Islam - What's your view on it?

[Scaff]

Excellent - common ground! I don't know why this board can be so contentious.

That mainly occurs when people engage in bad faith arguments, gish-gallop, etc.

If you don't fancy that, surely you can see why I'm mocking Islam now,

I thought we too fearful to do so?

and why it is so dangerous to censor ourselves out of fear.

I don't, but I also don't see the merit in doing so randomly.

How many things in the West mock religious founders? I showed you an opera with a lesbian Jesus having sex, Buddha snorting coke, and there's a whole South Park episode on how dumb Joseph Smith's early followers/origin story were/was....but those same creators can't even broadcast a picture of Muhammad anymore!!

Once again yes they can, that they chose not to is utterly different, and you still don't get the difference between free and compelled speech.

Wake up! Films are only one source of media - what does it mean if we never offend the founder of the world's 2nd biggest religion? How does our culture and different religions evolve?

Correct, as to demonstrate the sand your argument is built on you only need to look on YouTube, tons of videos of people doing exactly what you claim they can't, ditto a Google search for Images of Mohammed, Getty Images (hardly a fringe organisatio) has thousands.

Here's just four

Separate question: Do you think only agnostics and atheists can criticise religions?

No.

Compare: The trajectory of mocking Jesus from Life of Brian to 2024 to the trajectory of mocking Muhammad from day dot to 2024.

Nope as it's operating across tow time periods

I've got 2 questions:

Would you consider any of my posts "Islamophobic"?
Do you consider these views centrist, centre-right or right wing?

Yes and based on your sources and reading material, right-wing politically (and at time vering towards the fridges).

That was written in 1988. Has it got better or worse for criticising/mocking "the prophet"?

Why for you does that have to be the start and end of critique? It seems oddly focused on one subject, and potentially designed simply to offend rather than get the people you want onboard to modernise?

Take 'Five Lions' released in 2010 (so given the absence in general of films that focus on religion it's very recent- it's a niche area), it managed to critique the issues with Islamists extremely well, yet only raised objections from the fringe nutters, oh and Dogma was exactly the same in that regard. If you think Dogma critiques Jesus then you haven't seen it (I own both and have seen both numerous times).

 

[HenrySwanson]

Carry on!

If my posts are Islamophobic, then I've likely broken the AUP and could have broken UK hate laws. Enjoy utopia! Praise the prophet!

 

[Scaff]

Carry on!

If my posts are Islamophobic, then I've likely broken the AUP and could have broken UK hate laws. Enjoy utopia! Praise the prophet!

Have some of your posts shown a fear of Islam? Yes.

Now sit down, behave like a grown up and have a good faith discussion, one absent of your piss poor gotcha questions.

 

[Famine]

Christianity famously also used to be like this. In most places in the world, but not all, you can now fairly safely make comments about Christianity for no reason other than that they're funny. In some places you'll absolutely get the snot kicked out of you, but mostly the worst that will happen is you get glared at or told to **** off.

 

[HenrySwanson]

In the spirit of Don't California my Texas:

Don't Alabama my Western World.

 

[Scaff]

In the spirit of Don't California my Texas:

Don't Alabama my Western World.

And back to memes in place of discussion.

Honestly, if anything is going to see you run into AUP problems, it's the fact you keep doing this.

 

[MatskiMonk]

That was written in 1988. Has it got better or worse for criticising/mocking "the prophet"?

Better, but that's mostly because of technology and social media. YouTube didn't exist in 1988, so the chances of me being able to watch a video like this on a whim, were zero...

Spoiler: May offend

Simple yes or no. According to you, are the points I'm making "Islamophobic"?

Yes

It's very relevant as, depending on the definition agreed upon by our government, I could be subject to hate crime proceedings.

Until the relevant acts are updated, you don't know what the impact of this will be. Again, I would rather religion was not a protected characteristic at all, and I suspect seeking to clarify what counts as Islamophobia will probably only end up confusing things even more.

Are you seriously and with a straight face telling me you hold Mormonism in as much contempt as the others? Zoroastrianism? Bahai faith?

