Lets Just Come Out and Say It...

[Keef]

Actually, I have to agree with Enzo_Guy. The Impreza/WRX/STi lot are much better cars in general than a Miata ever will be.

I never said I wanted to Miata because it's good. I said I wanted a Miata because it's good...

The RX7 has made me realize that I've grown up enough in the past couple years to where I don't want to deal with an impractical sports car on a daily basis. At the time I didn't realize what a gem my Civic really was. The E30 I want is like that, basically a rear-wheel drive Civic. But the RX7? Even a Miata? Fun, yes. Cool, yes. Great on the track, yes. But not good at life in general.

If you want one car that does everything, a WRX is what you're looking for. Seriously. Face is Brad, at the moment you're not a "car guy" in the sense that you enjoy sacrificing all things practical in the pursuit of driving twisty roads. You can take the chance on becoming one by getting the right car, a Miata, but you might get tired of it, and when you do you'll be looking for another car unless you can afford two.

The beauty of a WRX is that they can be had fairly cheap, are reasonably built cars, are reliable, the turbo ones are already pretty quick and can be done up a bit, they take well to the stance scene, they're AWD so will handle your winters just fine, they have back seats and doors, a proper trunk, etc etc. The only thing that could be a better car than a WRX is a Sportback. Beyond that, maybe an Outback, but then you lose your stick and tuning ability.

 

[Azuremen]

I think this is what you meant to say.


Don't take that last one seriously, all in good fun. 👍

Easy to work on my ass. Changing the spark plugs on a Boxer engine is probably the stupidest crap I've ever seen. And gas mileage is a joke. Along with the interior quality. And with the '08 up models, reliability is sketchy too.

Not to mention the typical owner is a frat guy with a sideways hat and a popped collar, calling you "bro" and talking about how nothing is better than a Turbo and AWD.

E36 M3 > any WRX in all of those fields. And won't make your boss think you are a hooligan.

 

[Eric.]

and with the '08 up models, reliability is sketchy too.

07+.

 

[Boz Mon]

I just wanted to address the space issue, and the snow issue. I'm 6'2" and I fit fine in the car. If you get one with cloth seats you will fit better than in a car with leather.

In the snow, I havent had any problems yet. I have driven in like 3 or 4 inches with my all seasons. You really just have to drive smart and not like a complete retard. Getting going, its a little slower than my Prelude was, but other than that, it goes through it just fine. You have to be ready for corners because the back will slide out on you, but it does it so perfectly and so elegantly that its very easy to control.

 

[McLaren]

How the hell did someone get 2 nitrous bottles & (what I'm guessing) a new fuel system as a solution to, "Good on gas"?

I agree with Azuremen on all counts.

 

[homeforsummer]

Not to mention the typical owner is a frat guy with a sideways hat and a popped collar, calling you "bro" and talking about how nothing is better than a Turbo and AWD.

We have that problem in the UK too, though mainly the owners wear their baseball caps backwards and drive like absolute male-genitalia. The main problem is you can pick early ones up from as little as £1k over here now so they've come within reach of a whole generation of chav yobbos who drive them like they stole them. In many cases, they probably have stolen them.

Not everyone of course. I've got a mate at work who has recently bought an imported lightweight Type RA and it's his pride and joy. It gets driven quickly, but not dangerously.

I agree with the general sentiment. An Impreza is probably more useable day to day, but they're awful on fuel, hideously expensive on insurance (it would cost me about 5 times as much to insure a pretty ropey Impreza Turbo than it would a perfect Mk1 MX5), and several steps down from a Miata on the awesomeness scale.

Also, Imprezas totally ceased being cool when we lost Burns and McRae. And even less cool when they pulled out of the WRC.

 

[Pupik]

After that, all else is just something you like because it's weird and unique, because there is hardly any task that can't be handled by that triumvirate of awesome cars.

Tsk tsk, Duke...go back and look at your original avatar and get back with me.

I was going to mention an Audi S4 wagon, but good luck finding one of those in the 'States.

 

[JKcreativeworks]

I think this is what you meant to say.

If you can add the evo to it i'll proudly agree!

pmsl@Azuremen, typical response of a M3 driver.

But really, people should try and drive an 4WD car in the snow/wet/rough conditions. Its like a world of difference, sure the mileage of my evo is ofcourse worse than a mx5/miata/etc but afterall a Evo is an enthusiasts car. The handling is raw, but its a hoot to drive! Even in ****** weather conditions.

 

[Keef]

Not to mention the typical owner is a frat guy with a sideways hat and a popped collar, calling you "bro" and talking about how nothing is better than a Turbo and AWD.

