Mass shooting at Madden tournament in Jacksonville

[PocketZeven]

You imagine? It happens a lot more than you think. Should he have shot them? They were unarmed, they didn't resist. That's like saying the police should shoot first then ask questions later.

No it isnt. The police doesnt ask questions first and then shoot them.

If you have a firearm, what prevents your attacker from having a firearm as well?

that goes back to my example. Would you be more comfortable being locked in a room with everybody having a gun or nobody having one?

 

[PocketZeven]

double

 

[ImaRobot]

I understand by owning a weapon makes you feel safe, but on the flipside you are forcing the criminals to arm as well. And note I am talking about the situation in my country and not USA.

A criminal saw me purchase a weapon, so he decides to get one himself? I'm going to be renowned in the criminal world as the victim with a gun, and they're going to warn the others to approach me with a gun as well?

Me owning a gun will alter nothing, as it's likely that no one but myself is going to know, in my opinion. On top of that, with all the firearms you're talking about in the US, there has not been one altercation/fight that I've been that I thought "Man I could have used a gun at that point" so it's more likely that it's something that wont have to be used as often as you might think, making it even less known to those criminals. That isn't deterring me from wanting one just in case that situation ever arises, though. Never say never.

That being said, I'm in an interesting situation my self concerning owning a gun. I would like to own one, but my other have would feel unsafe having one in the house. So this kind of piqued my interest.

Yes I understand that Police will come, but explain to me how you having guns protects you from crime and has it ever protected you or friends/family?

It's all just preparation in my case. If I buy a gun but never, ever have to use it, than that's an ideal situation. However, I'd rather be prepared for that hypothetical situation if it ever arises. Even if I was in a country in which gun-related crimes were low, I would still rather own one and never use it, than run into a situation where it would have been ideal having one.

If you have a firearm, what prevents your attacker from having a firearm as well?

Nothing. Not having one doesn't change that either though, does it?

 

[Danoff]

Yes I understand that Police will come, but explain to me how you having guns protects you from crime and has it ever protected you or friends/family?

I've never had to use my guns. Although one has come out of the safe in a very tense situation. It was not used or even known about, but it was ready.

It turns out that if you have a gun, and you get attacked, you can actually get that gun out and use it if needed against the attacker. Even just attempting to use can stop the attacker. Even just making a noise with it, like a pump action or chambering a round, can prevent an attack. Even just announcing it can do so.

Here's how a gun can protect you. Someone is attacking you, and you shoot them. That's just one example scenario.

We do have rape and murder in our country. But explain to me how, by owning a gun can one prevent it from happening.

It turns out that you can shoot someone who is trying to rape or murder you and that can actually prevent them from doing it.

When it is already happening you wont have time to run to your safe and punch in the securitycode to get your guns.

I can get my guns faster than you think.

If law-abiding Civilians own a gun, criminals will also need to protect themselves from law abiding civilians with a gun.

Actually criminals prefer to find targets that are unarmed. Crime benefits from an imbalance of the ability to produce force. Criminals don't look for situations where they're on equal footing with someone they want to victimize. It's hard to get much leverage over someone with even a small gun, no matter how big yours is.

Yet it does not reflect to a lower crimerate then the Netherlands, where guns are illegal without a permit.

Our non-gun crime is pretty staggering here.

Edit:

I just spent some time on youtube looking for good 911 calls of people who shot intruders while on 911. There are some great examples and I just can't post them. They're too... disturbing. I just watched home surveillance camera of a guy break through a door carrying a machete and get shot after entry. Uh... it's not fun to watch. If you care, you can google tons of examples of people saving their lives and the lives of their family.

 

[PocketZeven]

I've never had to use my guns. Although one has come out of the safe in a very tense situation. It was not used or even known about, but it was ready.

It turns out that if you have a gun, and you get attacked, you can actually get that gun out and use it if needed against the attacker. Even just attempting to use can stop the attacker. Even just making a noise with it, like a pump action or chambering a round, can prevent an attack. Even just announcing it can do so.

Here's how a gun can protect you. Someone is attacking you, and you shoot them. That's just one example scenario.



It turns out that you can shoot someone who is trying to rape or murder you and that can actually prevent them from doing it.



I can get my guns faster than you think.



Actually criminals prefer to find targets that are unarmed. Crime benefits from an imbalance of the ability to produce force. Criminals don't look for situations where they're on equal footing with someone they want to victimize. It's hard to get much leverage over someone with even a small gun, no matter how big yours is.



Our non-gun crime is pretty staggering here.

Edit:

I just spent some time on youtube looking for good 911 calls of people who shot intruders while on 911. There are some great examples and I just can't post them. They're too... disturbing. I just watched home surveillance camera of a guy break through a door carrying a machete and get shot after entry. Uh... it's not fun to watch. If you care, you can google tons of examples of people saving their lives and the lives of their family.

