Mass shooting in Southern Texas Church

  • Thread starter ryzno
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rono_thomas
Thats a huge number. But as a percentage of population I figure its pretty small.
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It's 80:1 apparently for self-defense vs. homicide. Although, I'm not sure what the numbers are for self-defense vs. gun-related crimes. A gun can be used in a crime without being fired, just like it can be used in self-defense without being fired. And in both cases it can be fired, and hit someone, without resulting in death. I'm not sure what apples to apples should be here. Are we comparing likelihood of using a gun to defend yourself against likelihood of being killed by a gun? Or likelihood of using a gun to defend yourself against likelihood of a gun being used against you.

I'm not actually sure that we track crimes in which a gun was used without being fired. It was difficult for researchers to figure out how often guns are used (including without being fired) in defense.
 
rono_thomas
Do Americans fear that without bearing and keeping weapons the free state is likely to change?
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If Texas wanted to separate from the Union do you think the federal government would just send in some jack booted thugs and start stealing the ballot boxes while beating and abusing innocent civilians?
 
Danoff
It's 80:1 apparently for self-defense vs. homicide. Although, I'm not sure what the numbers are for self-defense vs. gun-related crimes. A gun can be used in a crime without being fired, just like it can be used in self-defense without being fired. And in both cases it can be fired, and hit someone, without resulting in death. I'm not sure what apples to apples should be here. Are we comparing likelihood of using a gun to defend yourself against likelihood of being killed by a gun? Or likelihood of using a gun to defend yourself against likelihood of a gun being used against you.

I'm not actually sure that we track crimes in which a gun was used without being fired. It was difficult for researchers to figure out how often guns are used (including without being fired) in defense.
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I’m trying to work out an argument that would convince me to need/want a gun. Not being American I find it hard to understand, but thats not me saying ban them.
Johnnypenso
If Texas wanted to separate from the Union do you think the federal government would just send in some jack booted thugs and start stealing the ballot boxes while beating and abusing innocent civilians?
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I know nothing of American politics but I would doubt it very much.

That being said if the federal government wanted to prevent independence does either side being armed make eithers case stronger?
 
rono_thomas
I know nothing of American politics but I would doubt it very much.

That being said if the federal government wanted to prevent independence does either side being armed make eithers case stronger?
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The government side is going to be armed regardless. Texans can secede from the union if they wish to. Catalonians may also want to secede but were prevented from even voting on the matter, in part because they could not defend themselves and there was no risk to military intervention on the part of the government. There would be a price to pay if the same intervention were to occur if Texans were having a vote on whether to remain in the union. More than likely, that price would prevent the federal government from intervening in the first place on a military level.
 
rono_thomas
I’m trying to work out an argument that would convince me to need/want a gun. Not being American I find it hard to understand
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I don't want or need a gun yet fully support people having them. I also don't want or need a boyfriend, yet fully support gay marriage.

Just because you support someone's right to do/own something doesn't mean you have to actively take part in whatever it is.
 
rono_thomas
I’m trying to work out an argument that would convince me to need/want a gun. Not being American I find it hard to understand, but thats not me saying ban them.
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Average 911 (emergency call) response time for a high priority call (meaning, the stuff is hitting the fan right now get your rear ends here), is about 10 minutes. That varies a lot depending on where you live. If you live in a suburb with relatively little activity and lots of funding for police, it might be less. If you live in the country it might be a LOT more. If you live in a city with a lot of activity, it could be more as well.

I know a lot of people in the US who do not own guns, just don't want them in their house at all and can't imagine using one. I also know a lot of people that have one or two guns locked away out of mind. I personally have 6, including 2 rifles that would probably be considered "assault rifles" by some. But my scenario is really the scenario of someone who has one or two guns for self defense that are locked away out of mind. My other guns are all antiques, none of which I own any ammo for and have no intention of firing.

By in large the people who own a gun or two for self defense, which sit in a dusty safe, are people who want to be able to do something if needed during that 10 minutes before the police arrive. It's a contingency scenario that is not expected to ever be used. It doesn't cost much, and it allows you to take back some level of control over your personal safety. That's the thinking that I have most often encountered.

There are, of course, others. Some people enjoy guns for recreation and entertainment. Some people are doomsday preppers. Some people are into concealed carry, etc. But for "regular" folk, it's just comforting to know that they have a little bit of power over their safety.
 
