Manhunt 2 Refused classification in England = first banned game in 10 years

[Silverzone]

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSN1920623320070620

It was also rated "Adults Only" in the U.S which will probably greatly harm sales.

http://gamepolitics.com/2007/06/19/breaking-manhunt-2-rated-adults-only-by-esrb/

I don't understand why Rockstar is so shocked over this. They did what they set out to do, make an overviolent game that "pushes the envelope" of violence in games. It is also notable that part of the reason for the reaction is due to the Wii version's motion capabilities. Leading critics to call Manhunt 2 the Ultimate murder simulator. Personally, I think Rockstar made a bad move. The sales (judging off of the original manhunt) were probably not going to be very strong in the first place, now the game will be out of major retailers, and much harder to obtain. Not the smartest move profit wise.

opinions?

 

[Solid Fro]

I don't believe it was because of the Wii version's motion controls. Both the Wii and PS2 versions were banned in the UK and have AO rating in the US. It's the content in the game, not the controls.

Rockstar isn't stupid. I wasn't interested in the game before, but now with all of the attention, I want it.

 

[FoolKiller]

I don't believe it was because of the Wii version's motion controls. Both the Wii and PS2 versions were banned in the UK and have AO rating in the US. It's the content in the game, not the controls.

But the controls are what many critics are citing when they discuss the game. They say that you have to "act out the violence." They've obviously never played a Wii game. I slash people up with a sword in Zelda all the time, yet my motions resemble nothing close to a sword fight. And I have yet to qualify for the PGA or the NFL, but I am "acting out" those controls as well. Anyone who has played any game on the Wii knows that there will be little, if any, actual acting out of violent acts.

Rockstar isn't stupid. I wasn't interested in the game before, but now with all of the attention, I want it.

Oddly, my first thought was, "I have to check this out."

The thing is that everyone is saying an AO rating means retailers won't touch it. Remember when anything over an R rating meant retailers and theaters wouldn't touch a movie? I can go almost anywhere and find Showgirls (NC-17 version). Now you can get NC-17 movies off and on all the time. Someone will carry the game and those who want it will get it. Any smart retailer will have it available and will check ID. The controversy this stirred up will make this game popular.


Of course, I have an issue with an AO rating, because before now it was generally held for sexually explicit, pornographic games. Suddenly a game, which would have gotten an R as a movie, is getting the equivelant of an X-rating. This rating should be distinguishable from pornographic somehow.


Although part of me wonders if thi isn't a ploy by the ESRB to show that their system "works" in hopes of backing off political pressures and keeping them from being a hot topic election issue. Best Buy is already using a second ratings organization's system in their stores, so maybe they are trying to save their own necks here and the game isn't really all that much.

 

[Tornado]

Any smart retailer will have it available and will check ID.

I believe within minutes of the re-rating of San Andreas to AO, everyone stopped selling it, period; so I doubt the far-less-successful Manhunt franchise will be any different.

 

[DuckRacer]

Well, looks like they'll have to censor it up (which they will) or have to make a PC port:

http://www.joystiq.com/2007/06/20/nintendo-and-sony-wont-touch-manhunt-2-with-ao-rating/

 

[FoolKiller]

I believe within minutes of the re-rating of San Andreas to AO, everyone stopped selling it, period; so I doubt the far-less-successful Manhunt franchise will be any different.

That was for sexually explicit (pornographic) material and Rockstar pulled it themselves.

The San Andreas situation was equivelant to finding out Faces of Death has a clip from a porno in the bonus features and this situation is like finding out that Faces of Death is......Faces of Death.

If we are going to give porn ratings to violence then I can list a ton of movies that should be x-rated.

I have no doubt that Take Two will tame this down, but if it were me I woudl challenge the ESRB on this. There is no ESRB rule or law stating retailers can't sell AO rated games. The ESRB is trying to duck out of the political spotlight when they have received much criticism, but Take Two and Rockstar need to push back. They did nothing wrong and suddenly people are making it out to be they were trying to sell guns to kids with an included hit list of people to kill.

As for countries banning the sale of the game, I say to hell with them. Last I checked Ireland and England both chose their leaders in elections and if this game has any quality to it, not just senseless violence, then a reaction will be made.


I know the outcome here will be the same thing the gaming industry has always done, run off with their tales between their legs until it is safe to come out again. Take Two and Rockstar have so far not done that and if they chose to stand tall here I would buy the game just to support them.

