Libertarian Party: Your Thoughts?

[TenEightyOne]

Gornje Podunavlje is on the east side of the Danube, in Serbia, while Liberland is on the west side - as you can see here. The whole point is that Croatia doesn't claim that bit of land, while Serbian territorial claim ends at the Danube...

Fair enough, one Gornje looks very much like another to me

It'll be fascinating to see what happens when this eventually reaches some kind of review. The Serbia/Croatia convention agreeing borders seems to have met very sporadically and neither side seems to have made any progress with the claims they are makng (some river islands aside). Clearly both countries can use EU border permit regs to stop land crossings from their territory to areas outside the EU, Croatia act on the land border while Serbia can act on the Danube shore. It doesn't seem that the Danube Commission's customs rules would carry any weight.

While nearly every part of my brain instinctively screams "this isn't legal"... logically it seems that it must be. Not easy, but legal. If Liberland is allowed to exist it will become very rich very quickly, particularly with the tax system they're advertising. it's a great plan.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

It would be best for libertarians to claim ownership of land already owned, rather than land that no-one wants?

Yes.

Because then people who oppose libertarians, liberals and anyone remotely aligned to the political left don't have to try hard to discredit the groups they are opposed to. All they have to do is shout "bloody hippie liberals" and their job is done.

 

[Liquid]

What's the story with Liberland then? According to this publishing of an official Zagreb report by the Hungarian embassy in Croatia:

Once the borderline between the Republic of Croatia and the Republic of Serbia is finally determined and both sides assume control of their respective territories on the other side of the Danube River, the issues as to the exact course of the state border will have been resolved. In any case, regardless of the fact that the border has not yet been finally determined, the area concerned does not involve no man’s land (terra nullius) which could be subject to occupation by a third party.

After international arbitration it will go to either Croatia or Serbia. Serbia also describes it as a 'frivilous' matter.

 

[LeMansAid]

Still trying to work out why none of the libertarians on here made anything much of this.

If there's a reason why banning advertising for a certain product fits with a libertarian ethos, I'd like to know it. Further, if there's a reason why requiring a prescription fits with a libertarian ethos, I'd like to know it.

 

[squadops]

If you are speaking of the party, well, just look at their current candidate. If you are speaking to libertarians then I'm not sure what they have to say, you already know what I think.

The idea would be people of a responsible enough nature it would be a non issue, I think.

 

[LeMansAid]

If you are speaking to libertarians then I'm not sure what they have to say

They definitely have a lot to say when certain other freedoms come in to question, and sometimes add that it's not the specific issue but the broader principles of freedom that matter most. Just not sure why this gets no attention if true.

 

[mustafur]

I agree with it and I'll tell you why, prescription medicine in America is incredibly unregulated, a significant proportion of these drugs wouldn't pass legality in basically any other 1st world country because of the lack of testing and results.

It goes further then that though, in America doctors are legally allowed to be lobbied by these same companies to recommend their products in return for commission.

It's an incredibly dishonest practise to have Doctors recommending untested drugs with unproven results over drugs they would know is proven.

So even though I believe that people should be responsible for their actions, expecting them to be the doctor is going too far.



These are very shady laws underneath it all, that undermines the credibility of the Medical industry.

 

[squadops]

I've never known one to buy something based on a tv ad anyway, I know plenty of them

I suspect you are asking what about the rest of the populous.

 

[mustafur]

I've never known one to buy something based on a tv ad anyway, I know plenty of them

I suspect you are asking what about the rest of the populous.

This is prescription medicine though, the ads just plant the seed of subliminal the real effect is when you get the prescription and then you have to choose the drug, these companies double dip by doing the ad plus the doctor endorsement which basically would make you think well this must be the right one, I mean it's not that far fetched to take the doctors word on it since it is their job to know these things.

 

[LeMansAid]

I agree with it and I'll tell you why, prescription medicine in America is incredibly unregulated, a significant proportion of these drugs wouldn't pass legality in basically any other 1st world country because of the lack of testing and results.

It goes further then that though, in America doctors are legally allowed to be lobbied by these same companies to recommend their products in return for commission.

It's an incredibly dishonest practise to have Doctors recommending untested drugs with unproven results over drugs they would know is proven.

So even though I believe that people should be responsible for their actions, expecting them to be the doctor is going too far.

So you would argue for the right of any adult to buy any recreational drug from any other adult, but feel the need to protect them from themselves when it comes to medicinal drugs?

 

[squadops]

@mustafur Oh, you should prolly read my comments in the other thread 👍

 

[mustafur]

So you would argue for the right of any adult to buy any recreational drug from any other adult, but feel the need to protect them from themselves when it comes to medicinal drugs?

Is drug dealing a Medical Profession?

People know the Risk they take in that, Doctors have credentials and an element of legal liability, Massive difference.

 

[squadops]

If drug dealing was legal it would be regulated by the fed just as the medical stuff though, will be interesting to see what the future brings.

I will most likely not change my mind about advo's for medication just as it doesn't bother me that cig commercials were banned. I sure wish every time I got drunk on expensive beers I had a flock of bikini clad ladies by my side

 

[LeMansAid]

People know the Risk they take in that

Doctors have credentials and an element of legal liability, Massive difference.

Why should people have to go through a doctor?

You're advocating personal responsibility in one situation, and not in the equivalent other.

So even though I believe that people should be responsible for their actions, expecting them to be the doctor is going too far.

It's not expecting, it's giving them freedom and options. Doctors will be more than happy to continue being paid to give advice, and many will be willing to pay for that advice. Right now the doctors have us on their terms.