We get that, and your typical outdoorsman slash liberal college English professor. I generally prefer the WRX to the STi because it is spared the wing and looks less ridiculous.

E36 M3 > any WRX in all of those fields. And won't make your boss think you are a hooligan.

Except the snow. Fun, yes, but proficient? In comparison, hardly. Remember, Brad is from Michigan where people drive 90 in 4 inches of snow.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

Except the snow. Fun, yes, but proficient? In comparison, hardly. Remember, Brad is from Michigan where people drive 90 in 4 inches of snow.

Yet they do 20 under everywhere the instant it rains a bit.

 

[Tornado]

Subaru anything easy to work on?

 

[McLaren]

But really, people should try and drive an 4WD car in the snow/wet/rough conditions. Its like a world of difference, sure the mileage of my evo is ofcourse worse than a mx5/miata/etc but afterall a Evo is an enthusiasts car. The handling is raw, but its a hoot to drive! Even in ****** weather conditions.

I have to laugh when people act like 4WD/AWD somehow has this gigantic difference in wet/snowy conditions. Driver Skill>Drivetrain.

Anything can be driven in these conditions just fine, even a ZR1 or a Ferrari.

 

[reverand33]

I have to laugh when people act like 4WD/AWD somehow has this gigantic difference in wet/snowy conditions. Driver Skill>Drivetrain.

Anything can be driven in these conditions just fine, even a ZR1 or a Ferrari.

AH LOL, what are you talking about?!?!? oh i see, you live in texas. come up here to north dakota and the only ways a zr1 will be getting around is either towed or on a flatbed.

let see your rwd car do this
[Youtube]3eG_sD8yD40[/Youtube]

because this is rwd in snow (notice its flat?)
[Youtube]3g73XT6yQhs[/Youtube]

stay in texas, this is what we are faced with on occasion. my fwd has issues sometimes, but not my old audi.

 

[CodeRedR51]

I drove my Miata through two winters with no problems at all, on sporty all season tires.

 

[nobuffalo]

I have to laugh when people act like 4WD/AWD somehow has this gigantic difference in wet/snowy conditions. Driver Skill>Drivetrain.

Anything can be driven in these conditions just fine, even a ZR1 or a Ferrari.

I agree Driver skill may be more important, but as far as mobility in the snow, AWD beats RWD hands down. My Camry absolutely got it in the snow, I was shocked. It got around far better with much more control than any fwd or rwd/mr car i've ever driven, and the tires weren't necessarily any better. Hills are where AWD shines. I was able to pull my freinds 626 up a fairly steep hill in rougly 6 inches of snow, easy, he was going nowhere on his own. We were both wowed. With good power distribution, you have twice the traction, and it's much more balanced. Same driver skill, different drivetrains=gigantic difference.

Rain, my camry had 115hp, there was no way it was breaking traction in the rain...

Note, I have only ever driven one AWD car, so my claim can only be based on that one.

 

[McLaren]

AH LOL, what are you talking about?!?!? oh i see, you live in texas. come up here to north dakota and the only ways a zr1 will be getting around is either towed or on a flatbed.

All cars driven by their owners during the winter weather with proper tires.

let see your rwd car do this
[Youtube]3eG_sD8yD40[/Youtube]

because this is rwd in snow (notice its flat?)
[Youtube]3g73XT6yQhs[/Youtube]

You get a big FAIL for posting videos that only suit your argument.

BRB, searching YT.



Like Lamborghini, Ferrari offers courses on how to drive these cars properly in such conditions.

I agree Driver skill may be more important, but as far as mobility in the snow, AWD beats RWD hands down.

I'm not saying it doesn't. However, the people who believe that it is the only answer to snow are skewed. RWD/FWD cars are capable as well (note that I said "are", not "are as").

The main reason I laugh is because these are the same people who drive an AWD car a few times & then get the wrong impression that it can handle anything and end up making these mistakes.

Again, I realize that in the winter, AWD is more suited, but if you're smart & can handle your car correctly, you can drive a RWD or FWD car in the same conditions. As with the video above, Lamborghini & Ferrari have offered classes for such conditions for a reason.

I believe Azure can shed light on this even more as he has driven his BMW & his MR-S in the snow.

 

[Tornado]

When driving in the winter, I barely ever enable AWD. It really doesn't make that much of a difference if you know what you are doing, and as McLaren said, it won't save you from doing stupid things.

 

[nobuffalo]

I have to laugh when people act like 4WD/AWD somehow has this gigantic difference in wet/snowy conditions. Driver Skill>Drivetrain.

In my experience it does make a big difference, please don't laugh at me.

You get a big FAIL for posting videos that only suit your argument.

