Make old cars feel old again in GT7.

[DefNotJake]

I'm currently testing each parameter and their effects of the suspension and tyres in GT Sport for a hybrid/modding guide... if I ever complete it

So it will be interesting to see if the game can be tweaked towards the feel of the big boys on the PC.

For those interested these are the parameters that make up the suspension and tyres:

I don't think making it feel like a simulation is necessarily the way I'd go. As long as you can make the older cars feel believable and fun, while also being playable on controller, you would get something that would be better compared to what we have now .

 

[MIE1992]

I don't think making it feel like a simulation is necessarily the way I'd go. As long as you can make the older cars feel believable and fun, while also being playable on controller, you would get something that would be better compared to what we have now .

Indeed! A wise man once said, "If it's not fun, why bother?"

 

[Tornado]

I always felt the way Forza did it was pretty good, where everything older than 1985-ish handled like absolute garbage and was jittery mess in rigidity, but you could take steps through the in-game tuning to fix it (through chassis stiffening and modern tire compounds/aspect ratios) to handle reasonably well by modern standards.

 

[ScottPuss20]

I always felt the way Forza did it was pretty good, where everything older than 1985-ish handled like absolute garbage and was jittery mess in rigidity, but you could take steps through the in-game tuning to fix it (through chassis stiffening and modern tire compounds/aspect ratios) to handle reasonably well by modern standards.

You really feel like you're "restomodding" the older cars in Forza when you upgrade their components.

I'm also of the belief that tyres should be considered a tuning part rather than a driving option - you can only use the stock factory tyres or an upgraded set that you have purchased specifically for that car. If you were to loan a car, you would only be able to use the factory set. Racing tyres should only be used on a road car when the event regulations say so. For example - the FR Challenge allows the use of "standard" tyres (this depends on the age of the car - '69 Camaro would be on cross-ply whilst an FD RX-7 will be on radial tyres) and "sport" tyres, the Nostalgia 1979 Cup allows for the use of "standard" tyres (racing cross-ply) only, whilst the Carrera Cup and GT3 Challenge allows the use of "racing" (radial) tyres.

 

[TiMcF1]

Also I feel as though tire width/size is not taken into account in GTS. How much contact a tire makes on a road surface. So ignoring downforce for a minute, a SRT viper road car on a slick compound would have lesser grip than a Viper GT3 on with larger tires on the same compound wouldn't it?

 

[BigShamrock]

Indeed! A wise man once said, "If it's not fun, why bother?"

Or why fix if it ain't broken

 

[LeGeNd-1]

I'm currently testing each parameter and their effects of the suspension and tyres in GT Sport for a hybrid/modding guide... if I ever complete it

So it will be interesting to see if the game can be tweaked towards the feel of the big boys on the PC.

For those interested these are the parameters that make up the suspension and tyres:

Love your detective work mate. I look forward to the results of your experiments.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't see a single parameter for tyre pressure in that list? Closest thing would be "TyreSpring". Also there seems to be a LOT of grip modifiers. I don't know if every car uses every parameter but I always feel like the base physics engine in GT doesn't always produce correct performance results, and PD have to bodge the numbers a bit (and even then things are still inaccurate sometimes).

Also I feel as though tire width/size is not taken into account in GTS. How much contact a tire makes on a road surface. So ignoring downforce for a minute, a SRT viper road car on a slick compound would have lesser grip than a Viper GT3 on with larger tires on the same compound wouldn't it?

Yeah this was a theory back in GT5/6. Some MR cars in that game are absolutely evil to drive unless you use a softer tyre compound on the rear to simulate the width difference (e.g. Diablo GT2, R8 LMS). It's not as bad in GTS but MR Gr.3 cars are still way too unstable compared to the real life counterparts. You can cure it by fixing the default setups tho, no need for tyre stagger anymore.

 

[Tornado]

GT5 (and almost certainly GT6) also funneled everything through grip multipliers hidden in the car stats that made it so some cars (and not just older ones) basically handled like trash no matter that you did to try and fix them; since the tires just acted on top of the "base" grip the car had specified.

