Libertarian Party: Your Thoughts?

[mustafur]

A question to those Classic Liberals out there.

Do you think we are approaching the Keynesian Economics End game?

Artificial Booms and Busts since the end of WW2 have accumulated unpayable levels of debt, with the only way to minimalize it is via Financial repression from the Central banks to devalue the currency in which debt has to be paid from, which in turn will put the economy of said Country towards Hyper inflation.

This pattern is most evident in Japan who had their 2008 like Crisis back in the early 90s and now have nearly 300% economic Debt with no possible way to pay it without making the economy having negative growth.

Murphys law comes into effect if your going to artifically boost an economy it has to naturally come down at some point, but keynesian economics is in direct opposition of any negative growth with a failed premise that the good times must never stop.

 

[FoolKiller]

I was listening to yesterday's Tom Woods Show podcast and he interviewed the president and the American ambassador of Liberland, a new country founded with the intent of being a completely libertarian country.

They apparently found a chunk of land between Croatia and Serbia that neither claimed, so they just claimed it as their own and moved in.

They are in the process of forming their constitution and in setting up embassies around the globe. They have over 340,000 requests for citizenship at this time, making their population potentially larger than Iceland. Their land area is approximately 7sq kilometers, making it more than three times the size of Monaco.

The taxes are to be completely voluntary and they are planning close to 50 limits on the local government in their constitution. They wish to keep all services private and have as little government involvement as possible.



So, for those who have always asked, "If a libertarian society would be so great why hasn't anyone tried it?"

I thought this would be done by seasteading, but looks like a land-based society is in the lead.

 

[GTsail]

Their land area is approximately 7sq kilometers, making it more than three times the size of Monaco.

Who owns the land? ***

Does the State own the land, and its citizens need to buy their land from the State?

Or will some sort of land-rush/homesteading policy apply to the first citizens who can migrate to Liberland?


I've read most of the Liberland Constitution but still haven't been able to figure this out

*** For purposes of this discussion, I'm assuming that the land in Liberland doesn't get snatched by Croatia

Respectfully,
GTsail

 

[FoolKiller]

Who owns the land? ***

Does the State own the land, and its citizens need to buy their land from the State?

Or will some sort of land-rush/homesteading policy apply to the first citizens who can migrate to Liberland?


I've read most of the Liberland Constitution but still haven't been able to figure this out

*** For purposes of this discussion, I'm assuming that the land in Liberland doesn't get snatched by Croatia

Respectfully,
GTsail

The land issues are still being handled with Croatia. It isn't on their survey maps, they had not claimed or developed it, but they did arrest the president in May, but have released him quickly.

Currently, they have to enter via boat on the Danube.

I intend to keep an eye on this and see what happens.


As for land ownership; The constitution is still in draft form. It won't be finalized for a while.

 

[TenEightyOne]

The land issues are still being handled with Croatia. It isn't on their survey maps, they had not claimed or developed it, but they did arrest the president in May, but have released him quickly.

I guess that this is one of the post-Dayton land pockets? Since the war there have been areas that fall outside the border shrinkage... I wouldn't imagine that either Serbia or Croatia would make it easy to access either. I doubt that any of the pockets "aren't on survey maps", Yugoslavia was hardly backwoods.

 

[polysmut]

My previous avatar was the flag of Liberland. I didn't really have a reason for it.

 

[FoolKiller]

I wouldn't imagine that either Serbia or Croatia would make it easy to access either.

Serbia can't stop them. The Danube has a free access agreement among the countries that border it. They can just come down the river, if necessary.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Serbia can't stop them. The Danube has a free access agreement among the countries that border it. They can just come down the river, if necessary.

I didn't put that so well, there are such pockets on either side of the Danube as I recall. It's actually an International Waterway rather than simply being accessible by the recognised countries that border it, but the effect is the same. I meant to say that if such pockets were settled in "Serbia" I'd expect the Serbians to act as the Croatians are for this bit of land. Which I note is only three square miles... I guess the real purpose is as a tax haven?

 

[FoolKiller]

I didn't put that so well, there are such pockets on either side of the Danube as I recall. It's actually an International Waterway rather than simply being accessible by the recognised countries that border it, but the effect is the same. I meant to say that if such pockets were settled in "Serbia" I'd expect the Serbians to act as the Croatians are for this bit of land.

I see. Yeah. Honestly, I don't see why the countries would have an issue. They'll need employees early on, which will mean Croatians, they'll have a non-aggression principal so it isn't a security threat in that sense, and they will develop land that no one seems to really care about anyway.

