- 17,153
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Bill Auberlen's BMW V12 LMR Flipped at PLM in 2000 as well
Le Mans Hypercars Confirmed: FIA and ACO Agree New Rules for 2020
- Thread starter GTPNewsWire
- 94 comments
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These new Hypercar’s aren’t road cars. They are purpose built prototypes with design freedom to make them look like an OEM’s road car.
Glickenhaus are confirmed for the new class. Toyota are expected to announce their program at their motorsport awards show. Aston Martin are also believed to be going ahead. Other manufacturers and privateers are said to have programs underway. But it all will have cars ready for season one.
Audi and BMW are interested in hydrogen which is set to be introduced around 2025. Although it’s been said both could enter conventional powered cars beforehand.
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- 11,251
- Sweden
- eran0004
Probably a way to reduce development costs. I imagine it’s more expensive to let ICE and electric motors share the same drivetrain.
I wonder if this means that Nissan could basically just enter their LMP1 in reverse? Perhaps it would meet the new aerodynamic regulations in that configuration
- 6,281
- Ottawa
- Pyano1132
Bugatti, where you at?
- 1,633
- Mass UTC-5
- HugoStiglitz_420 and GTP_HugoStiglitz
Oh great, the FIA ruins another one of the best motosports.
Why not have both? I like the hypercars but I'm so sick of the FIA regulating great cars out of existence. It's already bad enough they want to make electric race cars as a BS publicity stunt when if they really cared about the environment they'd use electric trucks to transport race teams and leave the race cars alone but no, that's way too expensive. Bunch of idiots.
I almost miss Bellestre's corruption compared to what these idiots are doing to motorsport.
Why not have both? I like the hypercars but I'm so sick of the FIA regulating great cars out of existence. It's already bad enough they want to make electric race cars as a BS publicity stunt when if they really cared about the environment they'd use electric trucks to transport race teams and leave the race cars alone but no, that's way too expensive. Bunch of idiots.
I almost miss Bellestre's corruption compared to what these idiots are doing to motorsport.
- 2,658
- Somewhere in the cloud
- GTP_Dutchy
- 22,551
- Arizona
- HamiltonMP427
- 2,007
- WNC
- TRLWNC
Of all the stupid ideas... This will lead to ONE manufacturer per year being capable of winning....
This has happened pretty well every time.
Can Am, IMSA, F-1, etc.
Did we watch the same races? The only LMGTP car I remember flipping due to poor aerodynamics was the Mercedes CLR. Unless the last 20 years of Indycar were classified as LMGTP...
The reason all LMP cars the holes over the front wheels is to prevent blow-overs like these.
I'm sure that there will be required vents of some kind.
- 1,561
- United States
I'm a little confused by the statements that this is FIA "ruining" a motorsport?
LMP1 was dying a quick death...as do many top level series when they become stagnant or way too damn expensive. It was almost dumb luck we managed to witness a few years of three top level manufacturers willing to compete at the LMP1 Hybrid level. We spent many years of the past 15 with one major competitor....with almost everyone else not considering it worthwhile to try to take the LeMans crown from Audi. Some people actually call it "the Audi effect".
The FIA/ACO don't care about hybrid systems...they don't care about environmental nonsense, but they cannot get major manufacturers to partake without it. There are several manufacturers who only jump in every 5-6 years when the tech is revised. Now, sure the FIA will take advantage of that and say "oh, look, we're doing hybrids!" and it helps them defend motorsport to politicians etc. Deep down they don't care, but they need that tech to "sell" motorsport to a number of major manufacturers. In turn the motorsport arms of these major manufacturers need some of that excuse to take back to their accountants to justify dumping 20+ million dollars/euros into a LeMans/WEC effort.
I think a lot of people still imagine we can recreate the 60's and 70's with major manufacturers handing budgets to wild engineers and ebullient race team managers and everyone will just bask in the glory of motorsport. Despite being in a phenomenal time for motor racing, major manufacturer investment in something like an LMP1 program is continually decreasing. It's incredibly difficult for most motorsport organizations to attract major manufacturers that they need to help budget their own series.
