Margaret Thatcher dies aged 87

[Danny]

It's incredibly hypocritical to be happy of the death of one of them, then turn around and complain that "lefties" or "righties" are happy the other one died.

It's also incredibly presumptuous to assume that everyone who isn't throwing a god-damn street party at the death of an old woman is some hypocrite who apparently baked a cake because Hugo Chavez died.

 

[MarinaDiamandis]

Losing your job in a city is one thing, losing your job when the mine closes along with everyone else, and with no alternative employment, is a lot different. It did lead to the early deaths of many, not lives that needed to end so soon, but many felt there was little left.

I understand that, as part of my family are from Yorkshire and were dependant on the mining industry there before it all went downhill. From what I hear from them, it sounds like their community was much more willing to go down with the ship than make changes and seek work elsewhere - to the point that when they (my relatives) decided to pack up and move south, they were called scabs and had bricks thrown through windows, etc.

An interesting point, and largely dependant on location. Thatcher would be on top from pembroke dock to the Severn bridge I'm sure.

In inner cities you probably wouldn't see the same result.

Might do a bit of Googling later and see if anything like it already exists.

 

[Famine]

Losing your job in a city is one thing, losing your job when the mine closes along with everyone else, and with no alternative employment, is a lot different. It did lead to the early deaths of many, not lives that needed to end so soon, but many felt there was little left.

I mentioned this same point earlier, but there's an interesting sidebar...


Thatcher managed to put about 145,000 miners out of work in the three terms and eleven years of her prime ministership, cutting numbers from 235,000 in 1979 to 90,000 in 1990 - a 38% reduction. The previous PM was Labour's Harold Wilson. In his two spells in office (1964-1970; 1974-1979) and eleven years, he cut the number of miners employed by the state to 235,000 from over 650,000 in 1964 - a 36% reduction.

Wilson also closed more mines, shutting 260 to Thatcher's 154 (another 50 were closed between 1970 and 1974 by Heath's government).

 

[ExigeEvan]

I understand that, as part of my family are from Yorkshire and were dependant on the mining industry there before it all went downhill. From what I hear from them, it sounds like their community was much more willing to go down with the ship than make changes and seek work elsewhere - to the point that when they (my relatives) decided to pack up and move south, they were called scabs and had bricks thrown through windows, etc.

I'm assuming they moved mid-strike? It's all well and good joining the unions and benefiting from them in the good times, but when people distance themselves when times get tough it turns into a boiling point of hatred for those that remain loyal. But violence shouldn't have happened.

Might do a bit of Googling later and see if anything like it already exists.

It's not a poll, but just trawling local newspaper websites should give you some idea. The South Wales Evening Post covers Carmarthen, Swansea, Neath and Bridgend. It's Daily Mail Lite in many ways.

http://www.thisissouthwales.co.uk/M...tory-18676498-detail/story.html#axzz2QT9ShoOY

I mentioned this same point earlier, but there's an interesting sidebar...


Thatcher managed to put about 145,000 miners out of work in the three terms and eleven years of her prime ministership, cutting numbers from 235,000 in 1979 to 90,000 in 1990 - a 38% reduction. The previous PM was Labour's Harold Wilson. In his two spells in office (1964-1970; 1974-1979) and eleven years, he cut the number of miners employed by the state to 235,000 from over 650,000 in 1964 - a 36% reduction.

Wilson also closed more mines, shutting 260 to Thatcher's 154 (another 50 were closed between 1970 and 1974 by Heath's government).

Which comes back to my point that it wasn't the fact the mines were closed, but the way it left the communities after. Unemployment rates were vastly different after Wilson's cuts and Thatchers.

1979 - 5.7%
1985 - 11.7%
1990 - 5.8%

'64-'70 rates barely hit 2.5%.

 

[Müle]

It's also incredibly presumptuous to assume that everyone who isn't throwing a god-damn street party at the death of an old woman is some hypocrite who apparently baked a cake because Hugo Chavez died.

When did I do that?

 

[MarinaDiamandis]

I mentioned this same point earlier, but there's an interesting sidebar...