How many rapes are prevented by guncarriers annually? How many murders are prevented by guncarriers annually? To prevent these crimes one would need to carry a gun all the time.

I get why you would think that way. The reality is owning a gun does not lead to a safer environment according to the statistics.

 

[TexRex]

Would you be more comfortable being locked in a room with everybody having a gun or nobody having one?

That's a rather different scenario than the one you presented before.

I wouldn't be comfortable locked in a room at all, but being locked in a room with others is likely to create anxiety for all parties and that anxiety is likely to cause a descent into anarchy and the presence of firearms is sure to make that situation worse.

The scenario you previously presented was one in which everyone was armed, sans the locked room. I wouldn't be comfortable in that situation because I'm not even comfortable with everyone who has been permitted to drive--there are entirely too many idiots in the world.

Fortunately neither situation is reality.*

Nothing. Not having one doesn't change that either though, does it?

Not when it isn't terribly difficult for anyone to acquire one, it doesn't.

*Edit to add.

 

[PocketZeven]

That's a rather different scenario than the one you presented before.

I wouldn't be comfortable locked in a room at all, but being locked in a room with others is likely to create anxiety for all parties and that anxiety is likely to cause a descent into anarchy and the presence of firearms is sure to make that situation worse.

The scenario you previously presented was one in which everyone was armed, sans the locked room. I wouldn't be comfortable in that situation because I'm not even comfortable with everyone who has been permitted to drive--there are entirely too many idiots in the world.


Not when it isn't terribly difficult for anyone to acquire one, it doesn't.

I might have misquoted myself there.

 

[Danoff]

How many rapes are prevented by guncarriers annually?

At least 1.

 

[PocketZeven]

At least 1.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/more-guns-do-not-stop-more-crimes-evidence-shows/
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/do-guns-make-us-safer-science-suggests-no/
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/3/23/17155596/gun-ownership-polls-safety-violence
https://www.theguardian.com/science/blog/2013/mar/25/guns-protection-national-rifle-association
https://law.stanford.edu/2015/10/12...do-not-support-claim-that-guns-make-us-safer/

 

[Danoff]

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/more-guns-do-not-stop-more-crimes-evidence-shows/
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/do-guns-make-us-safer-science-suggests-no/
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/3/23/17155596/gun-ownership-polls-safety-violence
https://www.theguardian.com/science/blog/2013/mar/25/guns-protection-national-rifle-association
https://law.stanford.edu/2015/10/12...do-not-support-claim-that-guns-make-us-safer/

It is the fundamental dichotomy between the US and Europe.

You want me to sacrifice my rights for some perceived greater good. I do not owe it to anyone to do so.

 

[PocketZeven]

It is the fundamental dichotomy between the US and Europe.

You want me to sacrifice my rights for some perceived greater good. I do not owe it to anyone to do so.

I did not. I told you specifically that you should keep your guns. As long as you have a permit, there is no need for you to give away or sell your guns. But I do want it harder for people to obtain them.

 

[Danoff]

I did not. I told you specifically that you should keep your guns. As long as you have a permit, there is no need for you to give away or sell your guns. But I do want it harder for people to obtain them.

Did we not just have a long drawn out discussion about how me having guns is responsible for gun crime? I feel like we just had a lengthy discussion about that.

I agree with you that they should be harder to obtain. Actually I think a lot of gun owners agree with that. I'll even give you an example to back that up.

My buddy has 3 kids. He was gifted a rifle from his parents. He didn't want a rifle, his wife didn't want a rifle, but he has a rifle because he didn't want to turn down the gift. So naturally he's super lazy about storage. He didn't want a gun in the first place, so he just throws it on top of a cabinet (or somesuch, I know he keeps it somewhere high). Storing it up high is great for keeping it out of the hands of a 2 year old. But a 4 year old can get to the top of a cabinet if they really want to.

He's an accidental gun owner. He's never fired it, doesn't know how to use it, doesn't want it in the house, doesn't store it properly, and has kids in the house. He is the absolute picture-perfect example of an irresponsible gun owner. I have no illusions that he's the only one either. He represents what has to be a decent statistical population. I find it inexcusable. Actually I'm going to send him an instant message right this second to check on whether he has proper storage yet. Basically, his story should never happen in this country.

Edit:

Nope, not properly stored yet.

 

[McLaren]

I understand by owning a weapon makes you feel safe, but on the flipside you are forcing the criminals to arm as well. And note I am talking about the situation in my country and not USA.

That's a load of rubbish and you know it. Criminals aren't armed to defend themselves, they arm in attempt to have an advantage over their victims.

I don't recall robberies being successfully pulled off with these bad boys.

 

[TheGeologist]

Take away the guns and they'll pick up knives.

