Issues and how to fix them for round 2

  • Thread starter FC3S5
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Although I was surprised at how well the tournament was setup on GT5, I think there are some major issues that could easily be changed for future rounds. I didn't come up with these issues because I'm struggling to get into the top 128 as I held top 10 after only 20 minutes driving Tsukuba (32 now I think). These are just issues that I think would make it more fair, and more importantly for some of us, not end up waisting our time (as explained later).

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Problem 1: Able to download top 10 replays

I see this as a problem because it takes the fun and the skill out of discovering the fastest driving line. I didn't know you could download these replays until after I set a fast time, but if I knew you could I probably would have just downloaded a few top times and tried to copy what they did. Then all it comes down to is if you can physically use the controller or wheel to mimic their line. To me, finding the best driving line is a huge part of what makes a race car driver better.

Solution: Don't allow download of replays until the round is over or after you have done your maximum number of runs (explained later).

EDIT: just found out you can load up a ghost from those top 10s to follow yourself. What? Again, I think this is a huge problem even more now that you don't just have to watch a replay you can literally follow their line while driving.

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Problem 2: Unlimited number of tries over 4-5 weeks time

Whether you download and study the replays of the fastest times or not, if you have all the time in the world (which I know some of you do being on break from school), and you realllly want to go on to the next round, you're probably going to put in hundreds of runs to get a faster time.

During this time, you will probably spin out or restart many times, for me I did it probably every other run in between completing a full lap. You're basically striving for the fastest time possible, which means you're on the limit the entire time which is why you spin out or restart often.

Real race car drivers don't drive this close to the limit or they'd be spinning out and crashing as often as you are.

Solution: Maximum number of runs/laps allowed

I think there needs to be a 'practice session' where you enter it the same way as you do now, but it says 'practice' and you can do as many laps as you want. There you can practice enough to know where the limit is and how fast you can do a lap depending on how close to the limit you want to be.

Then once you feel like you've had enough practice, you go to the real thing where you get a maximum number of attempts (somewhere between 10-50?).

I see this as very helpful because hopefully if you're good, you set a decent time in one of your first few attempts, then after that you can go closer to the limit to set a faster time until you run out of attempts.

The other good thing about this is once you're done you're done and you don't have to worry about it anymore. Where as the way it's setup now you might spend countless hours in the first 3 weeks to set a time in the top 50, but in the last week you get bumped out of the top 128. Well, you just wasted a lot of time and I see this situation likely to happen to many of you.

For me with the way it's setup now, I'll spend a little bit of time seeing what times I can set then wait until the last day to try again, because likely by the last day the top 128 times will be more secured, so if I see I can't break into that, there's no sense in spending hours and hours trying. Those of you that already spent a couple hours on this competition and not in the top 10, you're probably wasting your time and should just wait till the last day.

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Please comment so hopefully we can get a better idea of what other's think about this. Hopefully it doesn't turn into an immature argument between 12 year olds girls.
 
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Just a comment about watching replays. I like having them for obvious reasons. In real racing, lets say qualifying...you would be able to watch others run the track.

but i do see your concern.
 
Unlimited amount of laps isn't a problem. A driver should be able to repeat nearly all the times he can put down. Some will be faster, some will be slower, but consistency is a good thing for a racer. It's not a problem to see others replays, it is quite helpful. You can learn where you are messing up, and where you are doing good. Sometimes it's frustrating to see the ghost just obliterate your time, but it gives incentive to learn where you need improvement.
 
Unlimited amount of laps isn't a problem. A driver should be able to repeat nearly all the times he can put down. Some will be faster, some will be slower, but consistency is a good thing for a racer. It's not a problem to see others replays, it is quite helpful. You can learn where you are messing up, and where you are doing good. Sometimes it's frustrating to see the ghost just obliterate your time, but it gives incentive to learn where you need improvement.

Did you read the entire post?

Unlimited laps is a problem, why not make it 50? It's still plenty. With unlimited laps like I said, you're gonna crash and spin out and restart more times than you actually finish a lap. That doesn't happen in real life. You say consistency is good? No consistency is needed with unlimited attempts. You just keep going till you finally get lucky and post a good time.

In a time trial in real life, you don't really have the other driver's replays and you sure as hell wouldn't have their ghost to follow. A professional driver should have a good idea what the best racing line is without having to copy someone else.

This is a competition where the grand prize is to be a pro driver right? Well when you get to that point or even the last round, you don't get billions of attempts following a ghost car sitting on your couch so you better be able to figure things out yourself because obviously with the way its setup now anyone that is going to make it that far will simply follow the fastest ghost a million times.
 