 

[Skinny McLean]

I don't see a single parameter for tyre pressure in that list?

I've dug out the MoTeC i2 telemetry channel definitions from the game - you know, the stuff we can't export to USB, but that PD included anyway - seemingly tire pressure isn't a thing in GTS (unless they call it "Contact Pressure", which seems really doubtful.)

// List of Gran Turismo Sport MoTeC i2 telemetry channels
// Format: "long name", "short name", "[unit]"

"Vehicle Speed", "VehSpd", "[km/h]"
"G Force Long", "G Long", "[G]"
"G Force Lat", "G Lat", "[G]"
"G Force Vert", "G Vert", "[G]"
"Throttle Pos", "TPD", "[angle%]"
"Brake Press", "Brake P", "[bar]"
"Gear", "Gear", "[]"
"Engine RPM", "RPM", "[rpm]" 
"Wheel Speed FL", "WSpd FL", "[km/h]"
"Wheel Speed FR", "WSpd FR", "[km/h]"
"Wheel Speed RL", "WSpd RL", "[km/h]"
"Wheel Speed RR", "WSpd RR", "[km/h]"
"Susp Pos FL", "SPosHFL", "[mm]"
"Susp Pos FR", "SPosHFR", "[mm]"
"Susp Pos RL", "SPosHRL", "[mm]"
"Susp Pos RR", "SPosHRR", "[mm]"
"Wheel Load FL", "WH L FL", "[N]"
"Wheel Load FR", "WH L FR", "[N]"
"Wheel Load RL", "WH L RL", "[N]"
"Wheel Load RR", "WH L RR", "[N]"
"Contact Press FL", "CT P FL", "[kPa]"
"Contact Press FR", "CT P FR", "[kPa]"
"Contact Press RL", "CT P RL", "[kPa]"
"Contact Press RR", "CT P RR", "[kPa]"
"Tire Tread Temp FL", "T T FL", "[C]"
"Tire Tread Temp FR", "T T FR", "[C]"
"Tire Tread Temp RL", "T T RL", "[C]"
"Tire Tread Temp RR", "T T RR", "[C]"
"Tire Contact Temp FL", "CT T FL", "[C]"
"Tire Contact Temp FR", "CT T FR", "[C]"
"Tire Contact Temp RL", "CT T RL", "[C]"
"Tire Contact Temp RR", "CT T RR", "[C]"
"Steered Angle", "StAngBK", "[deg]"
"Yaw", "Yaw", "[deg/s]"
"Pitch", "Pitch", "[deg/s]"
"Roll", "Roll", "[deg/s]"
"GPS Longitude", "GPSLong", "[deg]"
"GPS Latitude", "GPSLat", "[deg]"
"GPS Altitude", "GPS Alt", "[m]"
"GPS Heading", "GPS Head", "[deg]"

 

[LeGeNd-1]

I've dug out the MoTeC i2 telemetry channel definitions from the game - you know, the stuff we can't export to USB, but that PD included anyway - seemingly tire pressure isn't a thing in GTS (unless they call it "Contact Pressure", which seems really doubtful.)

// List of Gran Turismo Sport MoTeC i2 telemetry channels
// Format: "long name", "short name", "[unit]"

