Limited Slip Differential - Research
- Thread starter itstheDRE4M
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- 1,175
Lower value = locked diff. You are lowering the sensitivity to torque difference. This means the diff locks as soon as there is a tiny difference in torque. You can test this by doing a burnout with one side of the car on the grass. At 5 the car will go in a straight line, and at 60 it will immediately pull off the track.
- 195
- itstheDRE4M
I am typing this WORD FOR WORD straight from the IN GAME DESCRIPTION!
Initial Torque --
Initial Torque is the amount of torque necessary to activate the LSD, and prevents sudden changes in performance and handling when the LSD is activated during acceleration and deceleration. The stronger this setting, the less likely unexpected changes are to occur, but the more likely you are to experience understeer.
Acceleration --
Adjust how the LSD will behave when the accelerator is press. The higher this setting, the more traction will be retained, but the closer to differential lock you go, the more pronounced understeer will become.
Thank you. Easy to figure out, no? They seem to have a looooot of trouble with it.
Thats also exactly what it does in real life.
Initial Torque is the amount of torque necessary to activate the LSD
^ right there buds. higher amount means it takes more torque to activate smartypants.
Either way like I said, Im done, and Im right.
- 43
- Dave_Panic
I take it back poppins. I think you may be right but i'm not sure either way right now.
- 195
- itstheDRE4M
You're not right dude. If you were right about all of this.. my test results would differ. I'd be running faster times with an initial set to 5.
Initial Torque at 5 -- Lap time of 0:53.609
- Inside tire loses traction around ALL TURNS.
- Inside tire loses traction only on tighter turns.
- (Inside Tire)Very little loss in traction during hairpin turns (8) and (4). Quickly regains traction and barely leaves a visual skid mark.
Initial Torque of 60 pushes a full SECOND FASTER LAP! meaning traction is greater than that of being set to 5.
- 43
- Dave_Panic
I think I get this now. been doing some reading and I've been thinking about the whole thing the wrong way. the accel and decel values control how much slip is allowed between the 2 wheels when accelerating and braking. it's not about the diff locking at all, it's about engaging the slip mechanism which can be set to lock if accel or decel were set to max.
I guess the accel and decel values will depend entirely on the course and the size and drivetrain of the car. does that sound about right?
I guess the accel and decel values will depend entirely on the course and the size and drivetrain of the car. does that sound about right?
- 195
- itstheDRE4M
I think that's it Dave. It's hardly surprising that there's so much confusion - there's numerous references to "higher" or "stronger" settings in the game's description, but actually lower numbers = a "stronger", tighter diff. Why it behaves the way it does, I really don't know.
you can't disagree with the results I have. Results are Results. This is what happens in game and this is what I am going with.
Lol but they arent wrong, its you and everyone else who thinks they are right who are the wrong ones. None of you even know how a LSD works in real life obviously.
In game clearly says that lower = more lock and higher = less lock while the sensitivity is a variable in the equation to calculate when the LSD kicks in.
In game clearly says that lower = more lock and higher = less lock while the sensitivity is a variable in the equation to calculate when the LSD kicks in.
And sorry but yet again I can disagree with your results because you dont know what you are doing and your results are flawed leading to you giving out false information. Im pretty sure that Dave_Panic is right as well, the Accel and Decel are variables used in the equation based off of the initial torque constant to calculate how fast and hard the tires kick in.
From the testing ive been doing all day ive pretty much came up with this
low initial torque makes it kick in fast and really hard, so when it does kick in the lsd the slower tire instantly spins as fast as the faster tire
higher initial torque is the opposite, it still kicks in but it doesnt kick in as hard or as fast so when it does kick in the slower tire does start to spin but it doesnt instantly go out of control to the same speed as the other tire but moreso lets itself slip a little bit
accel and brake sens are just based off of the initial torque so having it set very high just affects the speed and reaction to throttle that it will kick in, and it doesnt affect how quickly the slower tire gets up to speed relative to the faster tire (meaning it will lock up if IT and AS are set to 60 for both pretty fast but it wont do it as suddenly as if IT was at 5)
So the good middleground is just plain 25 or 30, set it lower if you want it to kick in harder and allow getting the back end out easier and a bit higher if you want some more stability and control.