The FIA/ACO know damn well they have to find a way to attract money to replace the big Audi/Toyota/Porsche money that came with those teams. A lot of manufacturers have different interests in motorsport. The new hypercar series (on paper, at least) reduces costs, provides a hybrid test-bed and advertising, might allow enough aesthetics to showcase genuine hypercars for the road, etc. This isn't the FIA/ACO running around trying to ruin something - the thing they had was falling apart financially.
Will it work? Who knows. But we can hope for the best.
LMP1 was dying a quick death...as do many top level series when they become stagnant or way too damn expensive. It was almost dumb luck we managed to witness a few years of three top level manufacturers willing to compete at the LMP1 Hybrid level. We spent many years of the past 15 with one major competitor....with almost everyone else not considering it worthwhile to try to take the LeMans crown from Audi. Some people actually call it "the Audi effect".
The FIA/ACO don't care about hybrid systems...they don't care about environmental nonsense, but they cannot get major manufacturers to partake without it. There are several manufacturers who only jump in every 5-6 years when the tech is revised. Now, sure the FIA will take advantage of that and say "oh, look, we're doing hybrids!" and it helps them defend motorsport to politicians etc. Deep down they don't care, but they need that tech to "sell" motorsport to a number of major manufacturers. In turn the motorsport arms of these major manufacturers need some of that excuse to take back to their accountants to justify dumping 20+ million dollars/euros into a LeMans/WEC effort.
I think a lot of people still imagine we can recreate the 60's and 70's with major manufacturers handing budgets to wild engineers and ebullient race team managers and everyone will just bask in the glory of motorsport. Despite being in a phenomenal time for motor racing, major manufacturer investment in something like an LMP1 program is continually decreasing. It's incredibly difficult for most motorsport organizations to attract major manufacturers that they need to help budget their own series.
The FIA/ACO know damn well they have to find a way to attract money to replace the big Audi/Toyota/Porsche money that came with those teams. A lot of manufacturers have different interests in motorsport. The new hypercar series (on paper, at least) reduces costs, provides a hybrid test-bed and advertising, might allow enough aesthetics to showcase genuine hypercars for the road, etc. This isn't the FIA/ACO running around trying to ruin something - the thing they had was falling apart financially.
Will it work? Who knows. But we can hope for the best.
- 51,151
- Australia
- SpacedustDaddy
I tell you, suddenly, Vision GT cars make a lot of sense.
- 22,551
- Arizona
- HamiltonMP427
- 318
- Hungary
I'm afraid of these strict rules but one can hope for a great future. I like the current LMP1s, but on the other hand my favourite era is when Group C cars raced against each other, that was so epic.
- 1,561
- United States
Yep, but I think that's the balance they're trying to figure out.
Do you do what F1 does...wide restrictions, nearly unlimited budgets and hope you get one or two teams willing to throw the world at the series, or do you minimize advantages, budgets, etc. in the hopes of attractive more teams (and thus producing more interesting racing).
Do you do what F1 does...wide restrictions, nearly unlimited budgets and hope you get one or two teams willing to throw the world at the series, or do you minimize advantages, budgets, etc. in the hopes of attractive more teams (and thus producing more interesting racing).
- 2,007
- WNC
- TRLWNC
This is part of why I like Indy car and formula e. Yes, they are spec vehicles to a major extent, but the racing is incredible!
- 1,561
- United States
I'm in the same boat...I'll take BOP all day long as I'm a consumer and I'm more interested in better racing than I am super-racing tech displays. I also prefer BOP based stuff because you can have far more variety in "types" of cars (engine layout, etc.) be competitive. However, loads of people hate BOP and think it should be removed from series, which "seems" logical until you run into the fact that fewer and fewer teams/manufacturers want to invest as tech and cost goes up.