Didn't you kinda do the same thing...

I'm not saying it doesn't. However, the people who believe that it is the only answer to snow are skewed. RWD/FWD cars are capable as well (note that I said "are", not "are as").

They may be skewed, but it may be "their" only answer to the snow.

Again, I realize that in the winter, AWD is more suited, but if you're smart & can handle your car correctly, you can drive a RWD or FWD car in the same conditions.

This contradicts the previous comment a bit, here you're saying they "are as". In the same conditions, my sisters camry would not make it up the hill my camry could, therefore I couldn't drive it in the same conditions.

I believe Azure can shed light on this even more as he has driven his BMW & his MR-S in the snow.

I have driven FWD corollas, RWD corollas, FWD celicas, RWD celicas, AWD celicas(doesn't really count, blow head gasket ), FWD camrys, AWD camrys, and MR2s in the snow. I feel I have driven a decent variety to make my assumptions. All those cars had all-season tires, but I can only say they where in similar condition, so...

The second video you posted... 👍

I think we agree for the most post, I just felt the urge to argue for some reason. We are human after all! My apologies for not being good at the multi-quote thing.

 

[Keef]

All-wheel drive plus proper snow tires equals force to be reckoned with, no matter the ground clearance. I have experienced this, and though I have driven both my FWD Civic and RWD RX7 on the best snow tires on the market through snow up to 6 inches deep and frozen on top and am proficient to the best of the car's severely hindered ability to go at all, there is no substitute for all wheel drive when it comes to accelerating.

Thanks to my cousin's Wagovan and it's "Super Low" granny gear and four-wheel parking brake, climbing steep snow-covered hills and parking on them is a non-event. When he drove it into a hidden snow-filled ditch I started dialing a tow truck, but the damn thing pulled itself out before they answered the phone.

An all-wheel drive car on normal tires would lose a race to my RX7 with snow tires on soft snow, packed snow, ice, whatever. Any car at all with normal tires in the snow is a joke.

My point is that anything will go in snow with snow tires, but AWD cars do it twice as easily.

 

[McLaren]

In my experience it does make a big difference, please don't laugh at me.

As long as you don't believe it is the end all, be all way to drive in the snow, I won't.

Didn't you kinda do the same thing...

I did in jest. Did you read the part where said, "BRB searching YT"?

They may be skewed, but it may be "their" only answer to the snow.

That doesn't mean they should rule out other vehicles' capabilities. My only answer to snow & ice is RWD & FWD. They've suited me fine for the 3 days of the year where we actually get freak snow, but I wouldn't turn away an AWD.

This contradicts the previous comment a bit, here you're saying they "are as". In the same conditions, my sisters camry would not make it up the hill my camry could, therefore I couldn't drive it in the same conditions.

I'm not.

Being as capable and being able to be driven in the same conditions is not the same thing. A Subaru & a Ferrari can be driven in the same conditions, conditions meaning weather. The Subaru will be far more capable, but with a good driver, the Ferrari can get around without too much trouble.

I have driven FWD corollas, RWD corollas, FWD celicas, RWD celicas, AWD celicas(doesn't really count, blow head gasket ), FWD camrys, AWD camrys, and MR2s in the snow. I feel I have driven a decent variety to make my assumptions. All those cars had all-season tires, but I can only say they where in similar condition, so...

I don't want to sound like an ass, but most of the Toyotas you listed would naturally do a lot better with AWD.

But I'm talking more in terms of sports cars' capabilities, cars than are generally seen as anything but snow-capable.

 

[niky]

You're all wrong. FWD rocks in the snow.

And I talk from grand experience... having driven for 20 years... in the tropics.

Okay... FWD rocks in the mud... that is all.

Funny... I thought every car thread ended up as a Corvette versus 911 thread... not an Impreza versus Miata one.

 

[Boffin]

Miatas won't carry your junk. I love on campus uni accomodation about 6hrs away from my house, and I am actually buying a big car today with half the reason that it can hold all my junk that I have down there. I fear if I tried to mount it on an MX5 it'll look like those South African trucks carrying waaaay too much. If I lived in the city all year round I'd be all over them, buuut they aren't the most practical car in the world...

 

[BrutherSuperior]

Miatas won't carry your junk.

How much stuff do you have?

 

[Azuremen]

I agree with Azuremen on all counts.

Well this is a first in the history of GTP I think

pmsl@Azuremen, typical response of a M3 driver.

But really, people should try and drive an 4WD car in the snow/wet/rough conditions. Its like a world of difference, sure the mileage of my evo is ofcourse worse than a mx5/miata/etc but afterall a Evo is an enthusiasts car. The handling is raw, but its a hoot to drive! Even in ****** weather conditions.