- 1,175
It's confusing because the camaro will burn it's inside rear wheel halfway down the straight with a supposedly locked diff. It's confusing because there are constant references to "higher setting" in the game's description.
I believe you're faster with an open (high numbers on the scale - more slippage allowed) diff, because tsukuba is a tight circuit and the car is turning more freely. With racing soft tyres, traction isn't really much of an issue.
I believe you're faster with an open (high numbers on the scale - more slippage allowed) diff, because tsukuba is a tight circuit and the car is turning more freely. With racing soft tyres, traction isn't really much of an issue.
- 195
- itstheDRE4M
It does not clearly say LOWER = MORE LOCK.
However, it does clearly say, The higher this setting, the more traction will be retained, but the closer to differential lock you go, the more pronounced understeer will become.
Which means the higher = more Lock.
By the way.. I did your little test with the Speed 12. 3rd Gear launch from stand still using Racing Softs..
I got no difference in 5/60/20 and 60/60/20. Pictures to show Skid-marks. Comparable and look identical.
yeah because with accel sens at max it still burns both tires it just doesnt kick in "as hard" my last post explains how i think it is after testing all day.
and the bolded part that you have there "The higher this setting, the more traction will be retained, but the closer to differential lock you go, the more pronounced understeer will become." Is from the Description of Accel Sens and not Initial Torque
and the bolded part that you have there "The higher this setting, the more traction will be retained, but the closer to differential lock you go, the more pronounced understeer will become." Is from the Description of Accel Sens and not Initial Torque
- 195
- itstheDRE4M
INITIAL TORQUE! STRAIGHT FROM GT4!!
THIS JUST IN!!!
Initial Torque ----
Apart from cornering where limited-slip is fully applied, it also slightly limits slip in the differential at other times. The force applied to the limited-slip in advanced is called the initial torque. It is possible to change the handling of the car by changing it's initial torque. Increasing the initial torque increases the response when initial-slip is active, but makes the car harder to turn. On the other hand, a weak initial torque makes the car easier to turn but reduces the response of the limited-slip.
There is absolutely no reason they should have inverted this in GT5.
And besides that.. my results PROVE ME RIGHT along with this definition! Believe what you want, but don't hate.
THIS JUST IN!!!
Initial Torque ----
Apart from cornering where limited-slip is fully applied, it also slightly limits slip in the differential at other times. The force applied to the limited-slip in advanced is called the initial torque. It is possible to change the handling of the car by changing it's initial torque. Increasing the initial torque increases the response when initial-slip is active, but makes the car harder to turn. On the other hand, a weak initial torque makes the car easier to turn but reduces the response of the limited-slip.
There is absolutely no reason they should have inverted this in GT5.
And besides that.. my results PROVE ME RIGHT along with this definition! Believe what you want, but don't hate.
So how about we try and agree on things now. Initial torque is how much torque is required for it to start to kick in, do you agree on that? Because that's what it is and thats what it says in game. Acceleration Sensitivity / Braking is how fast it reacts when pressing throttle / brake, so say, for example, 5/5/20 will lock up really hard when it does, but it will take a few seconds to react to you pressing the throttle due to the Accel Sens at 5, compared to it being set at say 30/60/20, where it wont lock up as hard when it does due to initial torque being higher, but when you press the throttle it reacts instantly.
So.
Initial Torque is plain and simple, how hard it is to lock/how much engine power is needed.
Accel Sens is how reactive to throttle it is and Decel Sens is how reactive to braking it is.
Can we agree on that?
Because honestly having it at 60/60/20 makes it lock up fast but when it does it has a little bit of one tire fire but still is able to keep stable due to that and having it at 5/60/20 makes it lock up just as fast but when it does it kicks both tires to the same speed instantly instead of letting one spin a little bit faster then the other.
Good enough for you? Sounds good enough for me
So optimum LSD for almost all cars that are RWD anyways would probably be around 30/60/30 so it is very sensitive to throttle, not so much for braking, but still locks up right away while still letting a bit of tire speed difference to help stability and cornering.
So.
Initial Torque is plain and simple, how hard it is to lock/how much engine power is needed.