Yes. Religion is simply deception. The acts of free will committed by individuals possibly under the influence of such deception should be judged separately, be they good or bad.

 

[Pupik]

Was gonna say, I-10 though Mobile was probably their safest bet but that stop at a no-name fast station wasn't a great idea. 🤣

 

[HenrySwanson]

Better

Anything you say, Big Brother.

Spoiler: May offend

Tbf you did put up a good defence. Not quite good enough, but admirable.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Anything you say, Big Brother.

I've said it before....

Most people have the ability to spread their opinions further and wider than ever before in human history by a possibly exponential factor. The notion that we're less able to express opinions these days is ridiculous.

Perhaps you don't remember before the internet era very well, but I absolutely stand by this. You're posting in a thread that's had 243,000 views... rewind to 1988, how easy do you think it was to get your opinion seen 243,000 times? As a hint, it was harder than typing it and clicking one button.

 

[Famine]

I'm ... not sure you grasp that this is the opposite of what you've been saying.

 

[HenrySwanson]

I'm ... not sure you grasp that this is the opposite of what you've been saying.

It's precisely what I've been saying.

I'm fighting for us (the secular West) not to become like Alabama.

Alabama is close to how we currently treat Islam here. It serves as a reminder of what happens when a religion dictates how a society behaves. The causes of the Alabama encounter may definitely be religious (i.e. because of Christianity) or offence at generally being mocked.

My point is, that Islam separates the ummah from the others and sets rules that must be obeyed, such as death if you leave and no blasphemous things like pictures of "the prophet". You may get similar things in other religions, particularly the Abrahamic ones (Old Testament). Still, the barrier to the reformation of Islam is there are no real mitigating factors - e.g. Christ in Christianity or the evolution of laws in Judaism - as what Muhammad did was perfect and must be followed. The last time it came close to reformation Wahhabism and Salafism outdid it. Shia Islam appears to have become dominated by this:

The Shift from Arab Nationalism to Iran's Rising Influence

The Middle East’s shift from Pan-Arabism to Pan-Islamism marked a major ideological change, driven by the failure of secular Arab unity. Iran, seizing on this disillusionment, emerged as a leader of Islamic unity, reshaping regional politics and taking a pivotal role in the Palestinian cause...

www.mandatebrief.com

And it may yet entice more Sunnis.

You'll notice the guy who gave the rousing defence of Islam has noped out like the Christians in the "Do you believe in God?" thread when challenged.

The whole point is we should be fighting to keep our secular traditions, which happened to derive from being initially Christian nations (although some here are saying the UK is still a Christian country). Mock every religion equally, right now, before it's too late as Hitch prophesied.

I don't want to live in a version of Alabama in the coming few years.

Imagine if, because of that display of violence, networks in America refused to air things critical of NASCAR. It would suck!

I've said it before....



Perhaps you don't remember before the internet era very well, but I absolutely stand by this. You're posting in a thread that's had 243,000 views... rewind to 1988, how easy do you think it was to get your opinion seen 243,000 times? As a hint, it was harder than typing it and clicking one button.

You have over 10 pages of posts in the "Do you believe in God?" thread. Why did you censor yourself here?

 

[Famine]

It's precisely what I've been saying.

You've been pointing the finger at Islam for its unique characteristics violent response to perceived offence against the religion, but a video showing Bible Belt Christians being super-offended to the point of violence at stuff that isn't even about their religion (although they kinda think the gay thing is) somehow is exactly what you've been saying...

 

[Jump_Ace]

My thoughts on Islam? The same with all religions; DGAF. I'd argue religion is responsible for more bloodshed than anything else and fueled by people's idiotic thirst for validation. No thanks.


Jerome

 

[HenrySwanson]

You've been pointing the finger at Islam for its unique characteristics violent response to perceived offence against the religion, but a video showing Bible Belt Christians being super-offended to the point of violence at stuff that isn't even about their religion (although they kinda think the gay thing is) somehow is exactly what you've been saying...

Yes, please see the rest of my post.