I don't think the unlimited tries to be a problem. Atleast in last GT Academy the time differences were signifigant even with unlimited tries and fast people were faster than the slow people...
 
Rather than limit the number of laps. I would prefer to have the events do 2-3 laps combined time at each track. This would remove the ability to do bonzai laps, and would require people to hold back a little for the sake of consistency, it would definitely make the event much harder and more meaningful IMO.
 
FC3S5- I totally understand your concern. Believe me, as a guy who has limited time but a good amount of talent, I would prefer these be "lap limited" battles. But remember, some great drivers may not be familiar with the courses or even the "comfort soft" tires. A guy who has spent his life racing on a GT simulator, on Tsukuba with a 370Z before the challenge is going to have a major leg up on someone with little experience in one or all of these areas. As you know, seat time is a MAJOR factor in performance in any form of motorsport. I admire and aspire to be the best GT5 player in the world, but I know I will never get there because I simply will not be able to log the amount of hours required to achieve that skill level. By leaving the laps unlimited, it's going to allow for the less experienced simulation drivers to practice and get their times up. Don't worry though, talent is talent and the right people will still make it through to the second round. Plus, what's to stop someone from buying the car and recreating the challenge in practice or online mode to log laps and practice?

Regarding the replays, I agree with you in the downsides. However, it's good intel on the competition so I am all for it. Plus, it's lets you know there is no cheating going on. It's proof that the driver put down the time and didn't hack the system. (Which goes on alot in other leaderboards like Call of Duty or stuff like that.) :)

So even though I agree with your concerns, I think it's right for the challenges to be set up the way they are.

Nick
 
FC3S5- I totally understand your concern. Believe me, as a guy who has limited time but a good amount of talent, I would prefer these be "lap limited" battles. But remember, some great drivers may not be familiar with the courses or even the "comfort soft" tires. A guy who has spent his life racing on a GT simulator, on Tsukuba with a 370Z before the challenge is going to have a major leg up on someone with little experience in one or all of these areas. As you know, seat time is a MAJOR factor in performance in any form of motorsport. I admire and aspire to be the best GT5 player in the world, but I know I will never get there because I simply will not be able to log the amount of hours required to achieve that skill level. By leaving the laps unlimited, it's going to allow for the less experienced simulation drivers to practice and get their times up. Don't worry though, talent is talent and the right people will still make it through to the second round. Plus, what's to stop someone from buying the car and recreating the challenge in practice or online mode to log laps and practice?

Regarding the replays, I agree with you in the downsides. However, it's good intel on the competition so I am all for it. Plus, it's lets you know there is no cheating going on. It's proof that the driver put down the time and didn't hack the system. (Which goes on alot in other leaderboards like Call of Duty or stuff like that.) :)

So even though I agree with your concerns, I think it's right for the challenges to be set up the way they are.

Nick

Good points there, I like the 2 to 3 lap idea. I still think limiting the number of attempts would be good WITH the ability to do unlimited practice runs ( I mentioned unlimited practice in the post and explained the number of reasons why its a good idea).

Just implementing 2-3 laps would at least require careful and consistent driving, but I still think with an unlimited number of attempts, many of you will be frustrated when you spend a hundred hours to get a spot in top 128 only to get knocked out the last day. And I mean you might be top 20 and get knocked out. You might think the chances of that are low since 20 is a lot better than 128, but it will probably happen.

I agree that the replays reveal any cheating, but I think they should only be viewable by the officials who should monitor daily for cheating to disqualify those that cheated, that way you know where you really stand on the leaderboard ( are they even dq'ing people yet?, they should be checking for it daily).

When the round is over (or if there are a limited number of attempts, once you have run out of attempts) they could be viewable by anyone.
 
FC3S5 - Why is it there is always someone like you in every event known to man. Someone who cries and complains about something he has absolutely not control over and can never change? This is not rhetorical, feel free to explain why this is, and why you are him this time.
 
FC3S5 - Why is it there is always someone like you in every event known to man. Someone who cries and complains about something he has absolutely not control over and can never change? This is not rhetorical, feel free to explain why this is, and why you are him this time.

There's always going to be people on both sides of the argument. So what does it matter to you?
 
I'm just glad PD and Sony are giving people an opportunity to compete. I'm sure the people at both companies love getting all the whiny emails. Maybe because of all the complaints they don't bother to do this again because of all the trouble caused by the complainers.That would be a shame.
 
I think that these recommendations are just dumb.

- Not being able to watch the replay. When you do Autocross or any other activity, you see the other people drive and learn from it. Why not here then?

