Linear or Sandbox?

[FT-1]

Judging by the comments in the main thread, people seem to be split over the quote "Less Sandbox, More Fun". The idea is that being a "Spiritual Successor to Shift" means featuring a linear career mode, where you can unlock and purchase more content as you play, which is a trait shared by many other less hardcore racing games with the intent of being "Fun" by adding a sense of progression. For some, a Sandbox game is considered more fun, where they are more interested in accessing all content from the moment they start playing. Based on Ian's comments thus far, the next Project CARS is set to feature both styles.

So the purpose of this poll is to put the feedback into numbers and gauge the sort of style people prefer overall. Given how PC3 is in a very early development stage, I'm sure it will be useful to @IanBell and his team to receive suggestions on what you would like from your preferred play style (e.g. In a Linear career mode, I would like to unlock upgrades for my road car and convert it into a touring car once it reaches a certain performance index rating.)

 

[David Wright]

I was mainly brought up on traditional sims such as Crammonds GP series, Papyrus Indycar and GPL so I am used to sandbox titles and it doesn't put me off. But I must say I am a sucker for a good career mode. It does give you the incentive to have just one more race, to improve your laptime (or stagetime for rally titles). There is a reward at the end. Career modes I've enjoyed include Rally Trophy and GT Legends, the latter being of course one of Ian's previous titles.

I only recently started the pCARs2 career mode although I've owned it since release. One reason for the delay was the apparent issues with AI on launch - I thought I'd wait till the AI were patched. While I have enjoyed racing the Ginetta Junior around UK tracks, I haven't experienced that "must have another go" experience.

I have to admit while I have reservations about Shift 1, the career did hook me in and kept me racing in spite of issues I had with the AI. The same with Ferrari Racing Legends though I abandoned this after the 50s and 60s cars.

So while lack of a career mode won't stop me buying a game, I do enjoy a good career mode. I suppose the hard bit is making sure the career mode is good and not a grind and if they are keeping the sandbox - providing enough reward to entice you into the career mode.

 

[fernandito]

Progression+unlock all stuff = actual fun

 

[Cholton82]

I liked the offers you got at the end of the season in PC1 , Maybe when you get the offers come in from the GT3 teams it starts with the smaller teams like the Ginettas before you get the drive for someone like AF Corsa.
Having your on track actions and behaviour have consequences with other teams would also be good.

 

[gregc]

Progression & unlocking stuff belongs in career mode, and only there.

In every other mode (custom race/championship(?), time trial, online) I want everything unlocked from when I start the game. So I can't vote in the poll, as there isn't an option that suits me

 

[doblocruiser]

I really like the sense of progression and as said in the other thread this can be done in ways without actually locking the important content behind it. Think of another progressionsystem with challenges to complete. Medals to unlock which for example unlock a special livery for completion or help to build a nice driver profile. Next to that circuit experience! That is one of the most fun I had in GT Sport and I wish that more racers would adapt this feature. PD absolutely nailed that one!

My choice would be "in between the 2"

 

[Scaff]

Progression & unlocking stuff belongs in career mode, and only there.

In every other mode (custom race/championship(?), time trial, online) I want everything unlocked from when I start the game. So I can't vote in the poll, as there isn't an option that suits me

Same here, I personally prefer the Sandbox approach, but am happy with a linear career IF time trial, etc is all unlocked.

So no vote on the poll from me.

 

[FT-1]

It's a pretty cut-throat poll where you have to pick one or the other, but that was the intention. I did contemplate a "middle ground" option, but I thought that would be too vague as most people do like a bit of both to varying degrees, which would leave the other two choices null.

 

[Dobermann92]

I want to have my sandbox experience in custom races, but I'm not against implementing a progression system for career.

 

[jake2013guy]

For a career mode, it makes sense for them to have content locked behind some sort of progression whether it is what they did for PCARS2 or going for the Shift/GT/Forza style of buying cars and completing in championships and customise those cars for the series you're racing in.

