Joey's Cooper Thread; Suspension Thoughts

[Philly]

They are useful for taillights though... I don't exactly inspect mine on a regular basis.

I agree that they do look pretty dim though.

 

[Joey D]

They are dim, but I'd rather have them dim then "OMG AMBER" lights in my eyelids. I'll run them for a bit and if I decide I need a change they are only a few bucks so it's no loss. The bulbs fit in my indicators so I can always just swap them in there and call it a day.

I think I'm slowly going to switch my car over to LED lights, they just look so much cleaner.

 

[Joey D]

Three Years In The Making

Honestly, I can't believe I've owned the car three years. With all the driving I've done with it I feel like it should be closer to five. This past year alone I put 22,958 miles on the car and funny enough I still enjoy driving the car almost as much as I did when I bought it. Sure the suspension isn't as tight, the interior has been dulled and dirty, there are numerous dings and chips in the paintwork, and their are now squeaks and rattles, but the car has character and I still enjoy getting in it every morning and driving to where ever I'm off too.

This past year with the car has seen it's fair share of adventures. I've got myself a new motoring partner who is part of the reason for increased mileage (Kari lives over 30 miles one way from me). The car went on more holidays this past year too and had a couple mishaps along the way, although it was nothing serious, but made for an interesting story in some cases.

To sort of sum up the adventures it's had I'll show some pictures since they are far more interesting then a bunch of text.

The Cooper took Kari and I to Hell over the summer. We were bored one day and just took off in the car for parts unknown and ended up in Hell, Michigan. It was surprisingly less firey then it should have been, although there were a lot of fat people there .

The car also took us to the northern part of Michigan a couple times, going to Mackinac, Traverse City, Michigan's Wine Country, and all over the Upper Peninsula.

Here's the car next to the Mackinac Bridge:

And in Michigan's Wine Country along the famous M-22 highway.

In the Sleeping Bear Dune National Park

And along the shores of Gichigami, the largest fresh water lake in the world.

As you can see, I've done my fair share of travelling this year and the Cooper still holds out to be a decent road tripping vehicle with it's great fuel economy and halfway decent comfort. The hatch even allows for adequate storage space for two people.

Like I said, I still enjoy the car every day and it's been fairly problem free (knock on wood). I am still conflicted on what I want to do with moving on to something else. I have test drove about 6 cars in the past few weeks and nothing really gives me the same feeling as the Cooper. I'm in need of a new car but I'm going to keep looking and if something comes along that is a must have then I'll be ready.

Oh and just because autumn in Michigan is a lovely time of year I snapped some pics a couple weeks ago:

 

[homeforsummer]

Glad you're still enjoying it Joey. With the milage you put on it's definitely proving itself, and personally if I was still that happy with the car I'd be tempted to keep it even with high milage, and either look for something else to cover your daily duties and keep the Cooper as a toy (you know you want to slam it...), or continue using the Cooper as a daily and enjoy many more happy miles, and find something like a classic Mini to do up and use as a weekend plaything. Would seem a shame to get shot of a car that's still meeting all your expectations.

 

[Philly]

Glad you're still loving the car. On the contrary to your feeling like it's been five years, to me it still feels like it is a very new car on these boards.

Hopefully you can find something that you love as much as that thing. It's gotta be tough to replace a car that's still as awesome as it was on day 1.

 

[Joey D]

Ya I'm not really sure what to do, maybe I should just keep it until it starts to become to costly to fix. I would like to keep driving it as I do enjoy it. I only wish it was a little bigger at time when I do have to carry a lot of stuff, but it works. When I worked for the antique store I managed to fit all sorts of odd things in the back, from a Mayan statue to a suit of Samurai armour.

I have had thoughts of keeping it and getting a toy, which would more then likely be a classic Cooper.

 

[socomplayer2]

Hey dude, did you ever figure out what your getting after the cooper?

