Manhunt 2 Refused classification in England = first banned game in 10 years

[FoolKiller]

I have a hard time with why you all are dissappointed. I mean come on... It's those retards Rockstar... What did they/you expect?? :cough:gta:cough:

For the record, I never played Manhunt and didn't like any of the GTA games. The GTA games were well done, however and show that Rockstar are anything but retards. I also had no intention to play Manhunt 2, until now.


What I expected was people to act like sensible adults and good political leaders and not treat their citizens like 3-year-old children who don't know how to chose for themselves.

I am not in an uproar about this because I am disappointed I won't get to play the game. Heck, I might buy it and turn around and give it away to support the company.

I am in an uproar because censorship of any sort is wrong. This isn't being banned because it will warp your mind and turn you into a serial killer, it is being banned because these uninformed idiots think it is being marketed to children as a toy. This shows me that two things need to be done:

1) People need to realize that video games are not primarily for children andmore than television and music is.
2) Since the primary market is adults video games should be based on whatever subject matter they want them to be and the adult audience can choose to play them or not, just as they can choose to watch a movie or not.

Rockstar made a game that a certain niche of people would like to play. No matter what you think of that group of people, they have the right to play that game.

 

[Silverzone]

For the record, I never played Manhunt and didn't like any of the GTA games. The GTA games were well done, however and show that Rockstar are anything but retards. I also had no intention to play Manhunt 2, until now.


What I expected was people to act like sensible adults and good political leaders and not treat their citizens like 3-year-old children who don't know how to chose for themselves.

I am not in an uproar about this because I am disappointed I won't get to play the game. Heck, I might buy it and turn around and give it away to support the company.

I am in an uproar because censorship of any sort is wrong. This isn't being banned because it will warp your mind and turn you into a serial killer, it is being banned because these uninformed idiots think it is being marketed to children as a toy. This shows me that two things need to be done:

1) People need to realize that video games are not primarily for children andmore than television and music is.
2) Since the primary market is adults video games should be based on whatever subject matter they want them to be and the adult audience can choose to play them or not, just as they can choose to watch a movie or not.

Rockstar made a game that a certain niche of people would like to play. No matter what you think of that group of people, they have the right to play that game.

Greatly put. +Rep

I think the AO rating should either be abolished, or the consoles should accept AO rated material to avoid this problem. It will in no doubt happen again.

 

[V1P3R]

Well, I know it's a bit shocking, but I thought Manhunt was pretty badass. and this one looks a lot like the suffering, which I also liked. I also heard you can cut testicals off. Thats a pretty big factor too.

and on Rockstar, they may not be very smart, but i havent really played something of theirs i didnt like

Cut nuts off eh... so... how did the first one not get banned too?

Well and that's the thing... I don't think anyone wouldn't like a stripper or prostitute if they weren't illegal. (wow... I can feel a banned coming on. )

What I expected was people to act like sensible adults and good political leaders and not treat their citizens like 3-year-old children who don't know how to chose for themselves.

I am not in an uproar about this because I am disappointed I won't get to play the game. Heck, I might buy it and turn around and give it away to support the company.

I am in an uproar because censorship of any sort is wrong.

Well... considering there are some adults that really are children still you can't say how you'd like it to be. I learned that recently. This is reality and you have to deal with that not how you'd LIKE it to be. There are children that don't know any better too.

1) People need to realize that video games are not primarily for children andmore than television and music is.
2) Since the primary market is adults video games should be based on whatever subject matter they want them to be and the adult audience can choose to play them or not, just as they can choose to watch a movie or not.

Rockstar made a game that a certain niche of people would like to play. No matter what you think of that group of people, they have the right to play that game.

Umm... see no... again I believe they went the route they did because they know it will sell and they don't care who gets it as long as they get the $$.

Video games have never been for kids to me. Besides the obvious games ei racing or games based off movies, etc. They were always aimed at adults. Granted maybe your definition of "adults" is different than mine but it's more like when was there a game aimed at children? Hell... same goes for any entertainment like tv. Adults have been kidding themselves, convincing themselves, and everyone else that they've got a clear separation, but they don't and probably never will.

 

[Silverzone]

Cut nuts off eh... so... how did the first one not get banned too?

The first one wasn't that bad I didn't think. It certainly didn't have any form of castrating in it though.

 

[V1P3R]

Not that bad? I didn't think Postal had anything on ManHunt.

 

[Silverzone]

Not that bad? I didn't think Postal had anything on ManHunt.

well, It was pretty bad. It didn't really phase me though is what I meant.