Accel Sens is how reactive to throttle it is and Decel Sens is how reactive to braking it is.
Can we agree on that?
Because honestly having it at 60/60/20 makes it lock up fast but when it does it has a little bit of one tire fire but still is able to keep stable due to that and having it at 5/60/20 makes it lock up just as fast but when it does it kicks both tires to the same speed instantly instead of letting one spin a little bit faster then the other.
Good enough for you? Sounds good enough for me
So optimum LSD for almost all cars that are RWD anyways would probably be around 30/60/30 so it is very sensitive to throttle, not so much for braking, but still locks up right away while still letting a bit of tire speed difference to help stability and cornering.
- 39
- NMRacing
Taken from wikipedia.
Torque-sensitive
The use of the word mechanical implies that the limited slip differential is engaged by interaction between two (or more) mechanical parts. This category includes clutch and cone and helical gear limited slip differentials. For road racing, many prefer a limited slip differential, because it does not lock the two output shafts to spin at the same rate, but rather biases torque to the wheel with more grip by up to 80%.
Geared LSDs respond to driveshaft torque, so that the more driveshaft input torque present, the harder the clutches or cones or gears are pressed together, and thus the more closely the drive wheels are coupled to each other. Some include spring-loading to provide some small torque so that with no / little input torque (trailing throttle/gearbox in neutral/main clutch depressed) the drive wheels are minimally coupled. The amount of preload (hence static coupling) on the clutches or cones are affected by the general condition (wear) and by how tightly they are loaded.(Note the word preload. Preload is the more common name for Initial torque)
Broadly speaking, there are three input torque states: load, no load, and over run. During load conditions, as previously stated, the coupling is proportional to the input torque. With no load, the coupling is reduced to the static coupling. The behaviour on over run (particularly sudden throttle release) determines whether the LSD is 1 way, 1.5 way, or 2 way.
If there is no additional coupling on over run, the LSD is 1 way. This is a safer LSD: as soon as the driver lifts the throttle, the LSD unlocks and behaves somewhat like a conventional open differential. This is also the best for FWD cars, as it allows the car to turn in on throttle release, instead of plowing forward.
If the LSD increases coupling in the same way regardless of whether the input torque is forward or reverse, it is a 2 way differential. Some drifters prefer this type as the LSD behaves the same regardless of their erratic throttle input, and lets them keep the wheels spinning all the way through a corner. An inexperienced driver can easily spin the car when using a 2 way LSD if they lift the throttle suddenly, expecting the car to settle like a conventional open differential.
If the LSD behaves somewhere in between these two extremes, it is a 1.5 way differential, which is a compromise between sportiness and safety.
Torque-sensitive
The use of the word mechanical implies that the limited slip differential is engaged by interaction between two (or more) mechanical parts. This category includes clutch and cone and helical gear limited slip differentials. For road racing, many prefer a limited slip differential, because it does not lock the two output shafts to spin at the same rate, but rather biases torque to the wheel with more grip by up to 80%.
Geared LSDs respond to driveshaft torque, so that the more driveshaft input torque present, the harder the clutches or cones or gears are pressed together, and thus the more closely the drive wheels are coupled to each other. Some include spring-loading to provide some small torque so that with no / little input torque (trailing throttle/gearbox in neutral/main clutch depressed) the drive wheels are minimally coupled. The amount of preload (hence static coupling) on the clutches or cones are affected by the general condition (wear) and by how tightly they are loaded.(Note the word preload. Preload is the more common name for Initial torque)
Broadly speaking, there are three input torque states: load, no load, and over run. During load conditions, as previously stated, the coupling is proportional to the input torque. With no load, the coupling is reduced to the static coupling. The behaviour on over run (particularly sudden throttle release) determines whether the LSD is 1 way, 1.5 way, or 2 way.
If there is no additional coupling on over run, the LSD is 1 way. This is a safer LSD: as soon as the driver lifts the throttle, the LSD unlocks and behaves somewhat like a conventional open differential. This is also the best for FWD cars, as it allows the car to turn in on throttle release, instead of plowing forward.