 

[Keef]

You should compare the Countryman and the coupe version, then compare it to a Juke. Seriously, just humor us with the Juke. Go drive a loaded model with the CVT and honestly tell us you don't like it afterward.

 

[Joey D]

I'm allergic to Nissan's made after the mid-90's.

And for a replacement I've driven several cars and right now I have no idea what to get. Anything I really want is north of $35,000 and I'm not ready to spend that sort of money since I am house shopping. I'd rather buy a bigger, nicer house then a car. But in a weird twist of fate I might get a Ford Fusion soon, but that's another story for another time.

 

[Keef]

I don't care if you're allergic to them. A good car is a good car and you're doing yourself a disservice if you don't at least try it. It basically has everything you're looking for - it's new, it's turbo, it has four doors, it's a hatchiback, it's AWD, and can be had without a clutch pedal. And the commercial is amusing.

 

[Joey D]

I don't think Nissan makes good cars and the Juke has a CVT which I think is something like the anti-Christ. You know how standard trans people feel about automatics? Well I feel the same way about CVT's, and I don't care how much better they are.

Anyway I think I've given up on the car thing, unless I get the Fusion which would end up being a daily driver or something. Whatever the case I'm at the point with the Cooper that the suspension is getting worn. The car needs new struts (they got 65,000 miles on them) and I think some of the bushings are wearing out too.

I'm looking at a couple different things, none that will completely solve the problem but I'm kind of kicking around the idea to step it up a notch with these suspension.

Alta Performance offers a "sport suspension" pack that has H&R Spring, 19mm rear sway, and front/rear end links. It'll set the car down about 1.5" and make it feel like a car again instead of something with 65,000 miles on it. It's attractively priced at $640 plus a couple cases of beer to get my friends to help me install it. Although I would still have to replace the worn struts.

The other option is the H&R Touring Cup Kit which is basically just springs and struts and drops the car about 1.4". It's $800 though which is getting pricey although I think it might be a better solution because the springs and struts are made for each other.

I have no idea and I'm clueless with car suspension, give me an S-Truck and I'm good, but a car...errr not so much.

 

[Keef]

When it comes to springs and dampers, the part to concentrate on is the dampers. Especially with your penchant for high quality products, a general rule to go by is that the Germans know how to make a seriously good damper. H&R being a spring company, a doubt they use their own dampers. Instead they probably use something from Koni, Sachs, Bilstein or Ohlins, which are all German and are all basically the best in the business. No matter what kit you go with, you're going to want sport applications from one of these companies - especially Bilstein and Koni.

I would lean toward the H&R personally. Saves the hassle of finding dampers, which are typically very expensive, and groups everything into one simple purchase. If you want, email them and ask who supplies the dampers for the kit. They probably aren't adjustable, but that will just make it easier since the dampers are chosen specifically to compliment the springs on that particular car. The extra $160 is well worth it considering it already comes with dampers.

As an example, I'd be willing to spend over $600 just for dampers themselves. Beyond that, I'd spend considerably more for a high quality coilover set, concentrating on the damper itself. Something like an Ohlins coilover kit can run about $2500 for a Miata, but having experienced them I'm inclined to say that the benefit of a perfectly tuned damper is well worth that ridiculous price. When it comes to ride quality, it's 80% damper and 20% everything else. It is possible to be quite stiff and still very comfortable, but you have to pay for the engineering hours.

 

[Joey D]

They are Koni yellows apparently per what reviews on the interwebz have said. I have no idea whether those are good or not but I had a buddy that ran Koni's in his autox prepared ACR Neon and he loved them. I can't imagine they are bad.

Here's a car running the H&R Touring Cup kit, it's an S with the aero kit on it so if I did it to my car it wouldn't look that low.

Even then I don't know, people say anything more then a 1" drop on MINI for a daily driver is way to much. I'll have to do some more research. I guess worse case is I could opt for a set of Koni's or something to replace my struts and then get springs later on that don't drop it as much.