- Set amount of laps. Dumb and frustrating. The more seat time you have, the better. And if you put a number of times, a bunch of people are going to cry that they got a much better time during practice.

At the end, the best drivers will stay up there. The last 16 will be good. Period. So what does it matter?
 
FC3S5 - Why is it there is always someone like you in every event known to man. Someone who cries and complains about something he has absolutely not control over and can never change? This is not rhetorical, feel free to explain why this is, and why you are him this time.

Really? You're the first one here to complain about anything. No crying/complaining was done by me. I gave my suggestions that I think will improve the competition and wanted to see what others thought about it. I didn't make those suggestions because I'm struggling, I'm still top 50 after spending barely 30 minutes on each track without watching anyone else's replays.

There's no reason for immature comments like yours so just stay out of here.
 
I think that these recommendations are just dumb.

- Not being able to watch the replay. When you do Autocross or any other activity, you see the other people drive and learn from it. Why not here then?

- Set amount of laps. Dumb and frustrating. The more seat time you have, the better. And if you put a number of times, a bunch of people are going to cry that they got a much better time during practice.

At the end, the best drivers will stay up there. The last 16 will be good. Period. So what does it matter?

I didn't know autocross allows you to study other racer's replays a near infinite number of times from multiple views including the driver's view then when you're finally ready to race you can actually follow another car's line and have a near infinite number of attempts.

There's a big difference from walking around the perimeter of an autox course to try to see study what other drivers are doing and what is explained above.

You're only remark why unlimited tries is good is because people will cry that they got a better time during practice? Maybe read my post again. I'll put it another way this time, but one of the reasons unlimited laps is not the best idea, besides the fact you would never get this in a real time trial event, is that your best time you would never be able to hold that same time lap after lap. In the real world you don't have unlimited tries to set a time on a 2-3 minute race. Of course it depends on the race but head to head races are usually fairly long, and obviously you don't get to hit the restart button when you pushed your car too far (which everyone has done in this competition).

I'm sorry you think its 'dumb and frustrating' if you were given unlimited practice runs but a set amount of runs to post a time but that's not a real reason to say it's not a good idea.
 
KAT_Ayanami
At the end, the best drivers will stay up there. The last 16 will be good. Period. So what does it matter?
Couldn't say it any better!

Yes, why does it matter. If the best 16 are destined to make it to the last round anyways, why are 1000s of people waisting their time doing lap after lap? With a set number of laps you don't waste your time and the top 16 still make it to the final round.
 
KAT_Ayanami
Yes, why does it matter. If the best 16 are destined to make it to the last round anyways, why are 1000s of people waisting their time doing lap after lap? With a set number of laps you don't waste your time and the top 16 still make it to the final round.

If they had the exact same things available to practice offline then maybe. But, I think it's some sour grapes from guys that don't have the time to dedicate to be really good.

There will always be people complaining about something.

OMG think of the children!:lol:
 
I'm fine with the format the way it is but think it would be interesting to see in a later round, an event similar to TT's in iRacing where you are required to do 5-10 laps without leaving the racing surface. Afterward your average lap time is computed. I think it would be cool to have a practice option and a TT format like this that you can try only a handful of times to see how consistent some of these players can actually drive. Sure, if you are a decent driver, practice enough, and do enough laps, your bound to get it nearly all right at least once or twice, but how many fast laps can you do in a row without making any mistakes? would be cool to see a 10 lap average at those first 2 tracks.

The Cheef
 
I'm fine with the format the way it is but think it would be interesting to see in a later round, an event similar to TT's in iRacing where you are required to do 5-10 laps without leaving the racing surface. Afterward your average lap time is computed. I think it would be cool to have a practice option and a TT format like this that you can try only a handful of times to see how consistent some of these players can actually drive. Sure, if you are a decent driver, practice enough, and do enough laps, your bound to get it nearly all right at least once or twice, but how many fast laps can you do in a row without making any mistakes? would be cool to see a 10 lap average at those first 2 tracks.

The Cheef

+1 - so much better to have multiple laps.

In iRacing I'm actually much better at stringing multiple laps together (my time trial average is usually w/in 0.1 or 0.2 of my Qualifying times), and it really separates the players from the hacks.

Overall I believe the best drivers will still make it to Orlando and then UK, so I'm not complaining too much.
 
You can change the rules however you want, but the results will still be mostly the same. If you force a true TT setup (3-4 laps average) the times will be slower, but that will be across the board, the same people will still be fast. Also, there's really no point in limiting true qualifying laps. If I can run practice all I want I'll just run it to death, until I'm pumping out my hotlap consistently, then I'll go into true qualy and still throw down about the same lap. The bottom line is, the same people will still be at the top.