Listening to these arguments is convincing, it is clear that it is Country specific, and the vast majority dont buy guns to murder.

So where does it breakdown ? (Trying to get back to topic)

Where does Americas Murder/Crime rate stem from?
 
rono_thomas
I’m trying to work out an argument that would convince me to need/want a gun. Not being American I find it hard to understand, but thats not me saying ban them.
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It's perfectly fine to not have a need or a want for a gun. It gets sticky when people who don't have a want or a need also want others who do have a want and need to make them give up their right to do so on a difference of opinion. Pro gunners don't care if you choose to arm yourself or not.
 
Northstar
We have quite a few big cities, and those are usually hot beds for gangs.

For instance, Chicago has had 560 shooting deaths this year alone, and that's not even close to the record set last year.

http://heyjackass.com/
^language warning.
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Yea just been reading quite a bit, Something regarding the Ferguson effect.

What strikes me is that the media is somewhat at fault.
 
rono_thomas
If they were an unarmed population this would be different? (Excluding the way the government may behave)

Feel like I’m derailing the thread here.
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I'm trying to draw an analogy between Texas and the Catalonians. There was no fear on the part of the government that they would meet an armed resistance while trying to stop a vote for independence. I don't think what happened in Spain would happen in the United States. If what happened in Spain had happened in Guatemala or Iran I think many people in Western countries would mostly have just shrugged and said, oh well that's what happens in those countries. Americans, on the other hand, have the constitutional right to free speech, free assembly and the right to keep and bear arms. I think if the federal government ordered some of their thugs into Texas to prevent a vote on secession, most of those thugs would refuse to go. Those that did go, would not have an easy time of it like they did in Catalonia.

You are right though, I do think we are getting a little off topic.
 
Omfg now I know how Trump got his votes. I wish you all good luck with your right to bear arms! I’m happy here where there are no guns to fear from. A political system with 10+ parties representing all kinds of people. A government that takes care of the people who can’t help themselves, the needy, sick and elderly. A country where we are free to buy drugs if we want. We legally can drink alcohol at 18. (come to think of it, drinking <21 is illegal in the US. Isn’t that taking away their freedom to drink what they want?)
If I ever lose my job, house etc. I know the government will take care of me. Our country has its issues, but I much prefer it too having the risk someone is carrying a gun in my vicinity and not afraid to use it.
 
PocketZeven
Omfg now I know how Trump got his votes. I wish you all good luck with your right to bear arms! I’m happy here where there are no guns to fear from. A political system with 10+ parties representing all kinds of people. A government that takes care of the people who can’t help themselves, the needy, sick and elderly. A country where we are free to buy drugs if we want. We legally can drink alcohol at 18. (come to think of it, drinking <21 is illegal in the US. Isn’t that taking away their freedom to drink what they want?)
If I ever lose my job, house etc. I know the government will take care of me. Our country has its issues, but I much prefer it too having the risk someone is carrying a gun in my vicinity and not afraid to use it.
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RG0BS1U.gif
 
Johnnypenso
I'm trying to draw an analogy between Texas and the Catalonians. There was no fear on the part of the government that they would meet an armed resistance while trying to stop a vote for independence. I don't think what happened in Spain would happen in the United States. If what happened in Spain had happened in Guatemala or Iran I think many people in Western countries would mostly have just shrugged and said, oh well that's what happens in those countries. Americans, on the other hand, have the constitutional right to free speech, free assembly and the right to keep and bear arms. I think if the federal government ordered some of their thugs into Texas to prevent a vote on secession, most of those thugs would refuse to go. Those that did go, would not have an easy time of it like they did in Catalonia.

You are right though, I do think we are getting a little off topic.
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Catalonians are hardly suppressed. You don’t know the nuances of the conflict. It’s more of a “white people” problem. All catalonians have all the rights and freedoms as other Spanish people. There are definitely big issues, but why would it have been better with guns?
 
PocketZeven
Omfg now I know how Trump got his votes. I wish you all good luck with your right to bear arms! I’m happy here where there are no guns to fear from. A political system with 10+ parties representing all kinds of people. A government that takes care of the people who can’t help themselves, the needy, sick and elderly. A country where we are free to buy drugs if we want. We legally can drink alcohol at 18. (come to think of it, drinking <21 is illegal in the US. Isn’t that taking away their freedom to drink what they want?)
If I ever lose my job, house etc. I know the government will take care of me. Our country has its issues, but I much prefer it too having the risk someone is carrying a gun in my vicinity and not afraid to use it.
Click to expand...