If the LSD increases coupling in the same way regardless of whether the input torque is forward or reverse, it is a 2 way differential. Some drifters prefer this type as the LSD behaves the same regardless of their erratic throttle input, and lets them keep the wheels spinning all the way through a corner. An inexperienced driver can easily spin the car when using a 2 way LSD if they lift the throttle suddenly, expecting the car to settle like a conventional open differential.
If the LSD behaves somewhere in between these two extremes, it is a 1.5 way differential, which is a compromise between sportiness and safety.
Yet that definition is from the previous game though and I see what you mean Ive looked it up dont worry but its not the same in this game obviously.
Just look at my last post and you will probably agree with me.
- 3,359
- California
- PumpinNumbies
You guys do realize you're trying to reason with a kid, who's entire argument is based on: "Because it says so in the help menu!!11one!!1"
- 195
- itstheDRE4M
Im not a kid and my argument is based on how it actually is, through lots of testing and thats how it says it is in the help menu, why would they have the help menu completely opposite of what it actually is?
Either way I know how it works and most people in here dont so Im fine with that, pulling off 57 second HSR laps in my Speed 12 right now after all the testing Ive done today because I turned the initial torque up to 30 so it DOESNT LOCK as much around corners
You can have fun with your one tire fire and poor diff settings though.
Your results are flawed though because you are trying to say it gets one tire fire with Low Initial Torque when it doesnt at all, and is the complete opposite getting one tire fire at High Initial Torque.
Anyway Id like to say thanks for the constructive criticism throughout the day and that is has helped me a nice amount. Ive been setting Initial Torque at 30~ now instead of 10~ to help me take corners better. Helping a lot not having it lock up on corner exit under heavy throttle
- 195
- itstheDRE4M
Im not a kid and my argument is based on how it actually is, through lots of testing and thats how it says it is in the help menu, why would they have the help menu completely opposite of what it actually is?
Either way I know how it works and most people in here dont so Im fine with that, pulling off 57 second HSR laps in my Speed 12 right now after all the testing Ive done today because I turned the initial torque up to 30 so it DOESNT LOCK as much around corners
You can have fun with your one tire fire and poor diff settings though.
***
Cusco's Type MZ Limited Slip Differential utilizes clutch discs to provide high initial torque. This is best suited for those who drift and drag race and require solid engagement.
Your results are flawed though because you are trying to say it gets one tire fire with Low Initial Torque when it doesnt at all, and is the complete opposite getting one tire fire at High Initial Torque.
Anyway Id like to say thanks for the constructive criticism throughout the day and that is has helped me a nice amount. Ive been setting Initial Torque at 30~ now instead of 10~ to help me take corners better. Helping a lot not having it lock up on corner exit under heavy throttle
I'm not TRYING to say it gets one-tire-fire with low Initial. MY RESULTS PROVE it gets one-tire-fire with low initial.
- 195
- itstheDRE4M
Do you not realize what you're saying?
Why would ANY lsd have a 60% lock on it, that is rediculous, 95% is way more realistic for a maximum and 40% for a minimum, as opposed to 60% for maximum and 5% for minimum, and you just dont seem to want to realize or admit that Im right. And you obviously dont know how a LSD works and have been getting all of your info from internet/wikipedia/idiot gt4 tuners. I dont even care you just plain must not have high enough of an IQ to understand what Im saying.
Have fun with your open differential and have fun being wrong and thinking you're right.
for the people who are actually not stupid and understand, 5 initial torque = 95 % lock, 60 initial torque = 40% lock
- 195
- itstheDRE4M
Get out of my thread. Appreciate it.
RESULTS DON'T LIE.
AND WHERE DOES IT SAY 5 = 95% or 60 = 40%? OR WHERE DOES IT SAY PERCENTAGES ARE EVEN INVOLVED!?! you're just assuming this.
IN REAL LIFE USING CUCSO LSD's HIGHER INITIAL TORQUE is suited for DRAG/DRIFT.
ACCORDING TO GT4.. the higher the setting, the more responsive the LSD is.
once again. get out of my thread. you've caused enough havoc.
Results don't lie.
Cusco doesn't lie.
GT4 doesn't lie.
It's not my fault GT5's descriptions are flawed. goodbye.
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