[/soapbox][/rant]

 

[Tornado]

There is no ESRB rule or law stating retailers can't sell AO rated games.

No, there isn't. But if the retailers themselves have a policy of not stocking AO rated games (which is why San Andreas was dropped in places like Wal-Mart before Rockstar removed the offending code, and it was dropped during the short time the game was rated AO before Rockstar pulled it themselves), the lack of a law making such practice mandatory is moot. There doesn't have to be a law because many stores voluntarily refuse to stock games with the rating.
I understand your point on that perhaps the rating was unfair, but since when did AO only mean because of sexually explicit scenes? Just because San Andreas was re-rated because of Hot Coffee does not translate to "Adults Only only exists because of porn," and it more likely means that Hot Coffee was the straw that broke the camel's back. Movies aren't always rated NC-17 because there is sex in them, and in some cases movies are rated as such because of violence alone, so your "Porn ratings to violence in movies" comparison really doesn't apply.

I have no doubt that Take Two will tame this down, but if it were me I woudl challenge the ESRB on this.

Challenge them on what? The ESRB's interpretation of the rating system they developed? Rockstar has no grounds to do so but weak precedent. The precedent established, that has been very highly criticised, I remind you, is that the ESRB rates games AO for sexual explicit stuff only and not violence, may have just been broken for all we know.
I personally am not surprised that the ESRB finally rated a game AO for violence alone, and I was also in the camp that the original Manhunt probably should have been rated AO in the first place. Had the original game been a movie it would have gained an NC-17 rating no problem, and if the second one takes it farther than no one should be surprised that the ESRB grew some and rated it purely on violence alone.



All that being said, banning the game outright was, and always will be, a ridiculous option to take. It implies that even adults can't make decisions for themselves and that even they need to be protected from this game, which is laughable.

 

[FoolKiller]

I think the real thing is whether AO is comparable to x-rated or NC-17. You are correct that the ESRB's definition is basically the same as NC-17.

ADULTS ONLY
Titles rated AO (Adults Only) have content that should only be played by persons 18 years and older. Titles in this category may include prolonged scenes of intense violence and/or graphic sexual content and nudity.

However, the fact that nearly all major retailers won't touch AO suggests that they consider it equal to an x-rating, because, Wal*Mart aside, most places will carry NC-17 movies. I know I've seen Showgirls and numerous unrated straight-to-video DVDs, some which would have definitely garnered NC-17 or worse (American Pie: The Naked Mile comes to mind) in stores that also carry video games.

The industry has made AO out to be worse than NC-17, which leaves only one other rating. I have no problem adding more degrees of ratings, but you need to place the line between gore and pornographic somewhere since society has determined there is a difference. If AO is truly the same as NC-17 then the industry needs to make that clear and retailers need to treat it as such.

To me I would consider any game of this degree of violence to be on par with House of 1000 Corpses (or even worse B films), and you can give it an NC-17 like rating, but I would not treat it like House of 1000 Whores, which is what I believe is being done here.

By challenge the ESRB I mean that they could sell the game as is, and even offer it up for sale on their own site. The ESRB did everything in their power to stop the game from being sold, and it seems to be a political ploy and nothing more. The ESRB knows that despite their definition AO is treated as if it were pornographic. Challenge that power and offer it to retailers, and then sell it directly from your own Web site. Find some way to make it easily available for adults to purchase, so they don't have to drive 100 miles to the nearest independent gaming store.

In my mind the loss in profits would be worth it.

 

[Tornado]

Okay. I saw X-Rated and thought "NC-17" before remembering that they were two different things.

 

[McLaren]

I have no strong clues on the story of Manhunt 2, but if any of these govt. officials actually read the story to this series, they might understand the violence.

I'll briefly show Manhunt 1's.

Spoiler for Manhunt.
In that game, the main character, James, is being sentenced to Death Row, but instead of being injected by lethal means, a snuff film director bribes the doctor to inject an experimental substance, hinted to be heavily linked to drugs. Afterwards, The Director (as called), uses the substance to cause Jack to murder and kill the Gangs of Carcer City (vigilante-like) for the snuff films with the help of corrupt cops, and do his bidding.
[/end]

Basically, not under his own decision, the main character is forced to do his violent crimes, or be killed by the crooked police cheif of Carcer City. In better terms, either he does the gruesome murders for the director's film, or be killed himself.