Right, the WRX, STi, Outback Turbo, SVX, MazdaSpeed6, and numerous SUVs and such that I've driven in the snow give me no knowledge of how they drive in the snow.

My MR-S with cheap snow tires is worlds better in the snow than any AWD with "All-Season" tires on it. Maybe I have to understand my throttle isn't binary in the snow, but beyond that, vastly superior braking and turning and you actually know what the front tires are doing.

Honestly, tires are more important than drive train in inclement weather. Plus, AWD is generally very vague about what the front tires are doing when all the wheels start to spin. And yes, I have a good amount of experience drifting various cars in various conditions.

Except the snow. Fun, yes, but proficient? In comparison, hardly. Remember, Brad is from Michigan where people drive 90 in 4 inches of snow.

I drove an MR2 on RT-215s in 5 inches of Snow. Smart, not really. Possible, yes. The MR-S has done amazing in half a foot of snow, provided it isn't insanely wet, heavy snow.

With good power distribution, you have twice the traction, and it's much more balanced. Same driver skill, different drivetrains=gigantic difference.

Like I said above, tires. AWD versus 2WD with the same tires will always get up to speed faster, but it doesn't stop or turn any faster. Further, under power in a slide, it is very hard to sort out what the tires are all doing. When I was messing around in a MazdaSpeed6 on snow and ice, I had a great deal of trouble figuring out what the front tires were actually doing once it started to slide. In my opinion, it is less intuitive than FWD or RWD to sort out.

And I talk from grand experience... having driven for 20 years... in the tropics.

Okay... FWD rocks in the mud... that is all.

Mud is kind of similar to slushy snow, though worse.

 

[niky]

I guess it all depends on how your diff is programmed. Most AWDs act exactly like FWDs on loose surfaces... Boot the throttle to straighten out the car. Otherwise, the only difference is a small improvement in your chances of not getting stuck. We had a rallycross event last year where a guy with a turbocharged FD Civic was taking names against an assortment of Scoobies and Evos.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

pmsl@Azuremen, typical response of a M3 driver.

Typical attitude of an Evo driver.

But really, people should try and drive an 4WD car in the snow/wet/rough conditions. Its like a world of difference, sure the mileage of my evo is ofcourse worse than a mx5/miata/etc but afterall a Evo is an enthusiasts car. The handling is raw, but its a hoot to drive! Even in ****** weather conditions.

Now... The only AWD car I've driven in snow etc was a 2010 Legacy with (obviously) fresh all-seasons. After the test drive I took my (then) '05 Mazda 6i through the same neighborhood which had 35000-mile old all-seasons on it.

The result? Subie stopped with less drama but not any quicker (gimmicky ABS + EPS = car stops dead straight anywhere) and had zero wheelspin issues. Thing is... The 6 maintained more steerability at all times and felt more willing to do what you wanted.

Guys say the only thing 4WD does in a truck is get you stuck further in. What AWD does on snow is get you to the accident quicker, not prevent it.

 

[nobuffalo]

Meh, I had a great experience dding the camry through two winters. No problems feeling what the car was doing, easy to initiate oversteer and drift for hours on end. The car felt great, and I can't recall any dislikes, besides when it started cutting out between 2-3k. I don't mean to brag, but I was able to control that car like none other!

My playing ground. All houses gone, zero traffic, no plowed roads. Hours and hours and hours of practice, something you need to get the most out of any drivetrain.

 

[McLaren]

You were drifting a Camry?

I'm also assuming you were in Tx. during those 2 winters? If so, Texas winters can be traversed in anything. There is rarely enough snow to cause issue.

 

[nobuffalo]

You were drifting a Camry?

Yessir. I wanted to get a torsen diff from a st185 to throw underneath it, allowing for even more control, although I can't say I really had much problem with only one tire spinning. Swap in a beams 3sge and I think anyone would have a good time in that car.



While the guy's just sliding about in a open parking lot with no real direction, you can see how the car could be easily drifted. Not much to say about his driving.

I'm also assuming you were in Tx. during those 2 winters? If so, Texas winters can be traversed in anything. There is rarely enough snow to cause issue.

Nosir. Missouri. Believe it or not, one of the biggest negatives moving down here is not being to play around in the snow in the camry. If it was snowing out and i'm not working or sleeping, i'd be driving in it.

 

[niky]

You can drift a Prius if you're nuts enough. You don't even need snow. Just spec the standard 15" wheels instead of the 17's and find a nice, wide corner...

EDIT: Getting ridiculously off-topic, we are... but Camry is also the default answer to many of the questions in the first post...