Which I note is only three square miles...

Three times larger than Monaco.

I guess the real purpose is as a tax haven?

That's a lot of effort for a tax haven, particularly one that will use Bitcoin as it's currency.

In the interview they seemed pretty serious about creating a land with as minimum a government as possible.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Three times larger than Monaco.

Precisely - it's miniscule. The norm in Monaco is that all the flats are hugely over-populated by "residents" who simply pay phone bills and utilities in order to benefit from the tax haven. Very few people really live there in comparison to the stated population.

That's a lot of effort for a tax haven, particularly one that will use Bitcoin as it's currency.

No it isn't, the rewards are enormous. Bitcoins are a normal currency, not magically untaxable. If you read the Liberland forums you can see a number of serious-looking finance propositions in many currencies - just because Liberland wouldn't issue its own currency doesn't mean that its citizens can't hold any other currency.

 

[FoolKiller]

Precisely - it's miniscule. The norm in Monaco is that all the flats are hugely over-populated by "residents" who simply pay phone bills and utilities in order to benefit from the tax haven. Very few people really live there in comparison to the stated population.



No it isn't, the rewards are enormous. Bitcoins are a normal currency, not magically untaxable. If you read the Liberland forums you can see a number of serious-looking finance propositions in many currencies - just because Liberland wouldn't issue its own currency doesn't mean that its citizens can't hold any other currency.

I don't doubt that it will be used as a tax haven, but they do not appear to be trying to do that. When they talk about it they talk about services to residents and whatnot.

Feel free to listen to the interview.
http://tomwoods.com/podcast/ep-440-liberland-a-new-libertarian-country/

In the comments someone asked a similar question and it is apparently being discussed on Facebook. So, questions are being asked and answered there.

 

[InSight]

I guess that this is one of the post-Dayton land pockets? Since the war there have been areas that fall outside the border shrinkage... I wouldn't imagine that either Serbia or Croatia would make it easy to access either. I doubt that any of the pockets "aren't on survey maps", Yugoslavia was hardly backwoods.

These liberal nutjobs clearly don't understand history between Croats and Serbs. Those two very conservative nations certainly won't tolerate any liberal hippies in their countries, stealing their lands away like that. Kosovo was bad enough for the Serbs and Croats are very proud of the "Oluja" Storm operation against Serbs. They could certainly pull it off again.

It's like poking a hornets nest, lots of veterans, conservative patriots and weapons around those parts. Certainly not a place for liberal utopia.

 

[FoolKiller]

These liberal nutjobs

Liberals? Where?


Oh wait, you must mean classic liberals, which have little to do with modern day liberals.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Liberals? Where?

Oh wait, you must mean classic liberals, which have little to do with modern day liberals.

His point about the region stands though, I think.

 

[FoolKiller]

His point about the region stands though, I think.

I questioned the location the moment they mentioned it, but they are attempting to create diplomatic ties and resolve all issues peacefully.

 

[Famine]

Those two very conservative nations certainly won't tolerate any liberal hippies in their countries, stealing their lands away like that.

Land that neither nation wants nor claims?

 

[Omnis]

This Liberland thing is brilliant, if only to show "If libertarian utopia is so great, why hasn't anyone tried it?" is a dumb argument. Will be interesting to watch their experiment. Hopefully Croatia and Serbia don't roll their asses.

 

[Liquid]

They are in the process of forming their constitution and in setting up embassies around the globe. They have over 340,000 requests for citizenship at this time, making their population potentially larger than Iceland. Their land area is approximately 7sq kilometers, making it more than three times the size of Monaco.

On the land they claim sovereingty over;

What is there now?
Are there any inhabitants currently in that space?
If so, are they not entitled to dispute Liberland's claim over the area?
And 340,000 applications for citizenship; for it to count as the population, would they not have to move there? Otherwise they would be some kind of denizen or a bizarre form of "expatriate".

I predict this to be another Sealand. A well funded and well organised Sealand, perhaps, but a Sealand none the less.

That neither Croatia and Serbia claim the area serves only to assist their respective claims on other significant areas in other geographical areas of the long-running, ongoing border dispute between the two nations. I don't imagine that while neither claim that particular part, that they would accept Liberland as owning it.

Much like Bir Tawil; neither Egypt nor Sudan claim it because they think it makes them more entitled to the Halaib Triangle.

With the history amongst the Yugoslav countries, I'd say it's a pretty bad place to try and found a new nation. Serbia, for one, is a terrible country. But I'll be paying attention to this with interest.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Land that neither nation wants nor claims?

