JSTC400 (GT300) Series! Season 1 Races Complete

[freshseth83]

Try it again.

 

[TDZdave]

I think that's more a racing incident then anything, you waited several times for him to get his act together, to suffer a penalty for someone else's panic attack and getting on the accelerator with dirty tires and losing control of the car further down the road, but here's a dot point to how I'm deciphering it,

*Seth gets a good tug down the straight, moves out of draft far to early therefore not seen as a position fight,

*Both car's turn in and meet in the middle, resulting in contact,

*Seth lift's off to allow Tyler to regain control of his car,

*It appear's as if Tyler has control over the car, Seth accelerates,

*Tires being dirty Tyler slides again, Seth makes further contact with Tyler due to Tyler being all over the place, both cars leave the circuit,

*Seth rejoins in front of Tyler, racing continues,

Now this video of Seth's shows everything, apart from what Tyler's on screen Data show's,

Seth, if you could upload the same incident but from Tyler's car looking back I will pass fair judgement, as I wish to see Tyler's brake/ Throttle applications,

 

[phil bell]

I think that's more a racing incident then anything, you waited several times for him to get his act together, to suffer a penalty for someone else's panic attack and getting on the accelerator with dirty tires and losing control of the car further down the road, but here's a dot point to how I'm deciphering it,

*Seth gets a good tug down the straight, moves out of draft far to early therefore not seen as a position fight,

*Both car's turn in and meet in the middle, resulting in contact,

*Seth lift's off to allow Tyler to regain control of his car,

*It appear's as if Tyler has control over the car, Seth accelerates,

*Tires being dirty Tyler slides again, Seth makes further contact with Tyler due to Tyler being all over the place, both cars leave the circuit,

*Seth rejoins in front of Tyler, racing continues,

I read it the same too. Just a racing incident, Tyler should have checked his mirrors (though he did seem to turn in early imo...) and Seth was braking late for his tire condition. When the initial contact was recovered and Seth was behind, that was ok, he waited. Then Tyler lost control multiple times and took them both off track which cost the brunt of the time they lost...

I dont agree with Seth on some (well actually more than some ) stuff and we have come together before too but I dont think his actions deserve a penalty.

 

[joetruckv8]

We stated that front fender has right away, and Tyler had a fender and then some going into the parabolic. Tyler being in front has the right to square the turn off and accelerate down the straight. As stated in this op some pages back at Nurburg we had the same issue with 2 drivers and the stewards agreed that its the following cars duty not to make contact with the leading car even tho the leading car chooses to apex down to take the straight away that way. But did Seth hit Tyler is not the issue, the issue is Seth giving Tyler time to re take his current position back, which he did but do to Tyler spinning the tires several times Seth ended up going into the pits ahead of Tyler. The question is how long does a driver wait before he just takes the position back which is what happen when Seth made it into the pits before Tyler? I can't check the tapes tonight but ill go over them again with all the stewards for a final decision again.

 

[TDZdave]

My thought's are, and its seen clear that Seth is under the assumption that Tyler had control of the vehicle before resuming, Therefore my opinion is Seth waited long enough, Its therefore left up to Tyler to get going in due manor, If Seth was punching him the back and caused the second spin then I would agree that the penalty fit's,
Its my opinion that Seth did the right thing, he allowed Tyler to get going, but through rushing it he made a mistake that put him off the track, so therefore I believe Seth is completely in the right of coming out the corner, no one should be penalized for incidents like that,

 

[joetruckv8]

My thought's are, and its seen clear that Seth is under the assumption that Tyler had control of the vehicle before resuming, Therefore my opinion is Seth waited long enough, Its therefore left up to Tyler to get going in due manor, If Seth was punching him the back and caused the second spin then I would agree that the penalty fit's,
Its my opinion that Seth did the right thing, he allowed Tyler to get going, but through rushing it he made a mistake that put him off the track, so therefore I believe Seth is completely in the right of coming out the corner, no one should be penalized for incidents like that,

Ok so that's 2 in favor of Seth with Zach also in the same boat with you Dave. 2 votes for Seth's favor. Can anyone else give there opinion on this very unusual situation since the replays are aired on the op. I'll be sending pm to Phil, Cam, and Alefinas well.