"Vehicle Speed", "VehSpd", "[km/h]"
"G Force Long", "G Long", "[G]"
"G Force Lat", "G Lat", "[G]"
"G Force Vert", "G Vert", "[G]"
"Throttle Pos", "TPD", "[angle%]"
"Brake Press", "Brake P", "[bar]"
"Gear", "Gear", "[]"
"Engine RPM", "RPM", "[rpm]"
"Wheel Speed FL", "WSpd FL", "[km/h]"
"Wheel Speed FR", "WSpd FR", "[km/h]"
"Wheel Speed RL", "WSpd RL", "[km/h]"
"Wheel Speed RR", "WSpd RR", "[km/h]"
"Susp Pos FL", "SPosHFL", "[mm]"
"Susp Pos FR", "SPosHFR", "[mm]"
"Susp Pos RL", "SPosHRL", "[mm]"
"Susp Pos RR", "SPosHRR", "[mm]"
"Wheel Load FL", "WH L FL", "[N]"
"Wheel Load FR", "WH L FR", "[N]"
"Wheel Load RL", "WH L RL", "[N]"
"Wheel Load RR", "WH L RR", "[N]"
"Contact Press FL", "CT P FL", "[kPa]"
"Contact Press FR", "CT P FR", "[kPa]"
"Contact Press RL", "CT P RL", "[kPa]"
"Contact Press RR", "CT P RR", "[kPa]"
"Tire Tread Temp FL", "T T FL", "[C]"
"Tire Tread Temp FR", "T T FR", "[C]"
"Tire Tread Temp RL", "T T RL", "[C]"
"Tire Tread Temp RR", "T T RR", "[C]"
"Tire Contact Temp FL", "CT T FL", "[C]"
"Tire Contact Temp FR", "CT T FR", "[C]"
"Tire Contact Temp RL", "CT T RL", "[C]"
"Tire Contact Temp RR", "CT T RR", "[C]"
"Steered Angle", "StAngBK", "[deg]"
"Yaw", "Yaw", "[deg/s]"
"Pitch", "Pitch", "[deg/s]"
"Roll", "Roll", "[deg/s]"
"GPS Longitude", "GPSLong", "[deg]"
"GPS Latitude", "GPSLat", "[deg]"
"GPS Altitude", "GPS Alt", "[m]"
"GPS Heading", "GPS Head", "[deg]"

Nice work 👍 I think contact pressure is what they are simulating as tyre pressure, but it may be just for a small patch of the tyre that's in contact with the road and not the whole tyre itself. Interesting also that they differentiate between tyre tread and contact temp (maybe core vs surface temp?).

In any case, it's just baffling that the most basic car setup adjustment, something anyone can do even at home, is still missing from GT after 20+ years. Just shows you what their priority is when it comes to simulation...

 

[Knukel]

Also make 4WD cars powerslide again, especially mid-engined road cars!

 

[Keef]

One year and a half ago or more they introduced a somewhat more "bouncy" physics but then they removed it again when they introduced the super understeery physics,idk why since it was so much better

This must have happened before I got the game last summer but it looks fantastic!

It also looks extremely difficult to drive except for the most skilled players. And that's why it was removed - they tested more realistic damping but probably got a ton of complaints from casual players which number far higher than hardcore or skilled players. Keep in mind that PD can't make money by selling a $60 game to a handfull of enthusiasts. There are a ton of regular gamers out there with only basic driving skills and such a model probably through them for a loop. In my opinion it would be a fun challenge and probably punish aggressive driving even more, but in their opinion it just made the game too hard to play and would push even more people toward Forza or something. PD rides a fine line between arcadey games like Forza and difficult simulations like iRacing, which is why we're all on this website as fans of GT. To be successful in this space, Gran Turismo needs to present itself as an accessible simulator, one that's somewhat challenging to play but can also sell millions at $60-$80 rather than the hundreds you can easily spend on iRacing just to spin your stupid Miata repeatedly.

 

[SnakeOfBacon]

Perhaps GT could satisfy both the casual crowd and the hardcore drivers by improving the realism of the tyre and suspension model, while also supplying a few levels of Skid Recovery Force.

 

[Samus]

Perhaps GT could satisfy both the casual crowd and the hardcore drivers by improving the realism of the tyre and suspension model, while also supplying a few levels of Skid Recovery Force.

Nah, they don't need fictional, logic defying aids. The regular, realistic ones are fine. It may be unrealistic to have TCS on a classic car but it's still technically possible, unlike an aid that gives you magic grip when you lose it.

 

[SnakeOfBacon]

Nah, they don't need fictional, logic defying aids. The regular, realistic ones are fine. It may be unrealistic to have TCS on a classic car but it's still technically possible, unlike an aid that gives you magic grip when you lose it.

Alright, I'm convinced. Upon reflection, if a player can't control a Shelby Cobra, they don't need The Force, because that's not going to impart them with the wisdom and skill to drive it, only make it handle like not-a-Cobra. The game can still be accessible to everyone because there are still plenty of other more accessible cars to choose from.