However, people will still want their sandbox experience outside of career mode to do whatever they like whether it's for leagues or custom races or just creating liveries for cars for fun.

 

[Sentry87]

Kind of one of the main reasons I like PC2 is because you can drive anything, anywhere. Not a fan of grinding to unlock stuff.

Just give us custom offline championships SMS. Don't side step this once again and give us something we don't want

 

[Imari]

I don't see why both are not possible. A structured single player career can co-exist perfectly happily alongside a sandbox mode where players can create custom events from all content. Both of which can also work alongside restricted and unrestricted online modes. A normal human being is totally capable of enjoying all of these.

There are potentially reasons for keeping online somewhat narrow; a single well-populated online mode that caters to all is probably preferable to a whole lot of perfect online modes that only have a handful of players each. But that argument doesn't apply to single player, where by definition you're playing alone.

Honestly, the pCARS2 career structure as it is now doesn't do too badly. What I think would improve it is adding more ability to be hands-on with the car and make it feel like your own. I think that this is a big part of what makes the caRPG games so engaging; when I have the idea to make a lowered Porsche Cayenne into a race car I can do that and it's :censored:ing awesome.

I haven't voted because I think it's a false dichotomy. Those are not the only two choices available. I don't have to eat chocolate ice cream for the rest of my life, I can have chocolate today, boysenberry tomorrow, and caramel sugar hyper rush the next day. Variety is good.

I did contemplate a "middle ground" option, but I thought that would be too vague as most people do like a bit of both to varying degrees, which would leave the other two choices null.

With trying to be rude, I think you swung and you missed, to be honest. The game is pretty much guaranteed to include both to some extent, and so not acknowledging that from the outset kind of dissociates the poll from the actual game. Painting it as an either/or is not accurate and so any information gained is of dubious use for a game that won't be either/or.

I wonder if you might not have done better to ask what sort of proportion people might see themselves as playing each mode, as that might indicate to SMS how much time they should allocate to development of each type of gameplay. If 95% of the time people are going to be playing sandbox mode, then the team might as well put the bulk of the team on making it the best sandbox mode evar instead of perhaps splitting their talents more equally and ending up pleasing no one. Better to excel in one area than to disappoint in all.

Career modes I've enjoyed include Rally Trophy and GT Legends, the latter being of course one of Ian's previous titles.

I think GT Legends is one of the great underrated racing games. It's remarkably playable even in 2018. Amazing, amazing game.

 

[Chikane_GTR]

Hope pcars 3 has a money system aka like forza/gt i wanna buy my p1 and feel like i own it

 

[Slapped]

There should definitely be a sandbox mode whereby you can access all the content for custom races, championships, online races. In fact if this option is not present in PCARS3 then I won't be buying it as I simply do not have the time to grind.

A lot of us have commitments in life that are a priority over gaming, and for those of us like that who may only have 2 or 3 hours a week to play mostly don't get what we paid for with grinding games as we'll never really have the chance to unlock what we want.

This is what makes the PCARS series and also AC good for people like us as we can pick whatever we want and run with it.

 

[FT-1]

With trying to be rude, I think you swung and you missed, to be honest. The game is pretty much guaranteed to include both to some extent, and so not acknowledging that from the outset kind of dissociates the poll from the actual game. Painting it as an either/or is not accurate and so any information gained is of dubious use for a game that won't be either/or.

I wonder if you might not have done better to ask what sort of proportion people might see themselves as playing each mode, as that might indicate to SMS how much time they should allocate to development of each type of gameplay. If 95% of the time people are going to be playing sandbox mode, then the team might as well put the bulk of the team on making it the best sandbox mode evar instead of perhaps splitting their talents more equally and ending up pleasing no one. Better to excel in one area than to disappoint in all.