 

[phil bell]

Incase it's not clear, make that 3, me and TDZ saying exactly the same thing.

 

[TDZdave]

Its only the fact that it was presumed that Tyler had control of his car to get going again, and the replay shows it was him getting anxious and spinning again,

 

[freshseth83]

That's what I thought. I also thought he'd take the parabolica the same way he did previous laps. Stick to the outside or 'your line'. I felt he turned into me, trying to block my momentum from going up the inside. I don't know his intentions, but I figured going to the right was a clue that I was going to stay to the inside. I was definitely slowed enough for the turn. I ran high downforce just for that reason, better braking.

 

[SkengD]

Its an unfortunate racing incident , i think no penalties should be given to either driver

 

[TDZdave]

well.... you know what thought did don't you?

 

[ZachAK47]

The issue isn't the incident itself. That's a minor racing incident.

But whatever way you look at it, Seth is behind Tyler entering the corner, and ahead of him exiting the corner.

Yes there's the whole thing about how long should you wait etc, but if contact wasn't made he wouldn't have needed too wait.

A 25s (or whatever it was) was abit steep, a 5s penalty, as stated in the OP would've been more appropriate.

Also how can we define how long to wait? There's differing amounts of run off areas, if the person is backwards, if the rest of the field is coming so it's unsafe to renter track....
IMO you should wait as long as it takes and then not attempt to overtake until after the 1st corner.

Edit: while this is not the responsibility of Tyler, if he'd have checked the rear view mirror before turning in he'd have seen Seth on the inside, and could've left room. But this isn't the responsibility of the lead driver with a distance that great.
Say I'm being picky, but Pepsi went way too deep at the rattafilio chicane, (dive bombing 3 cars) and I saw him and waited before turning in, otherwise wouldve been a nasty crash

 

[freshseth83]

I don't think it's being picky Zack. I think that being consistent is what's missing in this case. I can show you his lines before in the previous laps at the same turn and they didn't involve him 'closing the door'. If someone has a huge run on you and they move over, they're obviously trying to keep away from you. I was too far back to attempt a pass. So I moved to the inside line to let him have his outside line as to not bump into him with so much draft. Staying behind him longer would have made my braking distance too great. So I jumped out from behind him expecting him to stay outside like he'd been doing. I didn't misjudge the turn, I was in the process of turning while braking. I just didn't think he'd come back inside judging from the previous laps. The battle wasn't all of a sudden. It'd been going on for 3 laps! So the logical thinking is he knew I was there with him. I can't explain his actions. I'm just showing my actions and why I did what I did. I waited for him, and he took me off track while I thought he had got back going. So we both get back on track and I went to the left because he was on the right coming out of the dirt. You can't fault me for trying to avoid him. I only pit because I figured he was staying out. Am I suppose to stop for him again? I waited, got hit. Thought he got going again, went to the left (again) and got hit. I go to the pits, and got hit (from behind) because he entered too fast, that's why I came out so far ahead because he got reset going into the pits.

 

[phil bell]

Seth waited after the contact and got run off the road into the gravel 2-3 times by an out of control Lexus. I don't think there should be any penalty imposed if a driver takes SO long to gather it up.

The initial contact was as I mentioned before, racing incident, nothing wrong as he waited and was behind.

And for waiting he gets punted in the gravel.

If I was him I'd be unhappy as well.

Lets be reasonable guys.

 

[ZachAK47]

I don't think it's being picky Zack. I think that being consistent is what's missing in this case. I can show you his lines before in the previous laps at the same turn and they didn't involve him 'closing the door'. If someone has a huge run on you and they move over, they're obviously trying to keep away from you. I was too far back to attempt a pass. So I moved to the inside line to let him have his outside line as to not bump into him with so much draft. Staying behind him longer would have made my braking distance too great. So I jumped out from behind him expecting him to stay outside like he'd been doing. I didn't misjudge the turn, I was in the process of turning while braking. I just didn't think he'd come back inside judging from the previous laps. The battle wasn't all of a sudden. It'd been going on for 3 laps! So the logical thinking is he knew I was there with him. I can't explain his actions. I'm just showing my actions and why I did what I did. I waited for him, and he took me off track while I thought he had got back going. So we both get back on track and I went to the left because he was on the right coming out of the dirt. You can't fault me for trying to avoid him. I only pit because I figured he was staying out. Am I suppose to stop for him again? I waited, got hit. Thought he got going again, went to the left (again) and got hit. I go to the pits, and got hit (from behind) because he entered too fast, that's why I came out so far ahead because he got reset going into the pits.

