Israelis board aid ship

[Famine]

What sanctions? Why?

 

[Danoff]

I know that I may sound not sympathetic at all and quite screwed in the head but seriously, wouldn't it be better if Israel just go sanctions and get the consequences that come with it?

No.

Israel is the easiest target for religious fundamentalists who will eventually get around to wanting to kill you too. You want Israel to fight this fight.

 

[NissanSkylineN1]

What sanctions? Why?

Sanctions for their illegal settlements and war crimes.

 

[Famine]

Sanctions for their illegal settlements and war crimes.

Where have they illegally settled? During which war did they commit what crimes?

 

[NissanSkylineN1]

Where have they illegally settled? During which war did they commit what crimes?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/10/14/world/main5385108.shtml

 

[Famine]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/10/14/world/main5385108.shtml

So you've given me two links to show they've built settlements on land they captured 40 years ago and committed "war crimes" in 2008... during which war was that?

You need to do better than that.

 

[NissanSkylineN1]

The settlements that they are building on Palestinian land is illegal under international law. And also in the attack on Gaza last year, White Sulphur was used and also innocent civilians were killed.

 

[Famine]

The settlements that they are building on Palestinian land is illegal under international law.

The land is Israeli. That's. The. Point.

And also in the attack on Gaza last year, White Sulphur was used and also innocent civilians were killed.

As I pointed out to you on a previous page - clearly ignored - white phosphorus. White sulphur doesn't exist. And you cannot commit war crimes if you are not involved in a war. The clue is in the name. WAR crimes.

So they're building houses on Israeli land, captured 40 years ago, and not committing war crimes. I ask again, what sanctions and why?

 

[Omnis]

No.

Israel is the easiest target for religious fundamentalists who will eventually get around to wanting to kill you too. You want Israel to fight this fight.

So I'm a zionist too now?

 

[LizMcQueen]

You make it sound like the Navy fired on the ship or the soldiers opened fire as soon as they landed, but considering that other ships involved were boarded and taken to Tel Aviv without incident tells me that the actions of the passengers on this ship were designed to create a provocation.

I said "stupid" referring how soldiers approached the ship, obviously jump from an helicopter to fall on a boat full of people waiting to hit you, it's not the smartest thing.

 

[NissanSkylineN1]

How about receiving sanctions for what they have just done (raiding the aid ships)?

 

[Famine]

How about receiving sanctions for what they have just done (raiding the aid ships)?

Have you not been reading the thread at all?

They boarded ONE ship, after being told they'd have to force it to port (5 other ships complied), were attacked on board and shot at, retaliated and, when in port, found weapons on board it - including molotov cocktails (not commonly found as part of aid shipments). The people on board the ship included Hamas activists. This ship was trying to run the blockade, on purpose and it bit them in the ass.

So what sanctions and why?

 

[Public'sTwin]

How about receiving sanctions for what they have just done (raiding the aid ships)?

Israel will not be receiving any sanctions; stopping a boat, and killing 9 "activists" is hardly enough of a diplomatic ruffle to cause anything as sweeping and affecting as economic/trade sanctions which affect a the whole country.

 

[NissanSkylineN1]

Well Israel HAS stolen land from the Palestinians and turned them into ghettos.. and Israel HAS been attacking neighboring countries (Lebanon and Palestine). And because of the land problems, Palestinians have been cut off of many hospitals, education and food.
You might also want to read this:
http://www.counterpunch.org/roberts09012009.html
(Yes I know another link.....but seriously)
Also Famine, you are quite Pro-Israeli aren't you?

 

[Public'sTwin]

Well Israel HAS stolen land from the Palestinians and turned them into ghettos.. and Israel HAS been attacking neighboring countries (Lebanon and Palestine). And because of the land problems, Palestinians have been cut off of many hospitals, education and food.
You might also want to read this:
http://www.counterpunch.org/roberts09012009.html
(Yes I know another link.....but seriously)
Also Famine, you are quite Pro-Israeli aren't you?

That article provides no sources or information to back up his claims. And I can't believe you'd quote an ex-Reagan-era official who plugs his own book at the end of the article.

 

[Famine]

Well Israel HAS stolen land from the Palestinians and turned them into ghettos..

What land? When?

Doesn't sound a very wise use of land, to steal it and make ghettoes. Surely they'd steal it to make extra places for their citizens to live?

and Israel HAS been attacking neighboring countries (Lebanon and Palestine).

Uh-huh. Not seeing the war crimes and illegal settlements here.

And because of the land problems, Palestinians have been cut off of many hospitals, education and food.

The land you say they've stolen. Remind me, don't you live in a part of the world stolen from native peoples?

Also Famine, you are quite Pro-Israeli aren't you?