 

[Keef]

They are Koni yellows apparently per what reviews on the interwebz have said. I have no idea whether those are good or not but I had a buddy that ran Koni's in his autox prepared ACR Neon and he loved them. I can't imagine they are bad.

Koni Sport "Yellow" and Bilstein Sports are the go-to damper for pretty much everybody who uses lowering springs. Very good quality parts. Besides build quality, Koni knows how to design the valving to be the best performance/comfort compromise possible. Some Yellows are adjustable too, but I'm not sure if they all are.

Even then I don't know, people say anything more then a 1" drop on MINI for a daily driver is way to much.

People need to grow a pair. If all they can handle is an inch of low then they need to go buy themselves an old Taurus, give up on cars completely, and start drawing retirement.

Anyway, the car you posted sits pretty nice. I could be lower for sure, but at that height you're not going to have to worry about parking lots and driveways much more than you do now. The overhangs on Coopers are so short that it probably isn't a problem anyway. Plus, the stiffer springs and dampers should liven up the car considerably. Just make sure you get an alignment done soon after and you should be set to enjoy your car once more.

Next step: Intake and exhaust mods to make the car sound more fun. A little bit of sound goes a long way.

 

[homeforsummer]

I don't think Nissan makes good cars and the Juke has a CVT which I think is something like the anti-Christ. You know how standard trans people feel about automatics? Well I feel the same way about CVT's, and I don't care how much better they are.

As far as I'm aware you can have a "stepped" mode for the CVT in the Juke that behaves more like a regular auto box if you want some fun. And then when you're just cruising, you can leave it in the regular stepless mode and get decent economy.

Most of the auto journos I've spoken to love the Juke, and just for comparison I've not talked to a single one who'd have the Countryman over the Juke, not least because Countrymans (Countrymen?) with equivalent spec are a good £5k more expensive over here.

 

[Joey D]

Anyway, the car you posted sits pretty nice. I could be lower for sure, but at that height you're not going to have to worry about parking lots and driveways much more than you do now. The overhangs on Coopers are so short that it probably isn't a problem anyway. Plus, the stiffer springs and dampers should liven up the car considerably. Just make sure you get an alignment done soon after and you should be set to enjoy your car once more.

Having driven the Blazer for so long I've got used to avoid bumps and inclines as much as I could. So that shouldn't be a problem, although I've probably slacked a bit more then I should have since the Cooper has suspension whereas the Blazer didn't.

I'll think about it in the spring and see what I want to do. I don't want to lower the car in the midst of winter especially when they said we are supposed to get 12"+ on Tuesday.

Next step: Intake and exhaust mods to make the car sound more fun. A little bit of sound goes a long way.

The intakes for the justa-Cooper are stupidly expensive and don't do much, same goes for an exhaust. I'm not interested in speed, my car will never be fast unless I trade it in for an S. I'd rather improve the handling a bit and call it a day.

As far as I'm aware you can have a "stepped" mode for the CVT in the Juke that behaves more like a regular auto box if you want some fun. And then when you're just cruising, you can leave it in the regular stepless mode and get decent economy.

Most of the auto journos I've spoken to love the Juke, and just for comparison I've not talked to a single one who'd have the Countryman over the Juke, not least because Countrymans (Countrymen?) with equivalent spec are a good £5k more expensive over here.

The Juke probably is a good car, the reviews have been favourable and I do agree that since it is cheaper then the Countryman it might make more sense. I just hate Nissans so I wouldn't even think about it.

But like I said, if I get a new car anytime soon it'll be a Ford Fusion Hybrid due to a bizarre series of events.

 

[Joey D]

So as I've recently discussed my struts are pretty much shot. It feels like I'm riding on stale marshmallows and I can really tell my handling isn't what it used to be 65,000 miles ago when the car was new (obviously).

Here's sort of what I'm thinking to replace everything with:

Bilstein HD struts, which apparently are similar to Koni FSD's only half the price and have better reviews from MINI owners. The only problem is they lift the car up about a half inch, but what's a half an inch? Not much.