This is not an excuse for the game's way, but if given thought, it should tell you why this happens. The story isn't telling you to do it, just to do it, and get through the game. It's telling you to do it, or find yourself be killed instead, and to progress to see whether or not your fate lies like The Director's enemies you kill, or you manage to survive on your own.

Of course, I don't know, as said, how exactly Manhunt 2 will go, or if it'll project its story in the same way, so I'm only assuming right now, it'll have some sort of reason behind it. All I know, though, is your character plays in asylum at the beginning after being injected with the same substance.

I know this will also, not really portray to thread's topic, but I'm posting in hopes maybe some of you will understand the plot of Manhunt and why govt. officials might want to take time to read a bit as to why a violent game goes down its path.

EDIT*
Apparently, the U.K. isn't done yet.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/6768695.stm

 

[V1P3R]

I wouldn't expect anything less from rockstar... Normally I wouldn't waste my time with anything from them but I've played the original manhunt on the PC and well. I too had first thought "hmm... I might have to check this out" when I saw the title of this thread.

 

[Tornado]

Apparently, the U.K. isn't done yet.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/6768695.stm

That was a farce, and a very stupid thing for the developers to do in the first place. There was no need to use the image off-hand, and it would have been just as easily to make one up.

 

[Omnis]

This would be a huge deal if Manhunt didn't suck.

 

[niky]

I don't get ratings at all.

As sleazy as the sex industry is, I struggle to see why "naked human" and "coitus" (which we see all the time on National Geographic, but not necessarily together) is as bad, or, as ratings boards are tellings us, worse than taking some guy's head off with an axe.

I thought Christians were supposed to go forth and multiply? And not kill... despite what the Puritans have ingrained into the national psyche.

 

[FoolKiller]

That was a farce, and a very stupid thing for the developers to do in the first place. There was no need to use the image off-hand, and it would have been just as easily to make one up.

Ever watch Law & Order? Law & Order is all about "torn from the headlines." The TV show is big on taking high profile news stories and making shows out of them, so this is no surprise to me.

Although, were I the game developer I probably would have just created one to avoid what would be an obvious PR issue. You can easily deny a kidnapping story is based on any one case, but when you throw in an actual image from an actual case that just gets messy. I don't know if it is considered public domain, but it is probably a public file if it was used as part of a criminal investigation, which means that legally there is no issue here. However, the ethical issue is a different story. But I think this is more non-story than anything. They'll switch out the picture and the game will be back on shelves in no time.

It makes me wonder how little it takes to ban a game though.

This would be a huge deal if Manhunt didn't suck.

It would have more attention if Manhunt didn't suck, thats' for sure, but the importance of censorship, whether it is of independent produced crap or high quality products, is no different.

My main issue is with the game getting banned because no matter what it contains an adult should be allowed to make their own decision. My beef with the ESRB is that I think they are making a political move to save themselves from being a target in the upcoming elections.

Honestly, pandering to the Jack Thompson crowd can never end well.

I don't get ratings at all.

As sleazy as the sex industry is, I struggle to see why "naked human" and "coitus" (which we see all the time on National Geographic, but not necessarily together) is as bad, or, as ratings boards are tellings us, worse than taking some guy's head off with an axe.

I agree. That said people do see a difference between graphic violence and graphic sex and I think creating a seperate rating for extreme graphic violence so that it doesn't get lumped in with tamer Mature/R-ratings or into the AO/X-rating category would be a good idea.

[/quote]I thought Christians were supposed to go forth and multiply? And not kill... despite what the Puritans have ingrained into the national psyche. [/QUOTE]
I am going to assume your Puritan comment was about the sex thing and not the going out and killing, because I can't find any Christian denomination that teaches going out and killing.

As for the going forth and multiplying thing and the prudishness of Christians, well the idea of not committing adultery and not coveting your neighbor's wife has been around long before Christianity (see Ten Commandments). Go forth and multily refers to married couples and sex for mating purposes, not fun. I don't know if you noticed but Israel right now is up in arms about an ad campaign showing a girl in a bikini, which they have called pornographic. Trust me, the national psyche in the US is far from the most prudish.



As for my hopes that Rockstar would go forward with the game Game Politics has two stories posted; one is how Rockstar is still standing behind their game but GP thinks they will have to tame it down anyway. The other is about Nintendo and Sony both having long-standing policies that they will not license AO-rated games for their systems. So, is Manhunt 2 so bad that it can't be played by anyone? Is that what the ESRB has just said?