 

[FoolKiller]

Well... considering there are some adults that really are children still you can't say how you'd like it to be. I learned that recently. This is reality and you have to deal with that not how you'd LIKE it to be. There are children that don't know any better too.

I'm not saying how I would like it to be I am saying what is one of the founding ideals of this (US) country, freedom of expression. There is a reason why no video game law restricting certain games has stood up to Constitutional scrutiny in a court of law. I also have the belief that freedom of expression is a right of every human, even if your government has made it illegal.

And the argument of some adults still are children thing is weak. We don't stop them from drinking alcohol or smoking and that is a physically altering chemical substance. If they are so unstable that they will seek an overly violent video game and then become a serial killer themselves then I would say that they probably shouldn't ever be left under their own supervision.

Umm... see no... again I believe they went the route they did because they know it will sell and they don't care who gets it as long as they get the $$.

Oh wait, the evil corporation doesn't care about it scustomers, even though they are the people that pay their salaries and ignoring them is bad business, argument. Even if Rockstar were these completely unethical guys you make them out to be they would care because if they did market it for kids many retailers would protest by refusing to carry any of their games.

Video games have never been for kids to me. Besides the obvious games ei racing or games based off movies, etc. They were always aimed at adults. Granted maybe your definition of "adults" is different than mine but it's more like when was there a game aimed at children? Hell... same goes for any entertainment like tv. Adults have been kidding themselves, convincing themselves, and everyone else that they've got a clear separation, but they don't and probably never will.

Um, I can think of plenty of games aimed at children, probably the entire section under "children's games." And when gaming first became popular it was sold as a toy in the toy section. I still know a few stores that keep them in the toy section.

 

[V1P3R]

I think this guy from another forum sums up better what I was trying to say. It's edited a bit for context though, he was replying to someone's post.

Rockstar's games exist solely for controversey. Sure, the tech demo they released as Table Tennis for the 360 is an exception, but look at their lineup. Grand Theft Auto. Manhunt. Bully. These are not games for mature adults. These are games for immature people to do immature things. Kill hookers, shoot cops, steal cars. This is not a sign of maturity. I've worked at EBGames. You know who most of those games were bought for? Children. Bought by adults who didn't want to hear how bad a video game's content was. Typical was adult who said "It's just a ****ing video game" when buying GTA San Andreas for their twelve year old, who often asked if this was the "Hot Coffee" version. I've actually had adults threaten me for refusing to sell the game to their child. "Why do I have to be here? It's just a ****ing video game. If you ever tell my kid he can't buy a videogame again, we're going to have words."

And that's what Rockstar's function is. To create games that the immature and socially rejected will enjoy. I'm sick of people waving the whole "games for adults" crap in my face about GTA or Manhunt. Bullcrap. Like the tobacco industry, they are marketed to appeal to children under the guise of being for adults. And I call bull**** on Rockstar. They're the worst thing to happen to the video game industry in the last decade.

On top of what he said though... it's the "kids" that pressure the parents to buy it for them so they can either shut the kid up or make him/her look cooler than their friends. Hence why some adults are still children.

 

[Sureboss]

As for countries banning the sale of the game, I say to hell with them. Last I checked Ireland and England both chose their leaders in elections and if this game has any quality to it, not just senseless violence, then a reaction will be made.

[/soapbox][/rant]

The government hasn't had any involvement with the banning of the game or (m)any games have they?

 

[niky]

Ever watch Law & Order? Law & Order is all about "torn from the headlines." The TV show is big on taking high profile news stories and making shows out of them, so this is no surprise to me.

Although, were I the game developer I probably would have just created one to avoid what would be an obvious PR issue. You can easily deny a kidnapping story is based on any one case, but when you throw in an actual image from an actual case that just gets messy. I don't know if it is considered public domain, but it is probably a public file if it was used as part of a criminal investigation, which means that legally there is no issue here. However, the ethical issue is a different story. But I think this is more non-story than anything. They'll switch out the picture and the game will be back on shelves in no time.

It makes me wonder how little it takes to ban a game though.



It would have more attention if Manhunt didn't suck, thats' for sure, but the importance of censorship, whether it is of independent produced crap or high quality products, is no different.

My main issue is with the game getting banned because no matter what it contains an adult should be allowed to make their own decision. My beef with the ESRB is that I think they are making a political move to save themselves from being a target in the upcoming elections.