Not even slightly. I even pointed out, during my post refuting your notions of how Israel came to exist, that Britain wouldn't agree to the creation of Israel as it was unsatisfactory to both sides and suffered terrorist-style attacks on their sites in the Mandate by the Jews.

However, you are very staunchly "anti-Zionist", as you said in this thread and refuse to even consider the possibility that Israel ever carries out acts that aren't wholly wrong, muddling the facts in order to do so. Read through the thread with an objective hat on, rather than a biased "anti-Zionist" viewpoint.

 

[LizMcQueen]

you cannot commit war crimes if you are not involved in a war. The clue is in the name. WAR crimes.

When a country attacks another country without being at war, I don't know and I just wonder, state terrorism?

 

[Public'sTwin]

When a country attacks another country without being at war, I don't know and I just wonder, state terrorism?

They 'attacked' people on boats, not a country.

Edit: let me try this:

They 'attacked' people on boats, not a country.

(As the real Famine notes below, they are not at war. This is my point, and the reason Israel continues to - apparently - get away with everything.)

 

[Famine]

When a country attacks another country without being at war, I don't know and I just wonder, state terrorism?

Possibly. Maybe. The point was that they can't be cited for war crimes when not at war. Even Saddam Hussein was merely tried for crimes against humanity, not war crimes.

Don't mistake me - as NissanSkylineN1 just did - for a supporter of Israel. I ascribe to Touring Mars' idea that, on most occasions, both sides are in the wrong in this conflict.

 

[LizMcQueen]

When a country attacks another country without being at war, I don't know and I just wonder, state terrorism?

They 'attacked' people on boats, not a country.

Edit: let me try this:

They 'attacked' people on boats, not a country.

I asked in general, not in this case.
By the way I'm not anti-Israel nor pro-Israel.

 

[Danoff]

So I'm a zionist too now?

Close enough.

 

[senamic]

The blockade is legitimate, and the people who attempted to defy it proved only that Israel is serious when they claim they're going to do something.

Hmmmmmmmmm. Out of curiosity, how is multiple breaches of the Geneva Conventions, specifically with respect to protected persons at all legitimate?

 

[Danoff]

Hmmmmmmmmm. Out of curiosity, how is multiple breaches of the Geneva Conventions, specifically with respect to protected persons at all legitimate?

They get to control imports to their country. It's called sovereignty.

 

[senamic]

They get to control imports to their country. It's called sovereignty.

Hmmm they enact collective punishment on civilians, notably those classified as protected persons. It's called a breach of Article 33 of the Fourth Geneva Convention. To quote:

Article 33. No protected person may be punished for an offense he or she has not personally committed. Collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited.

 

[Eric.]

Who is a "protected person"?

 

[bullie77]

senamic, out of curiosity, what's your position about US intervention in Afeghanistan and Iraq, as well as their actions in Guantanamo?

 

[LeftyWright69]

Man could I go off on this subject. “ GO JEWS”

 

[Public'sTwin]

Man could I go off on this subject. “ GO JEWS”

Jews don't really have anything to do with this.

 

[Solid Lifters]

That's odd, Hamas doesn't want the aid back!

Hamas refuses to accept aid cargo from flotilla

By JPOST.COM STAFF
06/02/2010 19:13


Hamas refused on Wednesday to allow the aid equipment that was captured by the IDF aboard the flotilla ships earlier this week to enter the Gaza Strip.

"We refuse to receive the humanitarian aid until all those who were detained aboard the ships are released," said Ahmed Kurd, Minister for Social Welfare in the Hamas government said. "We also insist that the equipment be delivered in its entirety."

Kurd said that Israel's decision to allow a number of wheelchairs to be delivered to the Gaza Strip was a "deception," claiming that the batteries that operate them had been removed by the ID, making them useless.

The Hamas minister said that Israel's decision to send some of the aid that was seized aboard the ships to the Gaza Strip was designed to divert attention from the "massacre" that took place in the sea.

http://www.jpost.com/Headlines/Article.aspx?id=177283

 

[niky]

They get to control imports to their own country. It's called sovereignty.

Just to be clearer.

-

Israel is only enforcing a blockade to prevent materials that can be used in weapons from reaching Palestine. Case in point. The wheelchairs in the article above.

Now... I don't know about you... but sending regular old wheelchairs seems okay... but if they have a mass shipment of electric wheelchairs, which have compact batteries that can be used in making bombs... you've got to wonder when Hamas objects to the removal of said batteries... (and, oh, by the way... we really need that twenty tons of fertilizer and sulfur you blocked, too...)

In other words, Israel is not blocking aid. They're enforcing a weapons ban. Which seems pretty much within the rights of any government (though the libertarians here may object to the ban on principle) to do in order to protect its citizens.