 

[mustafur]

If drug dealing was legal it would be regulated by the fed just as the medical stuff though, will be interesting to see what the future brings.

I will most likely not change my mind about advo's for medication just as it doesn't bother me that cig commercials were banned. I sure wish every time I got drunk on expensive beers I had a flock of bikini clad ladies by my side

Don't get me wrong, I'm all For a proper Free economy, but i also see a Rigged economy when i see it, and when it's as rigged as America is right now, you have to look at it in detail to understand it's just not going to be proper free the way it's run and be realistic on what is going to be best in the long term, to insure it has that possibility.

It's a big part of the reason i Support Sanders, because the number 1 thing that needs to change is get corporate interest out of the Government before you can do anything, then and only then can your preferred economy position make sense.

 

[squadops]

I'd argue that Sanders would take away all interest of anyone that was not part of the government, I could not agree any less.

Maybe this will help you understand, as a middle of the road business man, I get shut out by special interest big corp guys who make the rules to hard for me to do business, I also equally get kicked to the curb by the left gov with all their social program bs. I cannot win for loosing but as I've said before...

I will take a crooked croney over a bleeding heart any day.

 

[mustafur]

Why should people have to go through a doctor?

You're advocating personal responsibility in one situation, and not in the equivalent other.

It's not expecting, it's giving them freedom and options. Doctors will be more than happy to continue being paid to give advice, and many will be willing to pay for that advice. Right now the doctors have us on their terms.

Why do doctors exist then?
Look I get it your a Utilitarian, but your reasoning is completely illogical in a modern world that isn't even close to that level.
What about those that require and I Mean require assistance to live, such as a young child who requires medicine, do you advocate the parent to do 8 years medical training to understand all the risks so they can make an informed choice on something that needs urgent attention?

or just Survival of the Fittest?

 

[squadops]

Go back

 

[mustafur]

Go back

Ok, I understand your point, mine is basically a much longer term view.

Remove the Corporations from the Government first, then Socialism or not, Free capitalism can now exist(of course with removal of the latter).

Regardless, big corporations can wipe out your business, Social Programs would at be at the hinder it level(even that could possibly be changed with marketing, depending on what that is).

Besides what Bernie advocates is not really something that would hurt Business as much as state legislators which go completely under the radar, and have the most effect on how your state operates.

 

[squadops]

You gonna move to Finland?

 

[mustafur]

You gonna move to Finland?

I already live in basically what Sanders advocates, however corporate interest is much better hidden here but definitely not even close to as strong.

 

[squadops]

It would not work here in the U.S. I promise you that, as I figured the libertarian party discussion was U.S. based, maybe I am off based

 

[LeMansAid]

What about those that require and I Mean require assistance to live, such as a young child who requires medicine, do you advocate the parent to do 8 years medical training to understand all the risks so they can make an informed choice on something that needs urgent attention?

No, they just go to a doctor. Might even be good if doctors weren't holding sick people to ransom.

Maybe you need to work out if you are actually a libertarian, or just happen to agree with some of their bits and pieces.

Somehow it seems that for some things it's "In an ideal world we could trust people with ________, but it's not an ideal world." Then for other things it's "Freedom, freedom, freeeeeeeedom!!!", "But people are dying", "FREEEEEEDOOOOOM!!!!".

 

[mustafur]

No, they just go to a doctor. Might even be good if doctors weren't holding sick people to ransom.

Maybe you need to work out if you are actually a libertarian, or just happen to agree with some of their bits and pieces.

Somehow it seems that for some things it's "In an ideal world we could trust people with ________, but it's not an ideal world." Then for other things it's "Freedom, freedom, freeeeeeeedom!!!", "But people are dying", "FREEEEEEDOOOOOM!!!!".

you need to understand Utilitarian is not all libertarians, im not a big fan of living like the walking dead.

Im not a pure blooded anarchist deal with it, your probably going to be alone on that one.

 

[squadops]

It's still a freedom to choose whether to see the doctor or not, I don't think anyone is crying for a free for all.

 

[mustafur]

It's still a freedom to choose whether to see the doctor or not, I don't think anyone is crying for a free for all.

I have no problem with choosing that, but I do have a problem when Doctors knowingly are allowed to go against their own judgment for profit and it's deemed perfectly acceptable, Police are not allowed(Bribery), what makes this any different?

 

[squadops]

You still have not read the other thread?

 

[mustafur]

You still have not read the other thread?

You still haven't told me what the thread is lol.

 

[squadops]

The start of this convo 👍

Still trying to work out why none of the libertarians on here made anything much of this.

If there's a reason why banning advertising for a certain product fits with a libertarian ethos, I'd like to know it. Further, if there's a reason why requiring a prescription fits with a libertarian ethos, I'd like to know it.

 

[mustafur]

I answered that without knowing anyway, Libertarian is such a massive scope of a political view you need to explain further on what you are.

As most lean it to a social stance I'll explain further, Utilitarians are on the far Right and Libertarian Socialism being the Far left, both are anarchist with a different view of that state being either Communist or Capitalist, both in pure form.

Then you have Left Libertarianism(Support of Mixed economy, like Sanders) and Right/Classic libertarianism(Austrian Economics Support of minimal Government, Like Ron Paul) and that sums up most of where it's at.

I definitely side with the Austrian school of thought but lean slightly left on a few issues.

I would state that Keynesian Economics would be more Authoritarian Capitalism where an external force can dictate the Market other then the Market itself.