Or we could always just... blame MacGregor? Yes, blame Canada!

I'm assuming they moved mid-strike?

From what I remember they stuck it out until early 1985, by then they knew they had no future where they were so packed up and left.

 

[Zenith]

Both of them tried to make their country better. Both of them were controversial and pissed off a lot of people. Other than the fact that they were on opposite ends of the political spectrum, there's not much difference between them.

It's incredibly hypocritical to be happy of the death of one of them, then turn around and complain that "lefties" or "righties" are happy the other one died.

Replace "pissed off a lot of people" with "completely disregarded the human rights of an entire country, caused the deaths of hundreds (of not thousands) of people, and caused the undue suffering of millions more" for Chavez. Apparently that's an insignificant detail...

 

[Famine]

Which comes back to my point that it wasn't the fact the mines were closed, but the way it left the communities after.

As I said, I mentioned that earlier.

Unemployment rates were vastly different after Wilson's cuts and Thatchers.

1979 - 5.7%
1985 - 11.7%
1990 - 5.8%

Worth noting that those figures seem to argue that Thatcher's cuts had no long-term effect on unemployment, with the numbers returning to pre-pit-closure figures just five years later.

'64-'70 rates barely hit 2.5%.

Yet 1974-1976 rates - Wilson's second term (well, third and fourth, technically!) - peaked at 5.5%. Higher if you include Jim Callaghan's 6.8% peak after he took over the Labour leadership.

In fact Wilson inherited an unemployment rate of 1.6% in October 1964 and, aside from small dips in the following two summers, pushed it up consistently to 2.5% (peaking at 2.8%) by the time Heath was elected. Ted Heath returned to him an unemployment rate of 2.7% (though it had peaked at 4.2% in February 1972 - during the miner's strike) and it was already double that at 5.4% when he resigned in April 1976. Callaghan handed over a 5.4% rate to Thatcher - after a peak in the 6-7% range through 1977.

Fighting miners' strikes saw Thatcher's early years hit ludicrous highs of 14% in 1982 - and 1981 through to 1988 inclusive were crap years, running above 10% for most of the time. The biggest single Thatcher year for pit closures was 1985 - 36 pits closed - which saw 12.0% out of work in January and 11.7% in December, with the year constantly running 11.4-12.0% unemployment.


One of the arguments for shutting the coal mines was the lack of profitability and the cost to the nation - at the expense of some short term pain. She certainly delivered both, as unemployment was almost exactly the same when she left as when she took over, with a short term doubling in the middle, leaving a GDP 35% higher than when she took over (for comparison, Wilson did +13% in his first stint, then Heath +11%, Wilson managed 0% in his second stint [no growth in two years], Callaghan +10%, Major +18%, Blair +35%, Brown -3% and Cameron +1.4% so far).

 

[Liquid]

Just posted this in the Britain thread; it probably should be here instead.

Thatcher. I was born a few months after her premiership ended, but I am a keen reader of history and politics on both a national and local level. You can add North Wales to South Wales/Yorkshire/Nottinghamshire in a list of places badly affected by her policies. North Wales, a geographical region comprising of pretty much Wrexham and innumerable miniscule communities, and which has the lowest income per capita per head in the entire country, relied on both slate and coal and once they went, unemployment soared. This has heavily swayed local and regional opinion on her legacy.

And personally, I believe it boils down to the argument of "It wasn't taking away the work, it was taking away the work and having nothing to replace it". Communities divided, died or became derelict. Stagflation is a major problem here.

What irks me in particular is the fact that for an entire 18 month period, the press, especially the right-wing press, has championed journalistic freedom and anti-censorship movements, yet wail at the first notion of publicising something which doesn't fall into line with their ideology. Ding Dong The Witch Is Dead. And so is freedom of the press, because it's only free when it suits the publication in question, it seems. Not that it's without its problems, but I applaud the BBC everyday for doing what it does. It's one of the few outlets that publishes articles which report criticism of itself.

Anyway, we could argue the toss on Thatcher all day. ANC, Section 28, Pinochet.