 

[DefNotJake]

Nah, they don't need fictional, logic defying aids. The regular, realistic ones are fine. It may be unrealistic to have TCS on a classic car but it's still technically possible, unlike an aid that gives you magic grip when you lose it.

I would like it if the only way you can use traction control or other driver aids for older cars, is if you buy an upgrade in the tuning shop that installs it... Which then even adds extra weight to the car.

 

[LeGeNd-1]

This must have happened before I got the game last summer but it looks fantastic!

It also looks extremely difficult to drive except for the most skilled players. And that's why it was removed - they tested more realistic damping but probably got a ton of complaints from casual players which number far higher than hardcore or skilled players. Keep in mind that PD can't make money by selling a $60 game to a handfull of enthusiasts. There are a ton of regular gamers out there with only basic driving skills and such a model probably through them for a loop. In my opinion it would be a fun challenge and probably punish aggressive driving even more, but in their opinion it just made the game too hard to play and would push even more people toward Forza or something. PD rides a fine line between arcadey games like Forza and difficult simulations like iRacing, which is why we're all on this website as fans of GT. To be successful in this space, Gran Turismo needs to present itself as an accessible simulator, one that's somewhat challenging to play but can also sell millions at $60-$80 rather than the hundreds you can easily spend on iRacing just to spin your stupid Miata repeatedly.

There is a common misconception among players that realistic = difficult. Realistic physics is intuitive and actually makes it a lot easier to drive, as long as you understand the basic driving principles. Take the MR Gr.3 cars in GT Sport for example. The Huracan/R8 LMS/Ferrari/NSX are notorious for being difficult to drive because of the extreme lift off oversteer. And yet when I drove those in ACC, they are very controllable, and you can actually you use the oversteer to pivot the car around the apex. It's glorious.

We've come along way from the early days of GPL and vanilla rFactor where any kind of slip angle or touching kerbs in the wrong way will immediately mean death. Modern sims are very easy to drive without all the physics quirks that plagues wannabe sims like Forza/GT. The difficulty comes from extracting that last 1-2%, but that's the same for every game (not just racing).

And let's face it, if casual players already find GT difficult as it is, they're not gonna notice if it's a bit more realistic. We have TC, ABS, ASM, AT and even auto brake/steering. If you can't keep a car on the road with all those, then maybe driving games isn't for you. I can't play top down racers like Art of Rally or antigravity racers like WipeOut to save my life, so I just don't play them instead of complaining it's too hard and wish they are brought down to my level

 

[BigSarj]

Why does more realistic handling and controller usage have to be mutually exclusive? For instance, I have never played ACC with a controller but I have read people here say that it is quite doable.

Gran Turismo handles very well on a controller and, of course, even better on a wheel. That's called fantastic optimization.

And I absolutely agree that ACC is not as hard to drive as I had been led to believe. I had read that it is spin out central but when I finally played it, in cockpit view, I was pretty stable. And I'm a noob.

 

[05XR8]

I'll repeat it. ACC, on a DS4, is a dream for me. ABS and TCS make those cars easy. The one car, Maserati Gran Turismo GT4, doesn't have those aids. The car is tougher to drive than cars with aids. However, it's a good car to learn.... Bump that, it's not. That thing is horrible... and I adore it.

Well, anyway, old cars in GTS, look fine in replays. PD need to transfer those attitudes to the controller/wheel/seat-of-the-pants physics.

 

[LeGeNd-1]

I'll repeat it. ACC, on a DS4, is a dream for me. ABS and TCS make those cars easy. The one car, Maserati Gran Turismo GT4, doesn't have those aids. The car is tougher to drive than cars with aids. However, it's a good car to learn.... Bump that, it's not. That thing is horrible... and I adore it.

Well, anyway, old cars in GTS, look fine in replays. PD need to transfer those attitudes to the controller/wheel/seat-of-the-pants physics.