I'll review the previous laps. If its true and his line does change that lap then we'll have to reassess it.

Note to other stewards- in future can we ask the parties involved to explain what happened from their view? We look at it from a very data biased perspective which doesnt always give us the full story...

 

[TDZdave]

I cant see how 16 people in a NASCAR room can give each other space and run 2-3 lanes 2-3 wide 5 cars long, everybody in that situation needs to be aware of everyone around you, personally, if you cant be bothered to monitor track position with 1 car following you then you can only expect to get hit eventually,

 

[ZachAK47]

I cant see how 16 people in a NASCAR room can give each other space and run 2-3 lanes 2-3 wide 5 cars long, everybody in that situation needs to be aware of everyone around you, personally, if you cant be bothered to monitor track position with 1 car following you then you can only expect to get hit eventually,

Haha precisely why when I first started racing online I did NASCAR. Take no prisoners there, a slight bump and you're kicked soon as race is over.
I had like 8 months of NASCAR experience before joining a league, just so I was aware of car perameters and how to read and react to whats going on ahead and behind

 

[TDZdave]

agreed, but I continually got kicked because of my flag, so I joined dirty/ leader take out rooms, learning how to work with 3 or 4 cars to catch up, always being aware of what is happening around you etc, its a lot to take in, but I'm a far better road racer because of it,

 

[phil bell]

I just dont want to crash into anybody so I try to emphasize situational awareness.
Its like me and RoadRunner at Monza, we went everyewhere side by side with just enough room to spare.

 

[TDZdave]

I'm online for around 4 hours if anyone wants to qualify,

 

[TylerJDallas]

This replay view is very one sided. All I want to do is make it clear that he caused the incident. I've been penalized for the exact same issue in two races due to inexperience. Seth being the founder of so many racing leagues should know better on this one.

Therefore rather than displaying to the entire forum a single view allow me to retort with my own series of replays.

To address the "turning in" accusation. My car was balanced on it's grip levels. I was turning in at the same rate of turn from my braking point to the apex and back on the gas as he hit me. If you look at the game's graphic depiction of the racing line, simulating rubber and oil, I was taking the normal racing line. If you're on the inside of the racing line BEFORE you're along side then yeah it seems the other driver is "turning in" on you. Seth see's it this way because he thinks he was "along side of me" This was not a "tap" either. He had about 12MPH coming down on the draft. On dirty tires at that low grip high speed apex... just about anyone would have lit up the tires when unexpectedly hit on the inner REAR bumper NOT along side of me. I did check my mirrors... used my dpad down button to check his position at 200m and again dpad right at 150m to see if he was along side (this is a new skill for me).

When I came off the inner wall and hit Seth sending us into the gravel I own up to that. With more experience I'm starting to understand the torque/grip levels at low speed on hot tires. Coming off the gravel, yes, I didn't have control of my car b/c I was a bit anxious and tee'd off - lesson learned... easy on the gas when rejoining track kid.

I'm sure Seth had every intention to stop and wait for me. My ability not to control my car after the initial incident Seth created really made that choice for him and he should not be penalized for entering the pits ahead of me. Mostly I just want recognition that the trigger for these events was because Seth did hit me from behind, not along side of me, due to his lack of control in the draft.

Replays:

Seth Cam

Tyler Rear Cam

 

[alefin]

Thanks for making your case, everyone. We're in the process of discussing the appeal.

 

[TylerJDallas]

I just realized the events from this race really made the championship title even closer between Zach and Phil.