NM Engineering RS Alpha Spring Kit, it's an offshoot of Neuspeed and they'd drop the car down about 30mm. Eibach and TSW makes kits as well but it seems like Cooper owners think pretty highly of the NM ones.

I will be getting new tires in the spring too as the Dizerra's are getting kinda cooked through and they are frankly crap. I'm looking at doing Conti ExtremeContact DW's or Potenza RE760 Sport's. Still haven't figured out which tires I want yet.

I also want to beef up the rear sway bar to a 19mm one from the stock 17mm which is awful. I've wanted to do this since I got the car and I'm feeling like I want to have fun this summer while driving.

====

**Oh apparently Koni Sports are on sale right now, any thoughts on these? They are about $300 more then the HD's but are they worth it?

===

So thoughts? I know almost nothing about car suspension past what Keef told me a couple posts back. I agree struts are more important then springs so I want to get the right struts and then worry about springs.

 

[Perfect Balance]

So as I've recently discussed my struts are pretty much shot.

They are probably worn, but not shot. Normal cars shouldn't wear shocks out in 60k miles.

but what's a half an inch? Not much.

When you're talking about a car with 2 inches of wheel gap, half an inch is a lot.

I also want to beef up the rear sway bar to a 19mm one from the stock 17mm which is awful. I've wanted to do this since I got the car and I'm feeling like I want to have fun this summer while driving.

I would hold off on the sway bar until you do springs. Lots of times aftermarket springs will use a slightly stiffer rear spring for this reason, and that paired with a bigger sway bay might be overkill for something other than an autocross car.

So thoughts? I know almost nothing about car suspension past what Keef told me a couple posts back. I agree struts are more important then springs so I want to get the right struts and then worry about springs.

The right struts depends on which springs you want to run, since dampers are usually valved per spring rate.

 

[Joey D]

The car bounces a lot, which makes me think they are pretty wore out. And it seems like a lot of people around MINI forums are saying the life of the OEM's are between 60,000-80,000 depending on road conditions and driving style.

If I was going to do a sway bar I'd do everything at the same time since to install one on the Cooper you have to remove one of the struts apparently. It seems like doing it all at once would be the easiest since everything would be all apart any way.

I'm still debating on the springs, we really have crap roads and I don't want the front of my car to end up like the Blazer.

 

[Keef]

Bilstein HD struts, which apparently are similar to Koni FSD's only half the price...

Bilstein HD shocks are the "base model". Factory replacement. Koni FSD shocks are their flagship factory replacement model. They target the same audience but are on different levels in terms of technology and obviously price. Hardly similar.

...but what's a half an inch? Not much.

Awkwardly noticeable.

NM Engineering RS Alpha Spring Kit, it's an offshoot of Neuspeed and they'd drop the car down about 30mm.

If you're going to be dropping your car you're going to want a sport damper, like Koni Sports ("yellows") or Bilstein Sports. They have firmer damping characteristics and are designed specifically to work with stiffer and shorter springs. Some applications have adjustable damping with a simple knob, and having used adjustable Koni Sports on my own car I can tell you that there is a very obvious difference in the settings. It's fun to find the perfect balance among the 4 or so settings, but once you find one you like you can just leave it there.

I will be getting new tires in the spring too as the Dizerra's are getting kinda cooked through and they are frankly crap. I'm looking at doing Conti ExtremeContact DW's or Potenza RE760 Sport's. Still haven't figured out which tires I want yet.

I'd recommend crossing the Conti off your list because it is a pretty serious performance tire, and a step above the Bridgestone and a favorite recommendation of mine, the Yokohama S.Drive.

The RE760 has beaten the S.Drive in tests, but for tires of the performance class, test scores this close are almost negligible. I would buy based on price, and the S.Drive appears to be slightly cheaper, maybe saving your $30 or $40 for the set.