I see your point and agree with it - Perhaps knowing the game will include both, a more productive poll would have asked how much time players anticipate to devote to each mode. However, I also think it worth getting an insight into whether people have a strong(er) preference to either style of gameplay and as of writing, the votes are near 50/50 (14/15 in favour of Sandbox), which reflects how split people were in the other thread over which mode they consider as more fun.

While some have understandably said they are unable to vote, the discussions in the thread are also providing meaningful feedback to SMS in what users would like to have available to them.

 

[fernandito]

A lot of us have commitments in life that are a priority over gaming, and for those of us like that who may only have 2 or 3 hours a week to play mostly don't get what we paid for with grinding games as we'll never really have the chance to unlock what we want.

as if those who want unlocking stuff didn't have life commitments as well.

This argument makes me sick. Just ask for the game to continue to its sandbox part, but try not to imply that the rest who want to unlock some stuff are kids without a job and family matters to attend to.

 

[Sick Cylinder]

I didn't vote because I haven't played the career mode in PC1 or 2. I only game for a few hours per week and my priority is trying car and track combinations, plus occasional practise for a league.

It is important for league players to have unlocked content, however I would not mind if some extra liveries were available (on top of a minimum 16 numbered liveries per car). If they were for cars I was interested in this would give me an incentive to play the game.

Custom championships would be my idea of fun and would give me a chance to practise in a more realistic way and try out future online championship ideas.

 

[Imari]

A lot of us have commitments in life that are a priority over gaming, and for those of us like that who may only have 2 or 3 hours a week to play mostly don't get what we paid for with grinding games as we'll never really have the chance to unlock what we want.

I get the impression that you and a lot of other people look down your noses at "grinding" because to you it's merely a gate holding you back from accessing the things that you want.

You should understand that to other people it's an exciting adventure, and that getting to the end is entirely spoiled if you didn't work for it. This is true of every game I've played where I've had to "earn" something. It's not the item itself that gets me excited, it was the journey to get it. I've got a whole story about crafting my first epic in WoW because it took me weeks of farming and trading and bartering favours from people to get it made. It meant something because of all I went through to get it, and it wouldn't still be meaningful to me ten+ years later if some rando had just handed it to me. Likewise when I finish a racing game, of the few that I've actually bothered to complete, it meant something because of the time spent doing it.

I'm not belittling the fact that sometimes people just want to play what's fun for them, I think that makes total sense to pretty much everyone. I haven't seen anyone suggesting that the sandbox parts be taken away. But perhaps you and those like you could stop for a minute and think about what it is that people are really getting out of playing games that offer restrictions. It's not simply making it harder for the sake of being hard. There's a legitimate enjoyment to be had, and while it might not be you maybe you could at least not suggest that those who do enjoy that style of gaming don't also have non-gaming commitments that are important.

 

[Satco1066]

AND !
not
OR

 

[Slapped]

I get the impression that you and a lot of other people look down your noses at "grinding" because to you it's merely a gate holding you back from accessing the things that you want.

Well I've bought the damn game so why shouldn't I have access to the content? Look at it this way with the amount of time that I actually have for video gaming and based on amount of credits I've earned in GTS in the last year it will take me a further 7-8 years of grinding before one of those 20 million credit cars is mine. By that time the servers will have shut down, so not really good value for money for me is it?

as if those who want unlocking stuff didn't have life commitments as well.

This argument makes me sick. Just ask for the game to continue to its sandbox part, but try not to imply that the rest who want to unlock some stuff are kids without a job and family matters to attend to.

Re-read my post before continuing to read this response.

Good, now you'll realise that I didn't actually ask for the self-flagellation mode to be omitted. I simply asked that the sandbox mode remains with all, and I mean all content unlocked.

 

[cjr3559]

I voted ‘sandbox’ but progression is fine too. I just don’t care for everything being locked away behind a massive grind wall. I think PC2 has a good balance between sandbox and career. You really want to participate in that invitational? Then you have to work for it.