My take on this is that Nintendo and Sony have every right to say what they want their own product to be associated with. They drew a line and they will stand behind it. My issue is that the ESRB knows this policy exists and I truly believe that if they weren't currently under the political hot lamp right now they wouldn't have given it an AO-rating. They are pandering to uninformed politicians and insane lawyers. 👎

 

[Tornado]

Ever watch Law & Order? Law & Order is all about "torn from the headlines." The TV show is big on taking high profile news stories and making shows out of them, so this is no surprise to me.

Don't get me wrong: I'm not saying that the image fit in the game. But to use such a sentimental and controversial image seemingly just for the sake of doing so, whether they had no legal problems or not, is pretty bad taste in my opinion; and in any case it was asking for trouble. I imagine that if the same thing would happen in America the government would side with the mom here as well.

 

[FoolKiller]

Don't get me wrong: I'm not saying that the image fit in the game. But to use such a sentimental and controversial image seemingly just for the sake of doing so, whether they had no legal problems or not, is pretty bad taste in my opinion; and in any case it was asking for trouble. I imagine that if the same thing would happen in America the government would side with the mom here as well.

I agree it was bad taste, although I doubt if the result would be the same in the US. We stand by freedom of expression pretty strongly around here.

 

[xAkirax2004]

Rockstar isn't stupid. I wasn't interested in the game before, but now with all of the attention, I want it.

Haha, yes!

I loved the first one, and if this ones considerably more brutal according to the ratings boards, I'm on it like white on rice.

 

[Tornado]

We stand by freedom of expression pretty strongly around here.

That is true (I shouldn't have said government), but once an ambulance chaser lawyer with political aspirations cathes wind of something like that, the fear of lawsuit and negative publicity (legitimate negative publicity, mind you. Not the stuff that helps Rockstar sell GTA games) garnered by whoever has the (for lack of a better phrase) sob story is almost always enough to get a game publisher to back down.

 

[FoolKiller]

That is true (I shouldn't have said government), but once an ambulance chaser lawyer with political aspirations cathes wind of something like that, the fear of lawsuit and negative publicity (legitimate negative publicity, mind you. Not the stuff that helps Rockstar sell GTA games) garnered by whoever has the (for lack of a better phrase) sob story is almost always enough to get a game publisher to back down.

The developer would back down, but there woud be no banning or mandates to pull it off shelves.

Honestly, I'm surprised it got noticed, especially since the Law & Order games are some of the most boring games in existence.


In an update on the Manhunt 2 issue (all coming from Game Politics):

The leader of Parliament, Keith Vaz, has accused the video game industry of lacking social responsibility, citing Manhunt 2 and Law & order. So I guess he missed the entire section of eductaional and family friendly games while he was doing his research? Silly me, I expected a politician to do research before making accusations and spewing his BS.

An Italian official is moving to have the game banned there as well. What is it with European governments and suddenly acting like they think their adults can't make decisions for themselves? Or are they making the same errors that American offcials do and think that it is a children's toy.

And Vince Desi, a designer for the Postal series, had an interview on Gamespot.

Whether I or any other developer or gamer likes, loves, or hates Manhunt 2 is not the issue. The real issue is we as an industry allow ourselves to be set up. I’m a big fan of the ESRB, I think in general they do a great job.

The dilemma is that while we are supposedly a free society… the fact is government, hypocritical politicians, and the media dictate directly and indirectly who wins and loses, or who gets to play, so to speak. Does Hillary really have a clue?

…I think there is a need for both [ESA & ESRB], but I agree I would prefer them to be independent, and I truly believe it would be more helpful to our industry. Clearly it would improve their credibility. RWS has always supported both groups, regardless of how we’ve been scapegoated in the industry…

The video game industry is too easy for [politicians] to complain about, and with a presidential election next year I can only imagine the pseudo talking points we’ll be hearing. It could be the only issue the Democrats and Republicans agree upon.

I bolded the part that is the same thing I have been saying. I'll expand: No one cares about the kids, just the votes the parents will make.


And finally, Take Two is suspending production of Manhunt 2 on the Wii and PS3. They didn't mention the PC version. I wonder if I need to upgrade my graphics card. Maybe I'll just buy it and give it to some kid as a Christmas present.

 

[livemusic]

I've read they suspended its release for all platforms.

 

[Silverzone]

I've read they suspended its release for all platforms.

Wikipedia says It's suspended on everything.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manhunt_2

 

[FoolKiller]

I've read they suspended its release for all platforms.