I do like the true TT idea though, I think it's a good system.

Personally considering this is for a chance to drive a REAL car I think every one should be forced to cockpit, but do I actually expect that? Nope and even if that was forced, people would adapt in no time and still be just as fast. It'll still be what I use because I love it, but to each their own. The people at the top are there because A) Obvioulsy, they're fast, B) They know how to adapt and overcome.
 
You can change the rules however you want, but the results will still be mostly the same. If you force a true TT setup (3-4 laps average) the times will be slower, but that will be across the board, the same people will still be fast. Also, there's really no point in limiting true qualifying laps. If I can run practice all I want I'll just run it to death, until I'm pumping out my hotlap consistently, then I'll go into true qualy and still throw down about the same lap. The bottom line is, the same people will still be at the top.

I do like the true TT idea though, I think it's a good system.

Personally considering this is for a chance to drive a REAL car I think every one should be forced to cockpit, but do I actually expect that? Nope and even if that was forced, people would adapt in no time and still be just as fast. It'll still be what I use because I love it, but to each their own. The people at the top are there because A) Obvioulsy, they're fast, B) They know how to adapt and overcome.

I don't think you got the drift of what I meant when I talked about unlimited practice and a set number of attempts to set your fastest lap time. If you have an unlimited number of attempts to set your fastest time, you are going to be driving the car at the very edge of its limit. Most likely you will spin out or mess up somewhere and need to restart, many times. In a real race you would never drive that close to the limit or you'd be crashing out of the race.

The point of unlimited practice is to learn how fast you can go consistently without messing up, and then use what you learned from practice to set your fastest time which will be a lot more realistic of what you can actually do.

I don't care if the fastest 16 make it to the final round or not, that's not what this is about. I know my chances of making it are slim, like 95% of everyone else.

But why not see how far I can go or where I match up against other players, that's the fun in the competition I see. However, do I really want to go through the same repetition of following a ghost car lap after lap after lap just so I can hang with the guys that are repeating this hundreds of times themselves?

Those that make it to the final round will be good, I don't doubt that. But how much time are they going to put into this? Probably a lot more than some of us have, or care to. Those that don't put in that much time are at a disadvantage and there's the possibility other people would have knocked out the top 16 had they put in the same amount of time.


You really think anyone's fastest lap they post, they could repeat over and over? Well good for you, if you yourself can, but I don't see that happening for anyone else. What you're talking about is repeating a quick but consistent lap which is what succesful racecar drivers do, and something that would be required by taking away unlimited attempts.
 
I know I can lap the Cape within .5 of my best each lap and keep it under control. When I really push sometimes I mess up, just like what would happen in real life. I know when I race karts I would push it a little too far into a corner just to see what I could do. Sometimes I crashed spectacularly and sometimes it stuck and knew I could repeat it with the same results.

Those that don't put in time are at a disadvantage, and the only person they can blame is themselves. If it's not a priority to make it to the next round then they don't deserve the chance.
 
With enough practice I wouldn't need any more than 10 laps to get within a tenth or two of my best lap. I was that way in Forza, I'm that way in iRacing now. The time you put in is what you get out. Yeah, every now and then you get that ridiculous untouchable lap, but running consistently within 2-3 tenths isn't really that hard on a normal track. At 2+ minutes on this Cape whatever track that may not be quite as realistic, but if you put in the time you should certainly have the consistency to bust out competitive lap times, lap after lap, with a few really good ones scattered about.

I know what you're saying, but I'm just saying it all ends up the same.

I've seen the "Well they just have more time to put in." argument a thousand times, but that just boils down to an excuse.
 
You can change the rules however you want, but the results will still be mostly the same.

The people at the top are there because A) Obvioulsy, they're fast, B) They know how to adapt and overcome.

I have to agree. No matter what the rules are, the same people will be topping the time charts.
 
I also agree. The people who are A) fast enough to have a shot at making the national finals, B) Motivated enough to put in the time to practice to make it happen, are the ones who are going to make it through to the finals. If you've got school, or work, or something else, you just have to judge how big of a priority you place on playing GT5 doing the GT Academy TT. I know I'll have school in the upcoming rounds but you can be damn sure I'm going to be spending multiple hours a day doing my best to make it to subsequent rounds. This isn't because I don't have a life, it's because I want to make it to the national finals and am willing to put in the hours to have the best shot at having it happen.
 
I understand the point that is trying to be made here, but take this into consideration. If you aren't driven enough in competition to make it t the last rounds, then why try?
 
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