The Porsche 911 Cup Car (not the GT3) and the old Lambo Gallardo (named Reiter Engineering) are also a handful. The Cup Car doesn't have TCS and a lot less downforce. The old Lambo has aids but due to being an older car doesn't have a well sorted chassis. Even so they are still more consistent to drive than some Gr.3 cars in GTS for me.

Driving in the rain, is another entire story. ACC is scary as hell with all the puddles and aquaplaning, but you still can feel the grip. In GT, it's like the whole track is covered with cling wrap and you just have to memorise how much throttle you can give before there's too much wheelspin. And since the track is static, it takes away from the true challenge of rain driving - continuously adapting to the varying grip levels. It's just no fun at all.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

OP: don't forget to turn ABS off. If you're trying to simulate a vintage machine, that's going to be the first step. Now your Cobra will be plenty to handle into turns, as well as during and out of them. You'll really need to start braking in straight lines and also modulating those brakes ...

Edit: I forget if we can disable ABS in this game. And it looks like a few others have already mentioned this, though I don't have time to read the entire thread.

 

[MIE1992]

To add to this, I really do hope we see a "Gr.1V" and "Gr.3V" respectively for vintage prototypes and vintage grand tourers, such as the Ferrari 330 P4 and the Shelby Daytona Coupe. I think there are enough cars for each potential group in GT Sport alone to warrant the creation of these classes, let alone the idea that more cars could be added which would fit into these classes. I could see the Porsche 917 we've seen in the GT7 reveal trailer fitting into "Gr.1V" as well.

 

[Sage Ages]

slipmuA_pointmax
slipmuB_pointmax
sslideA_pointmax

Is this basically just "tire makes X amount of grip at whatever amount of slip" or am I mistaken here?

 

[LeGeNd-1]

OP: don't forget to turn ABS off. If you're trying to simulate a vintage machine, that's going to be the first step. Now your Cobra will be plenty to handle into turns, as well as during and out of them. You'll really need to start braking in straight lines and also modulating those brakes ...

Edit: I forget if we can disable ABS in this game. And it looks like a few others have already mentioned this, though I don't have time to read the entire thread.

Unfortunately PB, the ABS off simulation is messed up again in GT Sport. It was unusable in GT5P, better in GT5, and pretty much perfect in GT6. But in GTS for some reason it went back to GT5P model - even the slightest brake pressure you just lock up the wheel. And unlike in older games, you can't change brake pressure in GTS, only brake bias.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

Unfortunately PB, the ABS off simulation is messed up again in GT Sport. It was unusable in GT5P, better in GT5, and pretty much perfect in GT6. But in GTS for some reason it went back to GT5P model - even the slightest brake pressure you just lock up the wheel. And unlike in older games, you can't change brake pressure in GTS, only brake bias.

Ah okay. Didn't know this. In GT5 or 6 I simply turn Brake Balance to 0/0, otherwise they will lock up, especially in 5. You are right that in 6 non-ABS brakes are easier to work with.

 

[LeGeNd-1]

Ah okay. Didn't know this. In GT5 or 6 I simply turn Brake Balance to 0/0, otherwise they will lock up, especially in 5. You are right that in 6 non-ABS brakes are easier to work with.

Yeah in GT5/6 you have separate sliders for front & rear that goes from 0-10, so you can set relative bias and also brake strength.

In GTS you only have one adjustment from -5 (front bias) to +5 (rear bias), with no way to adjust actual brake strength. For a lot of the older cars, the brakes are way too strong so whatever bias you set it too you will lock up. There are no parts upgrades either (only % sliders for power and weight) so if you have fully tuned a road car, they will be horribly under-braked and have the stopping distance of Titanic. It's a GT game where it's best to just leave cars stock basically. I don't mind it so much but that's the reason why a lot of the older fans are saying it's not a "true" GT game.

 

[MIE1992]

I just noticed that when you account for two of the Pebble Beach winners yet to be added to the series - the Maserati A6GCS and the Cunningham C4-R - and two vintage race cars that've been added in GT Sport - the Jaguar D-Type and the Aston Martin DB3S - you get an interesting quartet of cars with a common factor: all four competed in the 1954 24 Hours of Le Mans! I'm hoping that if all four cars appear in GT7, there'll be a new group just for these 1950s racers, rather than having them placed into Gr.X. This is in addition to the hopes there's a group for a "Gr.1V" and "Gr.3V," respectively for cars like the Ferrari 330 P4 and the Shelby Daytona Coupe.