 

[fernandito]

Well I've bought the damn game so why shouldn't I have access to the content? Look at it this way with the amount of time that I actually have for video gaming and based on amount of credits I've earned in GTS in the last year it will take me a further 7-8 years of grinding before one of those 20 million credit cars is mine. By that time the servers will have shut down, so not really good value for money for me is it?

..

Good, now you'll realise that I didn't actually ask for the self-flagellation mode to be omitted.

No, you just asked for the I'm the sloth hero who needs everything done mode.

Maybe you should try finding another hobby and quit playing videogames. Try to spend your hard earned money and little spare time you say you have on something more fruitful that suits your nature best. You know, given a massage you don't even need to move. Man that's so great

I simply asked that the sandbox mode remains with all, and I mean all content unlocked.

Online and other modes will be supposed to be lazy ready in the line of sms, worry not. But those who enjoy playing videogames old fashion non-lazy way should get most stuff locked too.

 

[Imari]

Well I've bought the damn game so why shouldn't I have access to the content? Look at it this way with the amount of time that I actually have for video gaming and based on amount of credits I've earned in GTS in the last year it will take me a further 7-8 years of grinding before one of those 20 million credit cars is mine. By that time the servers will have shut down, so not really good value for money for me is it?

Did you bother to read the rest of the post, or did you just lose your rag at the first sentence? Maybe if you got all the way to the third paragraph it might have made more sense.

I'm not belittling the fact that sometimes people just want to play what's fun for them, I think that makes total sense to pretty much everyone. I haven't seen anyone suggesting that the sandbox parts be taken away. But perhaps you and those like you could stop for a minute and think about what it is that people are really getting out of playing games that offer restrictions. It's not simply making it harder for the sake of being hard. There's a legitimate enjoyment to be had, and while it might not be you maybe you could at least not suggest that those who do enjoy that style of gaming don't also have non-gaming commitments that are important.

I know, I know, you're a busy guy with not enough time to play games let alone read a lengthy three paragraph forum post. I'm hoping you made it this far. If you did, well done! But maybe you would have seen that my post actually didn't disagree with you. Which is funny considering the second half of your post was berating another user for doing the exact same.

You should have access to what you paid for. But the game is likely to include both an open and a structured portion, as the last two pCARS games have. For people like you who belittle those would would like to play a more structured or restrictive mode, I thought maybe you could develop some perspective about what other people find engaging about that. You don't have to like it, just maybe understand that while it's not for you that other people enjoy this style of play for good and valid reasons.

Maybe not, you come across as very ranty to be honest. "Self-flagellation mode"? Do you really behave like this with regards to everything that someone else likes and you don't? And you say you're an adult with life commitments?

Take a breath. Have a beer. Other people enjoying stuff does not take away from your enjoyment.

P.S. For what it's worth, I think the Gran Turismo economies since GT5 have been garbage. 20 million credit cars are ridiculous. There's a difference between a structured game mode done well and one done badly. Modern Gran Turismo economies fall dangerously close to micro-transaction levels of engineered annoyance in my view.

Online and other modes will be supposed to be lazy ready in the line of sms, worry not. But those who enjoy playing videogames old fashion non-lazy way should get most stuff locked too.

I think both of y'all could quit ragging on how other people choose to play their escapist fantasy media. Sandbox or structured are both completely valid ways to play a racing game. Neither are lazy. Neither are self-flagellation.

 

[Nismonath5]

I'd quite like something like Gran Turismo 4, in the sense that most of the cars are unlocked and available from the start (provided you have the coin), but there are some cars hidden from the lineup (Like the LM racecars, those were awesome!) That you must unlock.

And because they're hidden, when you do finally unlock them you get that sense of "What's this...? What?!?!? Awesome!!!"

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Jezza819]

Sandbox for me because I have zero patience for careers or grinding. But I wouldn't be opposed to that being part of the game for those people who love to do those things.