Honestly, pandering to the Jack Thompson crowd can never end well.


I agree. That said people do see a difference between graphic violence and graphic sex and I think creating a seperate rating for extreme graphic violence so that it doesn't get lumped in with tamer Mature/R-ratings or into the AO/X-rating category would be a good idea.

I thought Christians were supposed to go forth and multiply? And not kill... despite what the Puritans have ingrained into the national psyche. [/QUOTE]
I am going to assume your Puritan comment was about the sex thing and not the going out and killing, because I can't find any Christian denomination that teaches going out and killing.

As for the going forth and multiplying thing and the prudishness of Christians, well the idea of not committing adultery and not coveting your neighbor's wife has been around long before Christianity (see Ten Commandments). Go forth and multily refers to married couples and sex for mating purposes, not fun. I don't know if you noticed but Israel right now is up in arms about an ad campaign showing a girl in a bikini, which they have called pornographic. Trust me, the national psyche in the US is far from the most prudish.



As for my hopes that Rockstar would go forward with the game Game Politics has two stories posted; one is how Rockstar is still standing behind their game but GP thinks they will have to tame it down anyway. The other is about Nintendo and Sony both having long-standing policies that they will not license AO-rated games for their systems. So, is Manhunt 2 so bad that it can't be played by anyone? Is that what the ESRB has just said?

My take on this is that Nintendo and Sony have every right to say what they want their own product to be associated with. They drew a line and they will stand behind it. My issue is that the ESRB knows this policy exists and I truly believe that if they weren't currently under the political hot lamp right now they wouldn't have given it an AO-rating. They are pandering to uninformed politicians and insane lawyers. 👎[/QUOTE]


RE: yes, I was referring to the prudishness of the Puritans. Yes, I know that Americans are not the most prudish society (not in a world where a Muslim woman can get a couple of lashes for showing a bit of limb), but merely in this context.

It would be nice if they did fix those darn ratings.

 

[FoolKiller]

Nintendo stands by their no AO games, but tells Rockstar they will be happy to take an M-Rated version.

http://www.joystiq.com/2007/06/27/noas-reggie-fils-aime-talks-manhunt-2-ao-titles/

 

[Tornado]

Okay, before entering this debate I wasn't aware of Sony and Nintendo's policy (well, Sony's at least) of not allowing AO games. So nullify everything I said that is not about how the game probably deserved an AO rating, such as the ESRB not really having much power.

 

[livemusic]

http://kotaku.com/gaming/manhunt-2/manhunt-2-lands-m-rating-for-halloween-release-293084.php

Manhunt 2 Lands M Rating for Halloween Release

It's official, it was all a publicity stunt. OK, maybe not, but Take-Two just announced that after months of hand-wringing and "We don't know if this game will ever see the light of day" the once AO-rated Manhunt 2 has dropped to an acceptable level of sex and violence and secured a Wal-Mart viable Mature rating for a Halloween release of the game.

While the press release on the jump is full of all sorts of jubilant quotes and drops phrases like "powerful piece of interactive story telling" and "extraordinary game", I suspect this wasn't much of a surprise to Take-Two and the Rockstar folks. Why else would they have continued to display the game and give press hands-on time with it if it wasn't going to make the cut.

What I'd really love to know is what exactly they cut to make the rating drop. I suspect it will be one or two levels that were easy to dispose of for little or no expense.

Manhunt 2 Receives "M" Rating
ESRB rating assignment clears the way for October 2007 North American release

New York, NY - August 24, 2007 - Rockstar Games today announced it will release Manhunt 2 for the PlayStation®2 computer entertainment system, PSP® (PlayStation®Portable) system, and the Wii™ home video game system from Nintendo in North America on October 31, 2007. This announcement follows the submission of a modified version of Manhunt 2 to the Entertainment Software Rating Board (ESRB), who has now rated the title "M" for Mature for ages 17 and older.

In June, Take-Two was compelled to suspend the release of the horror title when the ESRB issued an AO (Adults Only) rating.

"Manhunt 2 is important to us, and we're glad it can finally be appreciated as a gaming experience," said Sam Houser, founder and executive producer of Rockstar Games. "We love the horror genre. Manhunt 2 is a powerful piece of interactive story telling that is a unique video game experience. We think horror fans will love it."

"Manhunt 2 is an extraordinary game, and we eagerly anticipate its release in North America," added Strauss Zelnick, Chairman of Take-Two.