So why are Croatia forcibly removing people who visit there without the correct Croatian permissions?

 

[InSight]

Land that neither nation wants nor claims?

We have these border problems all over ex-yu, Croatia has border disputes with all neighboring countries. There was never an incentive to properly resolve these issues after the breakup and wars. Hopefully EU will force the region to resolve this once and for all.

But as a resident, I'd never feel safe there. I'd be VERY surprised if both nations accept this entity in peace. Serbia hates Americans since the NATO bombings and bans all pride parades. Croats are not far behind. Conservative and patriotic.

 

[Famine]

So why are Croatia forcibly removing people who visit there without the correct Croatian permissions?

Don't know - I'm not especially familiar with the motives of military and police forces in other countries. I suspect it's something to do with not having a sense of humour and being quite blind to the concept of international borders (see: bits of land they co-claim).

All I know is that they don't claim any land rights for the area. Nor do Serbia.

 

[FoolKiller]

On the land they claim sovereingty over;

What is there now?

Trees.

Are there any inhabitants currently in that space?

No. Just a long-abandoned hunting lodge that is falling apart.

And 340,000 applications for citizenship; for it to count as the population, would they not have to move there? Otherwise they would be some kind of denizen or a bizarre form of "expatriate".

The stated hope is to begin settling in September, but they might have to wait until they can get some kind of official recognition.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Don't know - I'm not especially familiar with the motives of military and police forces in other countries. I suspect it's something to do with not having a sense of humour and being quite blind to the concept of international borders (see: bits of land they co-claim).

All I know is that they don't claim any land rights for the area. Nor do Serbia.

It's definitely an interesting case. Serbia claim the land according to the edge of the Danube while Croatia mapped their border on land. When the Danube moved the area of "Liberland" became available. It'll be fascinating to see how the UN falls on it (I believe their Watercourse Conventions will cover the technicalities of water borders and the movement of those borders) but I can't think of any precedent to guess by.

 

[InSight]

Don't know - I'm not especially familiar with the motives of military and police forces in other countries. I suspect it's something to do with not having a sense of humour and being quite blind to the concept of international borders (see: bits of land they co-claim).

All I know is that they don't claim any land rights for the area. Nor do Serbia.

I believe they prefer to leave it alone, not opening old wounds. Like a buffer zone, no mans land. It would be best to keep this balance in place and Liberland should find some other place, somewhere in Western Europe. Maybe a French countryside or something.

 

[Famine]

I believe they prefer to leave it alone, not opening old wounds. Like a buffer zone, no mans land. It would be best to keep this balance in place and Liberland should find some other place, somewhere in Western Europe. Maybe a French countryside or something.

It would be best for libertarians to claim ownership of land already owned, rather than land that no-one wants?

 

[GTsail]

Serbia claim the land according to the edge of the Danube while Croatia mapped their border on land. When the Danube moved the area of "Liberland" became available. It'll be fascinating to see how the UN falls on it (I believe their Watercourse Conventions will cover the technicalities of water borders and the movement of those borders) but I can't think of any precedent to guess by.

It sounds similar to the Red River land dispute which is on the border between Texas and Oklahoma:

Red River land dispute

Over the years, the Red River (which runs along the border between the states of Texas and Oklahoma) has moved. Depending upon the date of any particular map, this causes the border between the states to move, and has caused controversy in regard to who owns the land.

Red River Maps

Respectfully,
GTsail

 

[Joel]

It would be best for libertarians to claim ownership of land already owned, rather than land that no-one wants?

And we all know the French are huge supporters of limited government

 

[InSight]

It would be best for libertarians to claim ownership of land already owned, rather than land that no-one wants?

They're just leeching on loopholes and unresolved border disputes. Also that area is protected wetland reserve, they can't just barge in and start chopping down trees.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gornje_Podunavlje

 

[TenEightyOne]

They're just leeching on loopholes and unresolved border disputes. Also that area is protected wetland reserve, they can't just barge in and start chopping down trees.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gornje_Podunavlje

Wait a minute... so they're trying to "build" on a nature reserve? That gives a new complexion...

 

[Famine]

Wait a minute... so they're trying to "build" on a nature reserve? That gives a new complexion...

It certainly would do if it were true.

Which it isn't - even if you want to leave aside the fact that neither country claims the land, so who's protecting the protected wetland reserve.

Gornje Podunavlje is on the east side of the Danube, in Serbia, while Liberland is on the west side - as you can see here. The whole point is that Croatia doesn't claim that bit of land, while Serbian territorial claim ends at the Danube...