Take away the knives and they'll throw bombs.

Take away the bombs and they'll drive trucks into people.

Take away the trucks and they'll hurl rocks.

etc, etc. Taking away a class of weapon only prompts use of another weapon class. And trust me, it doesn't change much when people are violent.

YOU BETTER NOT TAKE MY ROCKS AWAY!

 

[PocketZeven]

That's a load of rubbish and you know it. Criminals aren't armed to defend themselves, they arm in attempt to have an advantage over their victims.

I don't recall robberies being successfully pulled off with these bad boys.

I didnt write that. If the victim probably has no gun, a knife will suffice. If the victim likely is carrying a gun, the criminal at least has to carry one too.

 

[Danoff]

If the victim likely is carrying a gun, the criminal at least has to carry one too.

If the victim is likely carrying a gun, the criminal is going somewhere else*.

*Except when they're high out of their minds, in which case they'll apparently attack someone with a gun using a machete and get themselves killed.

 

[PocketZeven]

If the victim is likely carrying a gun, the criminal is going somewhere else.

Then why is there so much crime in the USA?

 

[Danoff]

Then why is there so much crime in the USA?

I don't know, why is there so much crime in your country? Or any country?

Maybe you meant, why is there more crime in the USA than your country? Because surely it follows from my statement that wider spread gun ownership should lead to reduced crime.

But that doesn't follow from what I said.

 

[PocketZeven]

I don't know, why is there so much crime in your country? Or any country?

Maybe you meant, why is there more crime in the USA than your country? Because surely it follows from my statement that wider spread gun ownership should lead to reduced crime.

But that doesn't follow from what I said.

read the links I posted. There is no proof that owning a gun makes you safer. Even if you compare within europe there is no concernable difference in crime between finland/switzerland and other countries. Thus owning guns make no real difference in your safety. I have not seen any statistic that shows that civilian gunownership prevents crimes.

There are however far more mass shootings (on topic) in the usa then anywhere else in developed countries.

 

[McLaren]

I didnt write that. If the victim probably has no gun, a knife will suffice. If the victim likely is carrying a gun, the criminal at least has to carry one too.

Yes you did by stating a criminal is forced to arm themselves if an normal person is armed. You’re doing it in this post.

Criminals carry weapons for advantage. That’s why you’re told to give up your belongings instead of fighting, hell you’ve conceded this point. Criminals already know in this country a civilian better have a damn good reason for discharging in the name of self defense.

 

[PocketZeven]

Yes you did by stating a criminal is forced to arm themselves if an normal person is armed. You’re doing it in this post.

Criminals carry weapons for advantage. That’s why you’re told to give up your belongings instead of fighting, hell you’ve conceded this point. Criminals already know in this country a civilian better have a damn good reason for discharging in the name of self defense.

But I didnt claim it was to defend themselves as you stated. I was saying exactly what you are saying. Criminals arm themselves to have an advantage over their victims. The more armed a potential victim is, the more the criminal need to arm themselves to keep an advantage.

 

[Danoff]

read the links I posted. There is no proof that owning a gun makes you safer. Even if you compare within europe there is no concernable difference in crime between finland/switzerland and other countries. Thus owning guns make no real difference in your safety. I have not seen any statistic that shows that civilian gunownership prevents crimes.

There are however far more mass shootings (on topic) in the usa then anywhere else in developed countries.

None of that means that criminals preferring unarmed targets should mean reduced crime in the US.

 

[PocketZeven]

None of that means that criminals preferring unarmed targets should mean reduced crime in the US.

But I thought the line of thought was that owning guns prevent crimes. Wasnt that the reason you have guns?

 

[rono_thomas]

But I thought the line of thought was that owning guns prevent crimes. Wasnt that the reason you have guns?

Not the way I understand it. Its about having the right to defend yourself.

 

[ImaRobot]

But I thought the line of thought was that owning guns prevent crimes. Wasnt that the reason you have guns?

I have a feeling most people that purchase guns aren't doing it to be some sort of crime fighter, actively going out in search of it. If and when I make a decision to, it'll be to be able to protect myself or others in a particular situation, if there's an actual need to.

 

[Danoff]

But I thought the line of thought was that owning guns prevent crimes. Wasnt that the reason you have guns?

No. I own guns so that I can defend myself if someone commits a crime against me.

 

[PocketZeven]

Not the way I understand it. Its about having the right to defend yourself.

Not owning a gun doesnt take that away.

 

[Danoff]

Not owning a gun doesnt take that away.

It takes away the means.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Not owning a gun doesnt take that away.

I daresay the odds of protecting yourself successfully are quite a bit higher if you have a firearm than they are without it.

 

[rono_thomas]

Not owning a gun doesnt take that away.

It kinda does in the bigger picture. Whats the biggest deterrent?