I also want to beef up the rear sway bar to a 19mm one from the stock 17mm which is awful. I've wanted to do this since I got the car and I'm feeling like I want to have fun this summer while driving.

Like PB said, wait until you see how the lowering springs affect the car's handling. Rear spring rates are typically proportionally stiffer to the front vs. stock rates, and that increased stiffness helps counteract understeer. At the limit it may be just enough, but a fat sway bar could lead you into some gnarly lift-off oversteer if you're not expecting it. When it comes to increasing performance everybody from street drivers to race drivers should make changes one step at a time and adjust accordingly.

If you're not one to explore limits and throttle-steer around cloverleafs, go ahead and get the sway. After I installed my coilovers I nearly spun out my Civic numerous times simply from being on the limit and letting off the gas. And with those spring rates the stock 13mm bar wasn't even doing anything.

**Oh apparently Koni Sports are on sale right now, any thoughts on these? They are about $300 more then the HD's but are they worth it?

If you're planning on getting stiffer lowering springs, yes. These firmer dampers have the guts to dampen the stiffer spring's bounce, whereas softer dampers, and especially worn out stock ones like so many people use, would leave the car wallowing up and down just enough to be annoying as hell on the highway.

This all may sound expensive, but keep in mind it is a far cry from a fully adjustable coilover which I and a few other performance-minded people would always strive for.

 

[Joey D]

Bilstein said the HD's can take a 1.5" drop with no problem, but the more I read it looks like the Koni's are probably the better way to go and will probably last a lot longer. I don't really care for the adjusting on them though since you have to remove them from the rear of the car to adjust. But it looks like you just put them on, adjust them anywhere from .5 to a full turn and it's good on most MINI's.

I won't get S.Drives, I think you are the only person I've heard that likes them. A lot of MINI owners switch to the DW's which is why I thought about them. They have good reviews, the RE760's are another popular choice.

And I'm not going to be turning the road into a race track, I'm just looking for a little fun and a project. I figure a good way to keep my mind occupied is to start a project.

The sway bar I'm looking at is adjustable too so I'd just put it on the softest setting, which is 132% vs. stock and go from there.

And I know coilovers are way more expensive, I can get something cheap like VMAXX's but I don't think cheap and coilover go together very well.

 

[eiriksmil]

Why not get a set of quality coils?

 

[Joey D]

Why not get a set of quality coils?

They'd be at least $2,000 if not more. Plus I'm not looking for that much performance, just a mild drop and a bit sportier of a suspension.

If it wasn't a daily I'd probably do coilovers though, but I don't know how'd they stand up to 20,000 miles a year and through the salt and slush of winter.

 

[Keef]

Yeah, coilovers don't make sense for your application. You're not looking for outright performance, and you're not into retarded schlammage either, both of which coils are good for.

Buy another Mini and schlam it like byyyaaaahhhhh!

 

[Joey D]

No new MINI, if I was going to buy a second fun car it'd be a classic Cooper with RHD or something.

I have decided on Koni sports and probably will order then in the next week or so. I'm waiting on a cheque from some work I did and that ought to fund them nicely. I figured I might as well do this properly instead of halfassing it, so that's why I'm going with the shocks designed for lowering springs.

I'll order the springs later since I'm not planning on doing anything until it warms up a bit. I'm pretty n00bish when it comes to wrenching on cars so I figure springs and struts will take a while to put on. Laying outside in the cold seems like the anti-fun.

One more thing, do front strut bars actually do anything? I found a deal on one from a good MINI tuner and I'm thinking about that too.

With all this suspension crap I'm planning maybe I should try my hand at autox too.

 

[eSZee]

On a Mini, probably not. Actually most cars, probably not.

 

[Keef]

One more thing, do front strut bars actually do anything? I found a deal on one from a good MINI tuner and I'm thinking about that too.

