Jaguar to build £700,000 hybrid supercar with Williams

[Eunos_Cosmo]

I'd say a car is a success if it is comprehensively a success. Just four road legal Storms were made, presumably because of the high cost. The car was almost entirely unsuccessful in racing. It was just flat out slow and unreliable. I mean, I suppose they made some profits (did they? I don't really know?) and won a few races towards the end of the program when all of the factory-backed competition left, but I don't think the engineers behind the car would really consider that a success.

Or let me put it to you this way, do you think any self respecting team (especially one with the rather prestigious name of "Lister") would set out with the goal of: "Let's build a really slow, unreliable, and largely noncompetitive race car, and then release not as many as we might have hoped for road going versions of it, and when those metrics are met, we'll know we have a successful project." I see that result as more of a "well, we didn't really achieve what we were aiming for, but we also didn't make out too badly in the end. Job done, let's try harder next time."

Perhaps I'm being too critical, but I think a lot of you guys judge success on a few too little counts. None of these mythical Jaguars have been comprehensively successful, and that's all I'm trying to say. None of them have achieved legendary status, such has been achieved by many cars produced by Ferrari, Mclaren, and even Lamborghini. The cats are almost entirely forgotten, and I'm afraid that's the fate the C-X75 will meet as well.

Edit: Just to clarify that I'm not trying to be biased in my posts, I really like both the XJR15 and the Lister Storm. The Storm was one of my most driven cars in NFS3 and Gran Turismo 3, even though, just as in real life, it was slow as balls compared to the competition. The XJR15 is only just behind the Mclaren F1 on my 90's supercar 'do-want' list. Also, the V6 in the XJ220 (albeit in it's original naturally aspirated form in the heart of the Metro 6R4) is one of my all-time favorite engines, so I have no bones about the switch from the V12. But again, I'm just saying Jaguar has a track record of broken promises and unfinished projects. How many times was the F-type project delayed/canceled/renewed again?

 

[McLaren]

I'd say a car is a success if it is comprehensively a success. Just four road legal Storms were made, presumably because of the high cost. The car was almost entirely unsuccessful in racing. It was just flat out slow and unreliable. I mean, I suppose they made some profits (did they? I don't really know?) and won a few races towards the end of the program, but I don't think the engineers behind the car would really consider that a success.

"Won a few races". Proving you again you don't do any research into what you post.

The Storm GT took the teams championship in the FIA GT in 2000, 3rd in 2001, and 2nd in 2002. The only teams that beat them in those remaining 2 years were running the 1 car that everyone had trouble beating; the GTS-Rs.

So, a troublesome first 4 years, yet a much more successful remaining 4 until the factory moved on to the LMP. Hmm, that seems more like it started doing well halfway through the program, not towards the end. But again, you don't do your homework, so it's not surprising your attempt at trying to prove your point falls flat.

Perhaps I'm being too critical, but I think a lot of you guys judge success on a few too little counts. None of these mythical Jaguars have been comprehensively successful, and that's all I'm trying to say. None of them have achieved legendary status, such has been achieved by many cars produced by Ferrari, Mclaren, and even Lamborghini. The cats are almost entirely forgotten, and I'm afraid that's the fate the C-X75 will meet as well.

Or perhaps you judge success way too poorly. The XJ-13's fate was decided by an unfortunate accident, the XJR-15 was a successful car for Jaguar considering the units they sold at the price tag for each, the XJ220 was a failure even though it did manage to grab the world record for top speed in a production car extremely briefly, & the CX-75 achieved what the company wanted as far as the end result of the product itself. However, the economy isn't where Jaguar feels it's at & Jaguar does not simply have the funds to go through with the project anyway unlike Bugatti & Lexus who have parent companies to cover the costs.

 

[freshseth83]

Whats it really matter if the car is a success or not? Its a great performing and looking vehicle. If the tech can trickle down to other Jag's, maybe it will be a success in its own unique way.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

"Won a few races". Proving you again you don't do any research into what you post.

The Storm GT took the teams championship in the FIA GT in 2000, 3rd in 2001, and 2nd in 2002. The only teams that beat them in those remaining 2 years were running the 1 car that everyone had trouble beating; the GTS-Rs.

So, a troublesome first 4 years, yet a much more successful remaining 4 until the factory moved on to the LMP. Hmm, that seems more like it started doing well halfway through the program, not towards the end. But again, you don't do your homework, so it's not surprising your attempt at trying to prove your point falls flat.

Why are you always so hostile?