Wikipedia says It's suspended on everything.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manhunt_2

From Game Politics

In the wake of this week’s Manhunt 2 meltdown, Take Two has issued this statement regarding the game’s status:

Take-Two Interactive Software has temporarily suspended plans to distribute Manhunt 2 for the Wii or PlayStation platforms while it reviews its options with regard to the recent decisions made by the BBFC and ESRB.

We continue to stand behind this extraordinary game. We believe in freedom of creative expression, as well as responsible marketing, both of which are essential to our business of making great entertainment.

This was posted at 3:08am, so unless Take Two has revised their statement since then I will go with this.


Where does Wiki say everything?

Manhunt 2 is a video game by Rockstar Games and the sequel to 2003's Manhunt. The game was scheduled to be released for the Wii, PlayStation 2 and PlayStation Portable on July 2007,[1] but has been temporarily suspended by Take-Two following a wave of government bans and an AO rating in the United States

Whoever wrote that didn't even mention the PC version.


I have a new idea. Make an M-rated version and then in a year-six months release a "special unrated director's cut." Lord knows I've run across a couple of those in movies that have bordered on late night Cinemax material.

 

[Silverzone]

Meh, I sure hope the get this all settled. I really want to play this I actually liked the first one. In all reality, an AO is like a ban on a console game because of the Sony and Nintendo's policies. (I read Microsoft has a similar policy) So couldn't the AO rating be deemed a form of censorship?

 

[FoolKiller]

In all reality, an AO is like a ban on a console game because of the Sony and Nintendo's policies. (I read Microsoft has a similar policy) So couldn't the AO rating be deemed a form of censorship?

DING DING DING!!!! We have a weiner, I mean winner!

This has been half my point all along. The other half being that it was done purely as a political move.

 

[V1P3R]

dOOds... uh... it's teaching/encouraging people to be serial killers in detail (at least that's what I got from the first one). Of course it's going to be banned regardless of the rating.

 

[Silverzone]

DING DING DING!!!! We have a weiner, I mean winner!

This has been half my point all along. The other half being that it was done purely as a political move.

yeah, sorry about that. My mind is so bleh right now that it took me that long to come to that conclusion. This sucks. Rockstar will probably have to tone it down because the UK isn't backing down, and an appeal to the ESRB is inprobable. Gawd, this is great publicity though.

makes me wonder if they already have a lot of units made.. July 10th is only 3 weeks away. maybe there will be a possibility of an ebay bootleg! actually, what the hell would they do with all that useless stock...

 

[V1P3R]

I have a hard time with why you all are dissappointed. I mean come on... It's those retards Rockstar... What did they/you expect?? :cough:gta:cough:

 

[FoolKiller]

makes me wonder if they already have a lot of units made.. July 10th is only 3 weeks away. maybe there will be a possibility of an ebay bootleg! actually, what the hell would they do with all that useless stock...

Well, if the ESRB just rated it then I can only assume they just got the finished copy sent out to them. I don't think mass-producing a game disc takes very long. I know I've seen videos of CDs being made where they are running down a conveyer belt in a factory.

I know you can buy mass DVD burners for offices that can make 100 copies in no time. So, I can only assume an industrial assembly can do it much, much faster.

So they may not have had any stock made yet. If they did it was just discs because the packaging has to have the ratings code on it and discs are realatively cheap. I will admit I don't know what a UMD or BD disc would cost to make.

 

[Silverzone]

I have a hard time with why you all are dissappointed. I mean come on... It's those retards Rockstar... What did they/you expect?? :cough:gta:cough:

Well, I know it's a bit shocking, but I thought Manhunt was pretty badass. and this one looks a lot like the suffering, which I also liked. I also heard you can cut testicals off. Thats a pretty big factor too.

and on Rockstar, they may not be very smart, but i havent really played something of theirs i didnt like

Well, if the ESRB just rated it then I can only assume they just got the finished copy sent out to them. I don't think mass-producing a game disc takes very long. I know I've seen videos of CDs being made where they are running down a conveyer belt in a factory.

I know you can buy mass DVD burners for offices that can make 100 copies in no time. So, I can only assume an industrial assembly can do it much, much faster.

So they may not have had any stock made yet. If they did it was just discs because the packaging has to have the ratings code on it and discs are realatively cheap. I will admit I don't know what a UMD or BD disc would cost to make.

Ah, yeah, I had no idea how they did that.