Especially on cars with McStrut front suspensions, because some lateral force gets transferred up the strut and into the strut tower, which is typically not braced on inexpensive cars. The strut effectively becomes the upper control arm. Look at the new Mustang or the CTS - they have strut tower braces from the factory to help solidify the frame and isolate suspension motions.

I could tell the difference the very first time I pulled out of the driveway. It's just a much more direct feeling. On the road, it'll result in what you might call a rougher ride, but what I consider better feel and more isolated suspension motion. When one tire hits a bump now, the chassis naturally flexes as it absorbs the suspension force - it effectively makes the suspension feel softer. With the brace, when that one tire hits a bump the chassis won't flex at all and the suspension will be doing it's job, which typically ends up feeling stiffer than you actually thought it was.

The difference will probably be lost in translation since you are also adding lower, stiffer springs, but you can take comfort in the fact that, yes, the strut brace is working.

As for buying them: Do no buy a hinged strut brace. They're worthless. The hinges simply rotate, allowing each strut tower to move on its own. Only buy solidly-welded and preferably heavily gusseted pieces. Since your car is a modern FWD car, sturdiness of the bar may take a back seat to space limitations, because the bar will undoubtedly be under the damn windshield anyway.

 

[Perfect Balance]

As for buying them: Do no buy a hinged strut brace. They're worthless. The hinges simply rotate, allowing each strut tower to move on its own. Only buy solidly-welded and preferably heavily gusseted pieces. Since your car is a modern FWD car, sturdiness of the bar may take a back seat to space limitations, because the bar will undoubtedly be under the damn windshield anyway.

I'll agree with everything except this part. The hinged ones are not worthless.

In the case of a McPherson strut suspension, the strut tower brace's objective is to keep the strut towers from moving in relation to each other, because on McPherson strut cars, the lateral, as well as vertical forces, are directly applied to the strut towers. They end up flexing a lot more than double wishbone cars, where the strut towers simply act as a mounting location for the shock, and lateral forces are applied to the upper control arm.

A strut tower brace, even a hinged one, still prevents this by keeping the strut towers from moving in relation to each other, as well as distributing the loads applied to either one. Granted, it still doesn't work as well as a solid one, but they still do the job they were intended for.

In the case of a double wishbone car, where the upper mounts only experience vertical forces from the suspension compressing, the strut mounts don't really move much, and it's more beneficial to just focus on stiffening the chassis, rather than making sure the strut mounts stay parallel with each other.

This is why it's a lot easier to find a solid bar for a double wishbone car, than one with a McPherson strut suspension.

 

[Joey D]

Good to know about the strut bar, I don't think there are any non-hinged ones for a Cooper though.

I'm tempted to get the M7 one since I already have the tower plated and it bolts into that. NM Engineering makes one that all the MINI people swear by. There is the JCW one but since it's made by BMW and has the JCW logo on it, it cost slightly more the the GDP of Germany.

Here's the M7 Bar:

Here's the NM Bar:

I have decided against lowering springs, unless I'm doing coil overs there isn't a point and all I'm going to do is beat the hell out of the front of the car on Michigan's crap roads. However, I still think I'm going to get better struts, I mean there is no reason not to. Pricing out stock, OEM struts I'm looking at $150/$200 per strut...that's pretty much the same price as Koni's. I figured I could figure out how to put them on, I mean how hard can it be? Plus my buddy said he'd help me and he just put like $4,000 worth of suspension on his F-body.

Oh and for tires I'm getting the Conti DW's, I talked with the guy who's the MINI geek at Tire Rack and he said they were the right tire for the car. I'll blow through them in a season/season and a half any way so if I really hate them they will be outta here quick enough I suppose.

 

[Keef]

The NM bar is the stronger design, honestly. With two bolts at the ends it won't hinge and is effectively one piece.

As fro lowering springs, if I were you I would still do it. You may indeed have to be more conscious of the road surface, but rolling around in a car that looks badass is worth it. Just looking out your living room window and seeing it in the driveway is like...