EDIT: It's a defence of secularism. I don't know if Islam can be compatible with secularism. I found a list of officially secular Muslim countries here:

Understanding Sharia: The Intersection of Islam and the Law

Sharia guides the personal religious practices of Muslims worldwide, but whether it should influence modern legal systems remains a subject of intense debate.

www.cfr.org

 

[Famine]

Yes, please see the rest of my post.

I've read all of them, even the ones that said nothing, linked out to other people's opinions, or expressed the vaguest of vague blurs of a thought.

Contemporary Christians being violent in the face of offence denies the concept that Islam is unique in doing the same.

 

[HenrySwanson]

Contemporary Christians being violent in the face of offence denies the concept that Islam is unique in doing the same.

I never argued that contemporary Christians can't be violent. Anyone can be violent. The fact that they are disproves nothing about the rest of this post.

 

[Famine]

I never argued that contemporary Christians can't be violent. Anyone can be violent. The fact that they are disproves nothing about the rest of this post.

And yet, this post.

 

[HenrySwanson]

And yet, this post.

I don't follow. Did you think I was not defending secularism all this time? Or defending Christianity?

 

[Famine]

I don't follow. Did you think I was not defending secularism all this time? Or defending Christianity?

Oh I just thought we were linking back to previous posts that have already been acknowledged, for some reason.

 

[HenrySwanson]

Oh I just thought we were linking back to previous posts that have already been acknowledged, for some reason.

Sorry I'm not understanding. I know I can't hold a candle to Hitchens but hoped that I had at least got the central point across.

 

[Famine]

Sorry I'm not understanding.

Yes, of course you aren't.

I made a post.
You responded to that post.
I responded to that response.
You replied and asked me to look at the first response you made again.
I pointed out I've read all your posts.
You linked back to the first response again that I already said I'd read, for some reason.
I linked back to my original post on the assumption we were just irrelevantly linking back to old, already acknowledged posts.
You feigned ignorance. Twice.

It's a weird approach, but not exactly your worst.

 

[Strittan]

I don't follow. Did you think I was not defending secularism all this time? Or defending Christianity?

Well to me it seems like you think islam gets a free pass compared to other religions, and you also come across as someone who indeed thinks islam is worse than other religions.

 

[HenrySwanson]

Yes, of course you aren't.

I made a post.
You responded to that post.
I responded to that response.
You replied and asked me to look at the first response you made again.

Because the answer is in that response.

It's not "feigning ignorance" - this part:

You've been pointing the finger at Islam for its unique characteristics violent response to perceived offence against the religion,

is a problem unique to the religion globally in 2024, including in the most secular countries.

Once many people all around the world are being stabbed/killed/assaulted for insulting any other religion x, then I will concede it's not.
(But the Hindu nationalists!!)
Yes they exist, but we don't have a problem with them or Hindus integrating in secular countries.

It is entirely plausible somewhere like America could regress and go back to interpreting the OT literally, ignore Jesus's teachings, and go medieval on blasphemers.

This should be fought.

but a video showing Bible Belt Christians being super-offended to the point of violence at stuff that isn't even about their religion (although they kinda think the gay thing is) somehow is exactly what you've been saying...

This part doesn't disprove my point, for the reasons above.

Well to me it seems like you think islam gets a free pass compared to other religions, and you also come across as someone who indeed thinks islam is worse than other religions.

I know, that's just like....so totally

Preacher wins payout after arrest for damaging her own Qur’an

Christian evangelist Hatun Tash was arrested for criminal damage after her copy of the Qur'an was stolen by a Muslim at Speakers' Corner.

christianconcern.com

irrational

Why won’t the police leave street preachers alone?

British police are constantly arresting Christians for expressing their beliefs in public.

www.spiked-online.com

right?

‘Two-tier policing’: Pastor arrested and held in police cell for 13 hours after commenting on Islam and affirming sex is binary while street preaching

A Christian pastor was arrested after commenting on Islam and affirming that sex is binary while street preaching outside Bristol University.

adfinternational.org

Oh, you're in Sweden

Tell me, do you think my posts mean I should be investigated for a hate crime?