You misrepresent the US quite a bit here. I didn't vote for Trump, I don't fear guns, we have 10+ political parties, we have something called medicare and social security for the elderly, and we take care of the needy and sick in this country and many many other countries, we're also in the process of legalizing drugs. We unemployment benefits and welfare. We spend insane amounts of tax dollars on government provided healthcare in the US. The US is socialist... we just don't admit it.

Not that most of that is on topic. You came in here not to question and understand, but to spout and validate. Don't be surprised that you didn't convince anyone.
 
PocketZeven
Our country has its issues, but I much prefer it too having the risk someone is carrying a gun in my vicinity and not afraid to use it.
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You do realise that guns aren't actually banned in our country, right? It just takes a bit longer to get a permit to get hold of one. If you want a Desert Eagle .50, you can. If you want an AR-15, you can.
 
Dennisch
You do realise that guns aren't actually banned in our country, right? It just takes a bit longer to get a permit to get hold of one. If you want a Desert Eagle .50, you can. If you want an AR-15, you can.
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:lol: Awesome.
 
Danoff
You misrepresent the US quite a bit here. I didn't vote for Trump, I don't fear guns, we have 10+ political parties, we have something called medicare and social security for the elderly, and we take care of the needy and sick in this country and many many other countries, we're also in the process of legalizing drugs. We unemployment benefits and welfare. We spend insane amounts of tax dollars on government provided healthcare in the US. The US is socialist... we just don't admit it.

Not that most of that is on topic. You came in here not to question and understand, but to spout and validate. Don't be surprised that you didn't convince anyone.
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I was trying to convey a solution and understand why a lot of Americans don’t seem to care about gun control. I wasn’t saying you personally voted for trump. Although he didn’t get the popular vote (another weird thing about the USA) he got elected as the president. And the president does represent the whole country and it’s citizens to the rest of the world.
 
PocketZeven
Omfg now I know how Trump got his votes. I wish you all good luck with your right to bear arms! I’m happy here where there are no guns to fear from. A political system with 10+ parties representing all kinds of people. A government that takes care of the people who can’t help themselves, the needy, sick and elderly. A country where we are free to buy drugs if we want. We legally can drink alcohol at 18. (come to think of it, drinking <21 is illegal in the US. Isn’t that taking away their freedom to drink what they want?)
If I ever lose my job, house etc. I know the government will take care of me. Our country has its issues, but I much prefer it too having the risk someone is carrying a gun in my vicinity and not afraid to use it.
Click to expand...
bait.jpg
 
Danoff
:lol: Awesome.
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It’s illegal to own a gun in our country. If you want you can apply for a permit. Which requires extensive vetting. But even after getting one there are various rules and restrictions on gun ownership. By banning I of course meant making guns illegal for regular people. My apologies for the misunderstanding.
 
PocketZeven
It’s illegal to own a gun in our country. If you want you can apply for a permit. Which requires extensive vetting. But even after getting one there are various rules and restrictions on gun ownership. By banning I of course meant making guns illegal for regular people. My apologies for the misunderstanding.
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What do you mean "regular" people? People who don't own guns? You're describing a country where gun ownership is legal.
 
PocketZeven
By banning I of course meant making guns illegal for regular people
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The permit makes it legal to own the gun as a regular person.

Join a gun club, shoot a 5mm for a year and attend the club for a minimum amount of times to keep your membership valid and as long as you're healthy in your head and don't have a criminal record you can get pretty much any non-auto weapon money can buy.

Edit.

somewhat related but pointless information:

A legal registered Magnum .357 revolver can be bought for roughly €200.
A unregistered .45 will set you back roughly €750-1000, depending on how many actually made it through customs.
 
MU5T4NG
What's there to fear from someone who has his guns locked in a safe, and only takes his guns to ranges in cases? You Euro nutjobs are crazy.
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Why do you own a gun? And why would you not sell/destroy your gun for the sake of safety?
 
PocketZeven
Why do you own a gun? And why would you not sell/destroy your gun for the sake of safety?
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Why are you so blind to the reasons we own guns to begin with? It's so I can protect myself and my family's life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness if they're in jeopardy.
 

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