For instance, I think IMSA racing is arguably the best thing going right now, so I'd take that over a single manufacturer taking LeMans anyday. It sounds like the ACO is trying to do BOP without doing BOP for the Hypercars (with limited downforce, minimum drag levels, etc.)
For instance, I think IMSA racing is arguably the best thing going right now, so I'd take that over a single manufacturer taking LeMans anyday. It sounds like the ACO is trying to do BOP without doing BOP for the Hypercars (with limited downforce, minimum drag levels, etc.)
- 22,551
- Arizona
- HamiltonMP427
Okay that's great and all but FIA through Sportscars has proven many times over in the past that you can have different manufactures of different mechanical design and ways of going about team operation, being equivalent. There has been plenty of close battles with only slight needs for BoP. This is not Indy where it makes sense to run spec cars for the most part. This is a prototype class and series where R&D and future tech come to be used and further expanded, limiting that is an issue I have with this and many should have. If you're purely in it for "I want to see every series of racing be close battles..." then I start to not really see what the point is of all the multiple series.
Why not have one spec global series that has close racing and then eliminate most of the others?
- 2,007
- WNC
- TRLWNC
I agree. I was not meaning to sound like it wasn't a positive, I was just stating that it's very difficult to perform a decent BoP.
Either way, we shall see.
Either way, we shall see.
- 22,551
- Arizona
- HamiltonMP427
Okay I see, well in that case I'd say the reason it seems difficult many times in my opinion is because the FIA is vague or open with wording of regs and thus team manipulate that to their benefit. So what seemed to be well calculated and thought out regs among different machines but still being balanced soon becomes something else. It gets worse when they allow waivers too.
- 5,205
- Nicest part of hell
I wonder if the lower downforce regulations would put those new GT1 cars into the same lap time category as Super GT 500 on circuits other than high speed tracks like Spa and Le Mans. Those new supercars may be outclassed by already existing race cars with a little less engine power but much more down force.
Other than that, it sure sounds interesting. I loved LMP1 but even I have to admit that its time for a change now .
Other than that, it sure sounds interesting. I loved LMP1 but even I have to admit that its time for a change now .
- 51,151
- Australia
- SpacedustDaddy
I'm speaking on how they look(like in the tweet above). I haven't followed the early announcements of the changes. Unless certain manufacturers just made VGT cars, that happen to look like, possible, new regulation cars, for a mock Gr.1(LMP) category. Could be pure coincidence. However, some look like they could be concepts for the new regulations.
If hyper cars wind up looking more like the Mazda LM55, than the Bugatti VGT, I'm not bothered either way.
- 284
- London
- azzabry86
My assumption is that the halo models from various manufacturers will now debut at Le Mans. Can we expect to see race spec versions of the following?
Aston Martin Valkyrie
AMG Mercedes Project One
McLaren Senna
Toyota’s recent Gazoo concept?
An XX’d La Ferrari?
Porsche 918 even?
Even half of that field makes for a fascinating pack of racers. Excited for 2020 either way, a true return to genuine sports car racing! I’ve always loved how the McLaren F1 GTR could literally drive to Le Mans from Woking, race, and then return home.
Say what you will, but let’s be honest the latest breed of LMP1s were hardly the prettiest. 919 vs a 911 GT1? No contest!
Aston Martin Valkyrie
AMG Mercedes Project One
McLaren Senna
Toyota’s recent Gazoo concept?
An XX’d La Ferrari?
Porsche 918 even?
Even half of that field makes for a fascinating pack of racers. Excited for 2020 either way, a true return to genuine sports car racing! I’ve always loved how the McLaren F1 GTR could literally drive to Le Mans from Woking, race, and then return home.
Say what you will, but let’s be honest the latest breed of LMP1s were hardly the prettiest. 919 vs a 911 GT1? No contest!
- 3,264
- Salt Lake City,
I posted this in the gr super sport thread but this video was from January and shows a working prototype of the car testing at Fuji. Looks like a good thing if the cars are going to be low long and wide like this thing.