Manhunt 2 is the debut title from the newly formed Rockstar London studio, which is developing the game in conjunction with series creator Rockstar North. Early previews of Manhunt 2 have consistently praised the game's original design and creative use of narrative, tone, and atmosphere to evoke an experience many consider unmatched in video games. The Wii version is being developed by Rockstar Toronto.

Video games rated Mature are for consumers ages 17 and older and are not intended for children. Along with the Mature rating, the ESRB also assigned the following content descriptors to Manhunt 2: Blood and Gore, Intense Violence, Strong Language, Strong Sexual Content and Use of Drugs.

Rockstar Games is a publishing label of Take-Two Interactive Software, Inc. (NASDAQ: TTWO).

 

[FoolKiller]

They caved. Money first, revolution later.

 

[V1P3R]

👎

 

[Danoff]

People get so worked up about "the kids". Bottom line is that many products are adult-only, and that kids will get access to these products because there will always be bad parents - that's not a justification for banning entirely. If it were, there would be no alcohol because of underage drinking, there would be no R rated movies because children below 17 watch them, and there would be no cars because children under 16 could drive them.

I don't care if it's marketed to children. I don't care if people see similarities to "big tobacco", cigarettes and certain video games are restricted to adults and that has to be good enough. Yes, some children will use them, but the only other alternative is to treat us all like children.

 

[DuckRacer]

IGN previewed the M-rated version of Manhunt 2 and noted these differences.

But there have been some unfortunate content omissions, too. When we first wrote about Manhunt 2, we referenced a particularly nasty death sequence, in which Danny could use a pair of pliers to literally rip the testicles off a hunter. That murder has been completed removed from the updated build of the game. Not a big deal for us, as it only amounts to one kill out of dozens. Danny can still saw into the heads of enemies, or bludgeon them with a blunt object, or stab them, or use a syringe on them, or even use the environments to take them out. In one sequence, Danny uses a sewer cap to decapitate a hunter, at which point the enemy's body fell into the sewer hole.

The biggest and most disappointing change relates to the major death strikes. When Danny sneaks up on an enemy, gamers can hold the A button down, at which point they will be given the option to pick from three different murder animations (on Wii, they get to act them out with Nintendo's motion-sensitive controllers). In the AO-rated build of Manhunt 2, we could clearly see these over-the-top and horrific animations. In the M-rated version, Rockstar has added both an extreme blur effect and in most cases darkened the graphics so that it is nearly impossible to make any sense of what is going on. Players will be able to see character movement, blood splatters, and sometimes they may catch a glimpse of an identifiable action (for example, Danny jamming nails into the legs of a chair-bound opponent), but mostly it's guesswork - a garbled, motiony mess that's far less satisfying. This truth is doubly unfortunate because both everything else is unchanged and because these death strikes are what gamers will want to work toward; they're the pay off for a job well done, but now the pay off is not nearly as rewarding.

Our reactions to these maneuvers really speak volumes. The first time we played Manhunt 2, everybody in the office was very outspoken one way or the other about the grotesque Wii-motion-enhanced kills. (On-screen cues tell players to jab left or right with the Wii remote, to pull up or down with both controllers, etc., and only after the gestures are made does the animation continue.) Onlookers were crying out and laughing and several people were in awe of the game's brutality. But with the updated build, we couldn't fully identify what was going on. We could see movement and hear disgusting noises, but if Rockstar had told us Danny had just decapitated a hunter or strangled him instead, we'd have to take its word for it. Not to suggest that these sequences are completely ruined - they aren't. They're still fun to perform and some of the animations - especially when they're in well-lit rooms where more of the movement can be recognized - are still satisfying and entertaining.

http://wii.ign.com/articles/819/819465p1.html

 

[DustDriver]

They ruin a perfectly good game, because all the stores sell these games to anyone, without asking for an ID to verify the age.

I bought manhunt last week, and it's fun to play.
It's more of a strategy game with bloody kills as a reward.

You aren't going to watch a hardcore horror movie where they blur all the horrific scenes.
because, what's the point of watching a blurred mess?
It's cheaper to make a cd with the noises, so you can listen to them while you're playing pokemon

 

[V1P3R]

Only on the Wii?

 

[DuckRacer]

Only on the Wii?

...?

 

[FoolKiller]

...?

I don't think he realizes it will also be a PS2 and PC game.

 

[V1P3R]

Which is not "next gen"...

 

[FoolKiller]

Which is not "next gen"...

Does it matter if it sells well? At this point I think the next gen concern is the least of their worries.