 

[05XR8]

PDphysics™

 

[unfairlane]

Well, unpopular opinion here, but when you drive old cars daily, or some heavy track work, do you use old tyres as they are? I guess not, for safety and tire wear concerns. Maybe you would fit the latest road, or if you take it to the track, new track tyres. Unlike hardcore simulators such as GT Legends(which heavily focus on historic reenactions), in Gran Turismo, the old can live with the new. We have seen the McLaren F1 GTR(from 1995) in Group 3 and the Mazda 787B(from 1991) in Group 1 competing with the latest sports cars. To better fit those cars within current motorsport restrictions, they should be somewhat 'modernized', like using current motorsport-grade tyre compounds or modern Anti-Roll Bars. That said, I still get why you are so upset about enabling ABS on a 60s muscle car since you wouldn't get them in the dealership as is; although it wouldn't hurt if ABS and TCS are available as separate 'upgrades' in GT Auto like it did in the first 2 games.

EDIT: Maybe I get the tire tread issues as well; you should get period-correct road and race tyres(for example, for a Dodge Challenger R/T '70 (it is from 1970, but I will count it as a 60s car as the car started production late '69), the tyres would be like; CH/CM/CS/SH 60s/SM 60s/SS 60s/SH/SM/SS/RH 60s/RM 60s/RS 60s/RH/RM/RS/RSS/Wet 60s/Intermediate Wet/Heavy Wet/Dirt/Ice), but only for those who are eligible for those tyres(cars built in-period). That said, upgrades to modern tires should still be available and should retain their characteristics like in other GT games.

Agree. "Period-correct tyres" might do well as long as the car is in a museum but should not be used on any open road. 60`s musclecars typically had tiny Firestone Redline fitted. (that`s diagonal-tyres!) Not suited for any kind of roadsport.

About GT Legends; that game was necer even close to be a "sim". Some of the worst car-physics ever made. Like 185-tires on a C2 corvette, 225-tires on the Mk1 Cortina a.s.on. The engine-files power-curves was like drawn by a two year old with spasms.

As someone who has done 30+ track events and spent 1000s of hours in sims, I can say GT7s physics engine is about 90% there, but misses out in two major areas. First one being when you're right at the edge of grip and the second being when you're beyond it. I drive an e92 m3 IRL and for having 400hp+, it's way more progressive in losing grip and controllable than GT7. I can almost steer the car with the throttle when I'm at the edge of rear grip. In GT7 that's impossible. Once traction breaks, it requires much more steering angle than IRL and much less throttle than IRL. It also snaps the opposite direction way too easily, which is why you see videos of players swinging from left to right. The tire takes much longer to regain traction as well. This is more noticeable in the rain events. I'm almost tempted to not use the wheel as it will develop a bad habit in my driving.

Just my 2 cents.

You are spot on sir!

 

[Scaff]

Agree. "Period-correct tyres" might do well as long as the car is in a museum but should not be used on any open road. 60`s musclecars typically had tiny Firestone Redline fitted. (that`s diagonal-tyres!) Not suited for any kind of roadsport.

Not even close to true.

Period correct racing tyres are very much real, and mandated by a good number of vintage motorsport bodies, the MSA and FIA for example mandate Dunlop Vintage tyres, and yes that includes Cross-Ply, which is what I assume you are referring to by 'diagonal tyres. In many cases the tyres have to also be both road legal and totally period correct.

Post Historic & Vintage tyres

Dunlop Racing Tyres

Dunlop Racing Tyres - 204 Compound Dunlop Racing are the MSA eligible cross ply tyres. Dunlop Racing Tyres online

www.longstonetyres.co.uk

https://historicdb.fia.com/sites/default/files/regulations/1639746704/2022_appendix_k_yearbook_web_sans_annexes_20211217.pdf