Tory councillor arrested for ‘hate crime’ after sharing video criticising police

Anthony Stevens had retweeted a video showing police arrest of a Christian street preacher

www.telegraph.co.uk

(But HenrySwanson, don't you know that The Telegraph is a bad paper and you're showing your bias by linking to it even though the story contained within it is verifiably true?! And, and....all those other links are from biased no, no sources??)

This is so much fun!

 

[Strittan]

Oh, you're in Sweden

Yes. Not sure why that’s amusing to you, but ok.

Tell me, do you think my posts mean I should be investigated for a hate crime?

What? No. Why would I?

 

[HenrySwanson]

Yes. Not sure why that’s amusing to you, but ok.

What? No. Why would I?

Apologies, I thought you were saying I was "Islamophobic". It's hard to keep track which people think I am that.

Yes, I do believe Islam is worse in some areas and better in others (people ignore when I said there can be benefits). Same with every other religion. Seeing them all as equally bad seems deluded to me. Wake me up when extremist Mormons are feeding the flesh of infants to their unwitting starving slaves (a recent story about ISIS extremists and Yazidis).

(But the LRA HenrySwanson!)

Firstly, I said Mormon.
Secondly, read this:

Lord's Resistance Army - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Then have at least some rudimentary knowledge on ISIS and come to your own conclusions.

The laughing about Sweden was because of their response to an influx of people with a different culture.

The reason I'm arguing with myself in parenthesis is because these arguments have been used ad infinitum and the world has moved on - it just saves time. Break down the opposing argument:

1. All religions are the same! (I don't think they believe that seeing as one of them is putting up an offence warning when he shows a tame picture of "the prophet")
2. I'm Islamophobic. (Great)
3. I'm right-wing. (If I'm that, who makes up the centre/centre-right?)

EDIT:



You can see, it's really ingrained in the Abrahamic faiths (us vs them mentality)

The end of this video is what we should be doing (or at least saying: you can believe that "Jesus is lord", but it has no bearing on a pregnant person's right to choose. With Harris doing that a lot of idiots are going to spin it that if you believe "Jesus is lord" you shouldn't be coming to her rallies/voting for her):

 

[Dave A]

My thoughts on Islam? The same with all religions; DGAF. I'd argue religion is responsible for more bloodshed than anything else and fueled by people's idiotic thirst for validation. No thanks.


Jerome

I'll don't disagree with this, but I also think that many religions, not all, have widely been used as an excuse for bloodshed. I think humans by our nature have a tribal instinct and are attracted to power. How that manifests itself varies massively, but in my opinion, we will always find ways to divide ourselves and when those divisions grow large enough it greatly increases the chances that it will lead to violence.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Why did you censor yourself here?

I would argue that it's not censored... I still posted it, it's still there.

But, it just seemed to be the sensible thing to do...


... in order to trigger the easily offended.

 

[HenrySwanson]

I would argue that it's not censored... I still posted it, it's still there.

But, it just seemed to be the sensible thing to do...


... in order to trigger the easily offended.

And who are the easily offended?

I'll don't disagree with this, but I also think that many religions, not all, have widely been used as an excuse for bloodshed. I think humans by our nature have a tribal instinct and are attracted to power. How that manifests itself varies massively, but in my opinion, we will always find ways to divide ourselves and when those divisions grow large enough it greatly increases the chances that it will lead to violence.

I'd agree broadly here, although it is sometimes more than an excuse - it is a prescription. See Yoav Gallant's quoting of scripture once Sinwar was killed (which can equally be used by Christians - I believe it was from Leviticus) or:

Surah Al-Baqarah - 216 - Quran.com

Fighting has been made obligatory upon you ˹believers˺, though you dislike it. Perhaps you dislike something which is good for you and like something ...

quran.com

A question: do you consider all ideologies equally good/bad/harmful/harmless?

 

[Famine]

Because the answer is in that response.

... which I already read, and told you I already read. Your linking back to it was either totally irrelevant or you think I'm lying or stupid.

And then you twice claimed to have no idea (once after a direct answer covering it) why I subsequently linked you back to my previous post.

It's not "feigning ignorance"