While this is straining far away from my original point, the Listers only began to have success after the factory supported teams withdrew, and then only for a year before the privateer teams started beating them. That's not exactly a wonderful legacy.

You can look at the season results. They weren't up against much.

Then look at 2002. Five privateer teams of which only three routinely scored points, and Lister finished second.

Winning is winning. But it's hard to call the Storm a good race car.

Or perhaps you judge success way too poorly. The XJ-13's fate was decided by an unfortunate accident, the XJR-15 was a successful car for Jaguar considering the units they sold at the price tag for each, the XJ220 was a failure even though it did manage to grab the world record for top speed in a production car extremely briefly, & the CX-75 achieved what the company wanted as far as the end result of the product itself. However, the economy isn't where Jaguar feels it's at & Jaguar does not simply have the funds to go through with the project anyway unlike Bugatti & Lexus who have parent companies to cover the costs.

Back to Jaguar. My opinion is that if a car is designed to be a production vehicle (as was clearly the goal of Jaguar) and it never actually becomes one, then it has failed to become a production car. If Jaguar had expressly stated (as it seemed to in the beginning, before getting anyone's hopes up) that the car was soley an engineering testbed for future Jaguar technologies and not to be a production vehicle then I would agree that the project was entirely successful. But they told us they would make it, and they didn't. Tough luck about the economy, it makes failures out of many products and people.

With that said, I'm sure they could have found investors...unless those investors looked at the XJ220 program and thought...nah, I'll pass.

 

[McLaren]

Why are you always so hostile?

Why are you always posting misinformation & twisting it to make your points....

For example, you said Jaguar planned to build & sell 250 examples. That is not what they said. They said they would only build a maximum of 250 examples. That's not the same as saying their goal was to build exactly that many.

But, you twisted it to try & prove the car was a failure.

While this is straining far away from my original point, the Listers only began to have success after the factory supported teams withdrew, and then only for a year before the privateer teams started beating them. That's not exactly a wonderful legacy.

You can look at the season results. They weren't up against much.

Yep, they definitely weren't up against the most dominating car in FIA GT history (until the MC12) that had success whether in the hands of Oreca or a privateer team.

Back to Jaguar. My opinion is that if a car is designed to be a production vehicle (as was clearly the goal of Jaguar) and it never actually becomes one, then it has failed to become a production car. If Jaguar had expressly stated (as it seemed to in the beginning, before getting anyone's hopes up) that the car was soley an engineering testbed for future Jaguar technologies and not to be a production vehicle then I would agree that the project was entirely successful. But they told us they would make it, and they didn't. Tough luck about the economy, it makes failures out of many products and people.

With that said, I'm sure they could have found investors...unless those investors looked at the XJ220 program and thought...nah, I'll pass.

Except that doesn't mean the car wasn't successful. Jaguar did not sit & go, "Well, we can't reach what we envisioned, so we're scraping it". The production car met most of what Jaguar promised & considering they did build 5 examples, they seemed to have got as close one could get to production. The only thing that is holding the car back is Jaguar's decision to not release it; nothing however, says it can't be relaunched later. If what Jaguar learned from building the CX-75 does trickle down into multiple other cars, then some success can be given to it for being the doorway to new hybrid technology for Jaguar.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Lister:
I'm just going by what the race results are telling me. 1 out of 8 seasons it won a championship against 5 privateer teams. I'm not sure how much money Lister had, but it's very rare that a privateer team can compete with a factory team in any motorsport. For instance, the Chrysler teams in 1999 won nearly every race against other similar Viper GTSR's, with Lister only scoring points in three out of ten rounds..Maybe calling the Lister unremarkable would be more accurate.

I'm no FIA GT expert, so I'll concede the point.

Jaguar:
You are only as good as your sources. Mine was the BBC, I was hoping that would be fairly credible when their opening sentence is: "It will build 250 cars in partnership with Formula 1 team Williams F1." That sounds pretty definite to me. It is a discussion board, and your point is valid. If they did say 'a maximum of' then I understand you, but I wasn't intending to distort anything.

And I certainly reserve the right to change my mind if that happens, and they do produce it, though I would be happiest with the original jet turbines.

 

[Kent]

Lister is way off the subject but just the same I can't resist...

Lister, as a brand and factory may as well be a privateer.

 

[DeathSmiles]

Top Gear got ahold of the blue (meant for press) C-X75.

http://www.topgear.com/uk/photos/jaguar-c-x75-top-gear-drive-2013-08-02