The rules say that you can use a production engine/hybrid system as long as 100 examples are produced. Some of the rules are relaxed on engine features if you are running a production unit instead of a bespoke race engine as well.
The rules say that you can use a production engine/hybrid system as long as 100 examples are produced. Some of the rules are relaxed on engine features if you are running a production unit instead of a bespoke race engine as well.
- 22,551
- Arizona
- HamiltonMP427
Or the FIA took the liberty to shape the car they had in mind to the current market of Hyper Cars as a "easy" way to get perspective manufactures to join. Since all the VGT you are thinking of came before the regs even got to the point of "this is what the cars we have in mind could look like", which was first seen this year at LM, again I'd stress the FIA more than likely catered to what was seen and what Audi and Toyota guided them with. Then did the rest of it on their own, as far as the more fine tooth regs go.
LM55 doesn't look like a car from the Hyper rules anyways, it looks like a car that would have raced in P1 so not sure how you've come to compare it to the Bugatti which does look more in line with the Hyper Car/Class rules.
Considering only one of those manufactures was at the meetings, I'd easily say nope. Also why would any of these manufactures need to join or want to? More than half of those you listed have F1 experience and are current F1 affiliated teams, that's their selling point. Porsche might come back but we'd probably see Audi before that, and there are a couple manufactures interested due to the hydrogen combustion engine angle down the road a couple years after these rules settle in.
So while you're excited, which is great for you, I think reality should be echoed a bit before getting hyped on said package. When only two manufactures see it through to the point the FIA/ACO said these were the rules for 2020 on, that is a worry. When those two manufactures are the same two that have been a dominating threat in the WEC for the past 5-6 years, more so worrying. As for the last part it's subjective really. The TS040 looked like a great race car in it's own right and so did the initial R18, even compared to the likes of the 90s and 80s machines. Hard to compare eras when they are clearly geared in different directions especially looks wise.
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- 51,151
- Australia
- SpacedustDaddy
That's fine, but I'm not comparing the two cars. I've said if the hyper cars don't look like the Bugatti(closer to a road car), I don't mind if they look like the LM55(closer to an LMP).
The Gazoo concept Trustjab posted, looks like it's between the two. A bit GT and a bit LMP. Whether Toyota do or do not plan to build upon that concept, we'll see.
- 1,502
- Germany
"to prevent an expensive development race"
the expensive race actually gave us the last 4 years of LMP1 racing.
If i want everything as close as possible i watch DTM/Supercars.
the good thing though - 20 million isnt alot of money for most manufacturers so this might help get them involved, but for privateers thats way too much and 3 million for the engines are enough to race an entire Supercars Season
the expensive race actually gave us the last 4 years of LMP1 racing.
If i want everything as close as possible i watch DTM/Supercars.
the good thing though - 20 million isnt alot of money for most manufacturers so this might help get them involved, but for privateers thats way too much and 3 million for the engines are enough to race an entire Supercars Season
- 22,551
- Arizona
- HamiltonMP427
And what I'm saying is the LM55 was a P1 in mind design, that's dead now. It's not going to happen. The Bugatti is more in line with what could happen, but again my point was to stress that the FIA/ACO purposely looked at cars like that and went this direction with the rules.
You mean the same concept you posted on in the actual thread it occupies on this forum? A test car in a video from almost a year ago, doesn't give us much insight really, especially considering how likely it has changed, and the car it's based on doesn't look like an P1. In fact as much as it pains me to say it, the car Trustjab posted looks more like a GTP (R390 even) than any P1 from recent history.
- 3,264
- Salt Lake City,
I liked the fact that Audi and Porsche fought each other but they were spending 200 million dollars each. Nissan was going to be there but they were so far away in budget there was no use continuing. Toyota stayed on because of the hybrid and because they can do 90% of the car in-house at TMG.
- 51,151
- Australia
- SpacedustDaddy
I got all that. It was a bit of jest in my first VGT post.
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