 

[TDZdave]

Its very one sided because it is one sided, If Seth or any other driver pulls out of the draft that early they are not aiming to overtake you, they are just simply gaining clean air, and trust me if Seth was trying/ struggling to overtake you, you would feel like a puppet with a hand in your 🤬, He really becomes a pest in that manor, usually always ends up with me watch my mirror 50 metre's into a braking zone and him gaining a position, I believe Seth when he say's he wasn't planning to overtake,

but Tyler you are entitled to adjust your line as you see fit, the one thing I did notice though is you were at around 90% throttle right up until you braked, regardless of your turn in point had you been on 100% throttle Seth may have missed you by fractions and we wouldn't be cleaning this mess,

This combined with Seth's account of what happened really does balance out, Tyler possibly being 4-5MPH down on the straight then he usually would may have caused the car to slow down faster thus turning in earlier, simple math really,

This is very much a racing incident, outside of running off the track himself or really clouting you there is nothing more Seth could do, He pulled out of the draft to slow down, he then attacks his apex of the corner but your there too, He is already out of the draft and hard on the brakes,

If it was me, knowing I couldn't stop in time I would have tried to hit your rear as square as possible, it would have jolted you around, and possibly spun you, but in all seriousness in these situation's all you can do is brace yourself,

Yes Seth is to blame too, as he "thought" you would take the same line, and you didn't, for what ever reason, and well you know what Thought did? He thought he farted but he 🤬 himself,

 

[TylerJDallas]

Thanks Dave, that gives me a better understanding of how to move forward. Yes, he is a pest! Which is a compliment. He was slowing my lap times down by at least .5-1.5 seconds. It's like a little orange jack russell terrier trying to bite your ankles every lap.

 

[SkengD]

Sometimes if a guy following me is slowing me down i let them go by and just follow , these races are long and its all about good race pace . This depends on the lap in the race ofcourse .

Battling only slows you down but what would racing be without battles .

 

[TylerJDallas]

Sometimes if a guy following me is slowing me down i let them go by and just follow , these races are long and its all about good race pace . This depends on the lap in the race ofcourse .

Battling only slows you down but what would racing be without battles .

Very true! And I knew this... I should have settled for 3rd and hoped for a mistake or a last lap pass. Instead I'm mid pack like every other race!

 

[TylerJDallas]

but Tyler you are entitled to adjust your line as you see fit, the one thing I did notice though is you were at around 90% throttle right up until you braked, regardless of your turn in point had you been on 100% throttle Seth may have missed you by fractions and we wouldn't be cleaning this mess

So, I have some confusion about this. The other day Zach and I were practicing defending and overtaking. Coming out of T1 Hairpin at Spa he was forced to go off track because I didn't leave him a cars width between me and the rumble strip. I didn't do it on purpose I just felt like that was my natural line to keep traction. How is adjusting my line as I see fit, blocking, and using my normal racing line all fall into place without causing a ruckus?

I've got the drafting thing figured out. I haven't had one of those incidents since Nurburgring GP. Up until recently I haven't had to deal with other cars much because I was too slow.

 

[RodeRuner1967]

So, I have some confusion about this. The other day Zach and I were practicing defending and overtaking. Coming out of T1 Hairpin at Spa he was forced to go off track because I didn't leave him a cars width between me and the rumble strip. I didn't do it on purpose I just felt like that was my natural line to keep traction. How is adjusting my line as I see fit, blocking, and using my normal racing line all fall into place without causing a ruckus?

I've got the drafting thing figured out. I haven't had one of those incidents since Nurburgring GP. Up until recently I haven't had to deal with other cars much because I was too slow.

You didn't give Zach enough room causing him to go wide.

You have to adjust your racing line all the time when racing against others. You have to know where the other racer is at all times. That is why I race where I can see my entire car. I can see all around me. The other views in the game block your surroundings.
Seth should have slowed down a tad and you shouldn't have moved over like that. I see both at fault after watching both of the replays that Tyler put up.

 

[freshseth83]

We were racing hard for a few laps, so I thought he'd go for the normal line, which is out then in. Go deep into parabolica then come out along the edge. You hold more speed that way. I went inside because that's how I take that turn. I cut the inside curbing and swing out instead of out then in. The downforce I had let me do that without clipping the dirt on the outside. Plus the garaiya is MR so it has that good turn in!