, encouraging fundamentalism is not a way forward. Or is it?

If that's a bleeding heart to you, then so be it. I like to think of it as basic human empathy.

No, it's bleeding heart if someone jumps to conclusion immediately as someone mention a minorities.

You're apparently fine with it as long as you don't belong to the many or the few. I find it amusing that Europe is overwhelmingly Christian, yet there's the same minority of hardline Christians who don't give a 🤬 about Muslims as people. Just like there's a minority of hardline Muslims who don't give a 🤬 about Christians.

There's ISIS and friends, and then there's Muslims who watch ISIS can think "I wouldn't go that far that myself, but I'm glad that somebody is finally cleaning up this place and getting rid of all the Christians and other heathens".

Seems to me like you're the Euro version of those people. You don't want the Muslims dead (I assume), but you'd just as soon they got the hell away from you. You have no interest in finding out that actually most Muslims are just people, who mostly share a lot of beliefs with Christians and generally get on with their lives. You'd see them persecuted despite the fact that they're a tiny minority in Europe, and that fundamentalists are an even tinier minority inside that.

again? ... bleeding heart

(btw. is this really abuse phrase in English language? I feel more abused by his assumptions ...)

Like many, you're responding vehemently to the moral panic without actually realising that you're probably in more danger from pretty much anything else than you are from fundamentalist immigrants. I doubt you even know what proportion of Muslim immigrants identify as fundamentalist, what proportion of those fundamentalists are actually willing to use violence to enact their beliefs, or what the relative crime rate among those fundamentalists is.

I don't have any moral panic but I'm interested in those numbers, do you have a link?